Scrolls of Lore Forums  

Go Back   Scrolls of Lore Forums > WarCraft Discussion > World of WarCraft Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #8051  
Old 03-24-2017, 10:04 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

Arch-Druid
Ethenil's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 1,888

Default

So... You don't think Sargeras is incompetent?
Reply With Quote
  #8052  
Old 03-24-2017, 10:39 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

Loremaster
ARM3481's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,905

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethenil View Post
So... You don't think Sargeras is incompetent?
I think he is insofar as he went and made this gigantic demon army to fulfill his goals, and it not only can't do the most important thing he created it to do, but doesn't even seem to be in on the main plan, resulting in his own actions undermining the Legion's ability to do what it does best at a time when its success is most vital to his mission.

Imagine if instead of summoning Sargeras in the WotA, the Legion had kept the Well focused solely on increasing the flow of demonic reinforcements that much more. Or if Archimonde had used the captured Demon Soul to effortlessly blast the Azerothian armies to pieces the way Deathwing did. Or if Archimonde had just kept amassing Scourge and Legion troops in the EK during the Third War until everything was overrun and Kalimdor couldn't hope to stand against such enormous numbers? Or if Gul'dan had been using the Nightwell to open more huge portals and bring in even more demons instead of messing around with implanting Sargeras into Illidan's body?

Frankly the Legion should have won everyone one of these wars by sheer numbers and attrition, but instead the inevitable pursuit of this or that MacGuffin to summon the fallen titan diverts their time and resources, culminating in said MacGuffin invariably being turned against them and completely demolishing their invasion.

Whether it's truly necessary or not, Sargeras' constant desire to personally show up keeps screwing his own army over, and based on that cinematic Kil'jaeden seems to be getting more than a little infuriated by it. Like maybe he's starting to realize that after plowing over millions of worlds one-sidedly, for some reason from the start Sargeras has kept insisting that the Legion not do on Azeroth what's worked so well everywhere else, and the result has been failure after failure.

Maybe it's pure incompetence, or maybe it's indirect incompetence by way of not informing his servants of his own reasoning, but either way I feel like just maybe Kil'jaeden has recognized a pattern and started to wonder if Sargeras doesn't really know what he's doing, or perhaps worse still, deceived him about everything from the start.

Last edited by ARM3481; 03-24-2017 at 10:42 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #8053  
Old 03-24-2017, 10:56 PM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

Elune
Ganishka's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: In a nice, warm, padded room
Posts: 8,081
BattleTag: Ganishka #1520

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
I think he is insofar as he went and made this gigantic demon army to fulfill his goals, and it not only can't do the most important thing he created it to do, but doesn't even seem to be in on the main plan, resulting in his own actions undermining the Legion's ability to do what it does best at a time when its success is most vital to his mission.

Imagine if instead of summoning Sargeras in the WotA, the Legion had kept the Well focused solely on increasing the flow of demonic reinforcements that much more. Or if Archimonde had used the captured Demon Soul to effortlessly blast the Azerothian armies to pieces the way Deathwing did. Or if Archimonde had just kept amassing Scourge and Legion troops in the EK during the Third War until everything was overrun and Kalimdor couldn't hope to stand against such enormous numbers? Or if Gul'dan had been using the Nightwell to open more huge portals and bring in even more demons instead of messing around with implanting Sargeras into Illidan's body?

Frankly the Legion should have won everyone one of these wars by sheer numbers and attrition, but instead the inevitable pursuit of this or that MacGuffin to summon the fallen titan diverts their time and resources, culminating in said MacGuffin invariably being turned against them and completely demolishing their invasion.

Whether it's truly necessary or not, Sargeras' constant desire to personally show up keeps screwing his own army over, and based on that cinematic Kil'jaeden seems to be getting more than a little infuriated by it. Like maybe he's starting to realize that after plowing over millions of worlds one-sidedly, for some reason from the start Sargeras has kept insisting that the Legion not do on Azeroth what's worked so well everywhere else, and the result has been failure after failure.

Maybe it's pure incompetence, or maybe it's indirect incompetence by way of not informing his servants of his own reasoning, but either way I feel like just maybe Kil'jaeden has recognized a pattern and started to wonder if Sargeras doesn't really know what he's doing, or perhaps worse still, deceived him about everything from the start.
What about if Sargeras himself is ignorant of how much he is screwing up, by letting something he never expected, constantly screw with his goals? Sargeras has likely never felt romantic "love" before, like most mortal men have, and him having the hots for Azeroth has blinded him to his mission, leading him to constantly hold back his troops and not tell them that he has been smitten by the love bug, leading to their failures because he doesn't want them to destroy the thing he lusts after.
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Baras
A blind, deaf, comatose, lobotomy patient could feel MY ANGER!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowordfun
The next time you feel like you're about to be triggered, put the barrel in your mouth.

Last edited by Ganishka; 03-24-2017 at 10:59 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #8054  
Old 03-25-2017, 01:49 AM
Aram Aram is offline

Owl Scout
Aram's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 13

Default

Reply With Quote
  #8055  
Old 03-25-2017, 02:58 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

Elune
Lord Grimtale's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The Slaughtered Lamb
Posts: 21,423
BattleTag: Grimtale67#1407

Default

Damn, the Rogue mount is fucking cool. The kind of mount I've always wanted.
Reply With Quote
  #8056  
Old 03-25-2017, 03:38 AM
Rexxar Rexxar is online now

Archer
Rexxar's Avatar
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Durotar atm
Posts: 27

Default

the animations on these are pretty lame but the warrior just fucking PUNCHES his protodrake in the face lollll
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #8057  
Old 03-25-2017, 07:40 AM
Gromak Gromak is offline

Eternal
Gromak's Avatar
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Germany
Posts: 4,465

Default

I like how the DK sequence is basically the Wrath cinematic of Arthas reviving Sindragosa...only shittier.
Reply With Quote
  #8058  
Old 03-25-2017, 07:44 AM
Drusus Drusus is offline

Elune
Drusus's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Greymane's Offensive
Posts: 8,422

Default



__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Odok View Post
You're like a mental gymnast of hate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feltongue View Post
you're the edgemaster 9000 with the leet memes who's close second to Gurzog in shitposting.


Avatar sauce
Reply With Quote
  #8059  
Old 03-25-2017, 07:55 AM
Joeygiggles Joeygiggles is offline

Sentinel Queen
Joeygiggles's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 829
BattleTag: Joeygiggles#1104

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drusus View Post
<snip>
The more disturbing thing is that the Alliance wins, I almost wish they got rid of factions for PvP and threw everyone into Red vs Blue for the BG
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #8060  
Old 03-25-2017, 10:00 AM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

Arch-Druid
Ethenil's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 1,888

Default

@ARM3481

Do you think it's possible Sargeras is actually pretty competent in what he is actually planning? In that there may be something more to him?

Or the theory that he knows that if the Legion takes over Azeroth, the Old Gods will take over the Legion.
Reply With Quote
  #8061  
Old 03-25-2017, 10:10 AM
Mertico Mertico is offline

Elune
Mertico's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 6,275

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joeygiggles View Post
The more disturbing thing is that the Alliance wins, I almost wish they got rid of factions for PvP and threw everyone into Red vs Blue for the BG
They should and race should have no impact on performance there.
Reply With Quote
  #8062  
Old 03-25-2017, 10:28 AM
Thornedale Thornedale is offline

Chimaera
Thornedale's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 264

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethenil View Post
@ARM3481
Or the theory that he knows that if the Legion takes over Azeroth, the Old Gods will take over the Legion.
I know you asked ARM, but still.
My take on it -- if Sargeras intervening and failing every time will be presented as intentional and part of the plan\etc. (it might not be the case, in the end) -- is that we're dealing with shoddy\cliche\simplistic writing for a serialized fantasy game universe being justified from within said universe. It's not the same as mending a plot hole or coming up with a backstory for a character or introducing context and depth where there was none before. It's not even explaining a retcon by means of in-universe events or making that which previously was just an obvious piece of game mechanics as something lore significant.

It's more like pretending retroactively with a straight face that a recurring antagonist or a theme in a series of books lost or occured not because such was the structure of the stories and the need to make new parts that structurally would be pretty much the same as the original, for obvious reasons, but because -- surprise, surprise -- that was his plan all along, which you discover in the last installment. And that's cheap.
Reply With Quote
  #8063  
Old 03-25-2017, 11:02 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

Loremaster
ARM3481's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,905

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thornedale View Post
I know you asked ARM, but still.
My take on it -- if Sargeras intervening and failing every time will be presented as intentional and part of the plan\etc. (it might not be the case, in the end) -- is that we're dealing with shoddy\cliche\simplistic writing for a serialized fantasy game universe being justified from within said universe. It's not the same as mending a plot hole or coming up with a backstory for a character or introducing context and depth where there was none before. It's not even explaining a retcon by means of in-universe events or making that which previously was just an obvious piece of game mechanics as something lore significant.

It's more like pretending retroactively with a straight face that a recurring antagonist or a theme in a series of books lost or occurred not because such was the structure of the stories and the need to make new parts that structurally would be pretty much the same as the original, for obvious reasons, but because -- surprise, surprise -- that was his plan all along, which you discover in the last installment. And that's cheap.
I.e. it would be Diablo 3's handling of Diablo: A means to shoddily restore the "threat" of a villain who's been defeated repeatedly by writing it off as "well, he actually meant to fail every time."

Except it would be an even less necessary and more wasteful writing tactic with Sargeras. Each personal defeat of him has just been an attempt to reach Azeroth; there's no call for retroactively making excuses for him by turning it into a convoluted Xanatos Gambit because they don't need to explain away his full power being stomped out by a bunch of mortals.

Last edited by ARM3481; 03-25-2017 at 11:06 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #8064  
Old 03-25-2017, 11:08 AM
Kellick Kellick is online now

Site Staff - Moderator
Kellick's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 10,939
BattleTag: Pyrolithic#1538

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
I.e. it would be Diablo 3's handling of Diablo: A means to shoddily restore the "threat" of a villain who's been defeated repeatedly by writing it off as "well, he actually meant to fail every time."

Except it would be an even less necessary and more wasteful writing tactic with Sargeras. Each personal defeat of him has just been an attempt to reach Azeroth; there's no call for retroactively making excuses for him by turning it into a convoluted Xanatos Gambit because they don't need to explain away his full power being stomped out by a bunch of mortals.
I don't think we even need to step out of the franchise to find an analogy for this type of plan.

Consider the events of Wrath of the Lich King consist of "Ha ha! You've fallen for my devious plan of systematically killing off my strongest minions so that I could have a shot at killing and raising your heroes!".
Reply With Quote
  #8065  
Old 03-25-2017, 11:14 AM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

Arch-Druid
Ethenil's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 1,888

Default

And how are you okay with Sargeras, a Titan, being so incompetent and useless?
Reply With Quote
  #8066  
Old 03-25-2017, 11:30 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

Loremaster
ARM3481's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,905

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethenil View Post
And how are you okay with Sargeras, a Titan, being so incompetent and useless?
The moment he decided upon his current course he showed that he didn't know what he was doing. From day one of his crusade the guy has been operating from a deeply flawed position and in all likelihood playing directly into the Void's hands.

The Legion can't stop the Void. Only the Light can, and Sargeras has been running around exterminating millions of worlds that otherwise might have eventually helped. His first and only response to the threat has been to pursue the worst possible course of action and slaughter the Pantheon for daring to offer up a potentially viable alternative. That's pretty damned incompetent right there.
Reply With Quote
  #8067  
Old 03-25-2017, 12:06 PM
Hammerbrew Hammerbrew is offline

Elune
Hammerbrew's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 9,460

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
The moment he decided upon his current course he showed that he didn't know what he was doing. From day one of his crusade the guy has been operating from a deeply flawed position and in all likelihood playing directly into the Void's hands.

The Legion can't stop the Void. Only the Light can, and Sargeras has been running around exterminating millions of worlds that otherwise might have eventually helped. His first and only response to the threat has been to pursue the worst possible course of action and slaughter the Pantheon for daring to offer up a potentially viable alternative. That's pretty damned incompetent right there.
All of this.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frostwolf View Post
Why would I want to play some cunt in a dress with hands softer than a baby's belly when I can be a hulking motherfucker wearing spiked pauldrons the size of your mother's sweet ass and a loincloth that barely conceals the massive erection I'm rocking?
Reply With Quote
  #8068  
Old 03-25-2017, 12:27 PM
Thornedale Thornedale is offline

Chimaera
Thornedale's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 264

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
I.e. it would be Diablo 3's handling of Diablo: A means to shoddily restore the "threat" of a villain who's been defeated repeatedly by writing it off as "well, he actually meant to fail every time.".
Pretty much, yes.

***

Sargeras' plan (the way we know it, without any gambits) would've made some sense if we had any additional metaphysical context for it. Say, if he could actually back his claims with means by which he could reforge the world to be "resistant" to the Void. Is it by turning the population into demons (while killing those unwilling\resisting)? What if the Twisting Nether itself, its peculiar nature of a parallel energy "universe", and "binding" of demonic souls to it, is something that is instrumental for Sargeras' plan? We don't know, of course, but I am just wondering.

Thinking about it, perhaps at the core of this plan might reside the idea of "side-stepping" from the conflict of the Void and the Light into a reality that is antagonistic and seemingly autonomous from both -- or making such an existence possible.

Here's my train of thought. TN could fit the description; and perhaps the fact that demons can't be permanently killed in the "normal" universe but can be permanently killed in TN, implies that this physical reality cannot limit them fundamentally, thus less "real" for demons, while TN is completely "real" for them. And perhaps that is what Sargeras is trying to achieve: to dismantle the limits (isn't that the most demonic thing to do? remember Medivh-Sargeras speaking about crushing the confines of the clockwork universe?) while collecting as many beings as possible and destroying the rest. "Clean forms" are prone to the Void, and the Light is not an option for him.
What if he realises\considers that material universe's demise is inevitable and that explains why he doesn't care about defending\ordering it, but is rather eager to destroy it? Chaos of TN for everyone; fel is the "fire" in which material universe will be "recast".
What if the apparent transgressiveness of demons (brutality, domination, lust, etc.) is not just something ultimately unimportant, but necessary for beings to "transcend" the "limits" to acquire "autonomy" and to "side-step"; and that is why demons are the way they are? An attempt to go "beyond good and evil" based on, say, will, or strong emotions, etc.

And so on.

Last edited by Thornedale; 03-25-2017 at 12:38 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #8069  
Old 03-25-2017, 12:51 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

Elune
Mertico's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 6,275

Default

I forgot to mention that the rogue mount cinematic was pretty much what I said the lore behind it was.
Reply With Quote
  #8070  
Old 03-25-2017, 01:22 PM
Leviathon Leviathon is offline

Elune
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 20,798
BattleTag: Leviathonlx#1820

Default

The Paladin one still amuses me how the character just keeps thumbs upping the horse.
Reply With Quote
  #8071  
Old 03-25-2017, 02:43 PM
Arakiba Arakiba is offline

Elune
Arakiba's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 7,290

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aram View Post
Neat. I like the DK one emulating the Lich King.

Also the Warrior one is amusing. Odyn points, drake just lands in front of you, roars, and then gets sucker punched into obedience.
Reply With Quote
  #8072  
Old Yesterday, 10:33 AM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

Elune
Ruinshin's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Hawaii
Posts: 19,514

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
The moment he decided upon his current course he showed that he didn't know what he was doing. From day one of his crusade the guy has been operating from a deeply flawed position and in all likelihood playing directly into the Void's hands.

The Legion can't stop the Void. Only the Light can, and Sargeras has been running around exterminating millions of worlds that otherwise might have eventually helped. His first and only response to the threat has been to pursue the worst possible course of action and slaughter the Pantheon for daring to offer up a potentially viable alternative. That's pretty damned incompetent right there.
I disagree.

Sargeras is very competent.

Just not very smart.
__________________
“Disguised in a handlebar mustache with a ten gallon hat hanging low against his brow, Loki moseyed into Odin's party, despite the fact that he wasn't invited. Being dressed like Juan Valdez in a room full of people dawning Viking braids and pointy horned hats, however, tended to call attention to oneself. Odin's wife, Frigg, noticed Loki the moment that he stepped through the door, “What the Hel are you doing here? You weren't invited.”
Reply With Quote
  #8073  
Old Yesterday, 11:07 AM
MyMindWontQuiet MyMindWontQuiet is offline

Huntress
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 48

Default

Sargeras is as competent and smart as an enemy of ours can be. The reason he cannot win and annihilate us all is that it would end both the story and the game immediately. So he has to lose, always.
Reply With Quote
  #8074  
Old Yesterday, 11:11 AM
Mertico Mertico is offline

Elune
Mertico's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 6,275

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MyMindWontQuiet View Post
Sargeras is as competent and smart as an enemy of ours can be. The reason he cannot win and annihilate us all is that it would end both the story and the game immediately. So he has to lose, always.
What if he wins but it just resets everything?
Reply With Quote
  #8075  
Old Yesterday, 11:31 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

Sentinel Queen
Krainz's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: 7-1
Posts: 997
BattleTag: Krainz#1972

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mertico View Post
What if he wins but it just resets everything?
Xenosaga?
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arterius View Post
Nah. We're the Good Scourge. The Ebon Blade is at least raising dead people into unholy mockeries of life so they can go kick demon ass, as opposed to Sylvanas "I need to create a bunch of meat shields to protect me because otherwise I might suffer consequences for my actions" Windrunner.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
world of warcraft, wow legion

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:50 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.