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  #26  
Old 11-06-2018, 06:44 AM
Vineyard Vineyard is offline

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What I personally find funny is how this gives us actually an even more acurate representation of Strateholme than currently in WoW.

He already discussed some time ago, that lots of the mountains in EPL at the border to QT are most likely there because of game mechanical reasons (aka. QT not being part of Classic WoW and being on the TBC server.)

But here..... *Points to the Eastwall Gate*
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  #27  
Old 11-07-2018, 09:43 AM
Sonneillon Sonneillon is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
I wonder if "Rend" and "Maim" will be retitled.

Hmm. I wonder if the naval battles in Frozen Throne will be retooled (including the Outland ones), or if they'll be eliminated. But man... can you imagine a separate naval tech tree for the four factions (or five, with Naga) as distinct as the land and air tech trees are?

I'm just dreaming. It won't happen; no demand for it. But right now, I'm probably not going to buy this - just because I don't buy many games anymore. If they make the naval trees distinct and sexy, though, I totally would.
Yeah there not being naval battles was a let down for me about Warcraft 3
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  #28  
Old 11-08-2018, 12:59 PM
BoxCrayonTales BoxCrayonTales is offline

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I am happy because it means I will be able to replay this game after years of ignoring it and it might inject some life into the flagging RTS and modding communities.

Unfortunately the lore has received so many retcons in the interim that I can no longer care for the actual lore of Warcraft. It is too much of a mess for me to follow anymore.

I was originally introduced through Warcraft 3 so I wasn't confused by the newly retconned backstory involving the burning legion and the night elves and such. But after reading about Warcraft 1 and 2, I realize that Warcraft 3 was a mistake.

The whole generic doomsday villain cliche no longer holds appeal for me. I like the idea behind Warcraft 1 and 2 because the villains are not generic doomsday villains. The orcs are invading Azeroth in pursuit of resources since their homeland is a dying world, and they don't care about the human lives they are displacing to do it. This is completely believable given our own history.

Shoehorning in all that stuff about generic evil gods and their demonic legions trying to destroy the universe just makes everything look like childish scribbles.

The Warcraft Chronicle retroactively rendered every conflict pointless because the universe is doomed anyway. The titans cannot do anything to stop the void and it will eventually consume the universe, and the demons' solution is to destroy the universe even faster. This is nihilistic garbage.

Warcraft 3 still suffers the problem of generic doomsday villains. None of the factions actually have their own motives, and solely react to the first strikes of the Burning Legion. Without the demons, I doubt there would have ever been a third war.

If you have the armies of Alliance, Horde, Sentinels and Scourge, what kind of remotely sympathetic or at least believable reason would they have to come into conflict without the intervention of plot device demons?
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  #29  
Old 11-08-2018, 05:16 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Originally Posted by BoxCrayonTales View Post
If you have the armies of Alliance, Horde, Sentinels and Scourge, what kind of remotely sympathetic or at least believable reason would they have to come into conflict without the intervention of plot device demons?
The rise of Arthas is enough reason to do so
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  #30  
Old 11-08-2018, 06:37 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by BoxCrayonTales View Post
I am happy because it means I will be able to replay this game after years of ignoring it and it might inject some life into the flagging RTS and modding communities.

Unfortunately the lore has received so many retcons in the interim that I can no longer care for the actual lore of Warcraft. It is too much of a mess for me to follow anymore.

I was originally introduced through Warcraft 3 so I wasn't confused by the newly retconned backstory involving the burning legion and the night elves and such. But after reading about Warcraft 1 and 2, I realize that Warcraft 3 was a mistake.

The whole generic doomsday villain cliche no longer holds appeal for me. I like the idea behind Warcraft 1 and 2 because the villains are not generic doomsday villains. The orcs are invading Azeroth in pursuit of resources since their homeland is a dying world, and they don't care about the human lives they are displacing to do it. This is completely believable given our own history.

Shoehorning in all that stuff about generic evil gods and their demonic legions trying to destroy the universe just makes everything look like childish scribbles.

The Warcraft Chronicle retroactively rendered every conflict pointless because the universe is doomed anyway. The titans cannot do anything to stop the void and it will eventually consume the universe, and the demons' solution is to destroy the universe even faster. This is nihilistic garbage.

Warcraft 3 still suffers the problem of generic doomsday villains. None of the factions actually have their own motives, and solely react to the first strikes of the Burning Legion. Without the demons, I doubt there would have ever been a third war.

If you have the armies of Alliance, Horde, Sentinels and Scourge, what kind of remotely sympathetic or at least believable reason would they have to come into conflict without the intervention of plot device demons?
I'm at peace with WCIII. Its gameplay and tech tree diversity are just... fantastic. And its lore, while not always my cup of tea, has its own appeal as well.

If they were hobbits? WCI and WCII would be Merry and Pippen. WCIII would be Frodo and Sam.

I may not buy the Reforged, but you can bet I'll watch a Let's Play on Youtube.
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  #31  
Old 11-08-2018, 09:21 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Would you grab it if people made custom naval maps and campaigns?
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  #32  
Old 11-09-2018, 03:30 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Would you grab it if people made custom naval maps and campaigns?
I'd need naval tech trees as distinct as the land and air tech trees, instead of everyone buying the same things from a Goblin Shipyard. The Command and Conquer/Red Alert series has managed that for decades.

OR I'd probably get it if there was a new human campaign based on Jaina... or someone who wasn't Arthas. I've mentioned before that one of my biases is I can't enjoy Arthas as an Alliance hero in the same way that I can't enjoy Anakin Skywalker as a Jedi hero. I want to play an Alliance story and feel like my characters are loyal to the Alliance. I know many people don't feel this way, but that's just me.

Frozen Throne breathed new life into the Alliance and Horde tech trees, but it offered no story campaign for either. Wouldn't that be something, if Reforged offered us two new campaigns for Alliance and Horde in the Frozen Throne era? The first use of Demolishers and the Tauren reunion with Spirit Walkers... the Dragon Hawk and Gryphon Riders flying side by side... I'd pay if that were in an official campaign.

The point is I'd need something big and new. Not just better graphics and altered cutscenes. Those I can just watch on Youtube, while playing the original WCIII.

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 11-09-2018 at 05:23 AM..
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  #33  
Old 11-09-2018, 05:22 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
OR I'd probably get it if there was a new human campaign based on Jaina... or someone who wasn't Arthas. I've mentioned before that one of my biases is I can't enjoy Arthas as an Alliance hero in the same way that I can't enjoy Anakin Skywalker as a Jedi hero. I want to play an Alliance story and feel like my characters are loyal to the Alliance. I know many people don't feel this way, but that's just me.
A bit off-topic but did you see the Kul Tiras cutscenes and cinematics from BFA?

The nation looks like the most awesome powerhouse I've ever seen in those, and that's a Horde fan saying that.
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  #34  
Old 11-09-2018, 05:47 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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A bit off-topic but did you see the Kul Tiras cutscenes and cinematics from BFA?

The nation looks like the most awesome powerhouse I've ever seen in those, and that's a Horde fan saying that.
Oh, I'll watch them soon. I'll watch all the cutscenes. But if it's the same gameplay...

EDIT: Of course the answer is fan content from a possibly improved editor. We'll see what time brings.

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 11-09-2018 at 05:58 AM..
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  #35  
Old 11-09-2018, 09:04 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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EDIT: Of course the answer is fan content from a possibly improved editor. We'll see what time brings.
Well, if nothing else, you can bet on Second (and maybe other) War campaigns based on my fanwork. Or maybe an enhanced version of canon. Will be hard to decide, but one of these, oh yes.

Last edited by Marthen; 11-09-2018 at 09:07 AM..
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  #36  
Old 11-09-2018, 01:35 PM
BoxCrayonTales BoxCrayonTales is offline

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The rise of Arthas is enough reason to do so
Why is he rising? What is his motivation? Why did he go from a prince of Lordaeron saving people from the undead to joining them? What is the motivation of the undead without the Burning Legion forcing them to help destroy the world? What actually happens in a story without the Legion to force the plot in a certain direction?
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  #37  
Old 11-09-2018, 02:30 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoxCrayonTales View Post
Why is he rising?
He achieves victory after victory in Lordaeron's wars (against the Horde, against other kingdoms, against the Scourge).

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Originally Posted by BoxCrayonTales View Post
What is his motivation?
Make Humanity Great Again.

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Why did he go from a prince of Lordaeron saving people from the undead to joining them?
He saw the Cult of the Damned and the might of necromancy more worthy of Lordaeron than the weak Light with its washed up Paladins.

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What is the motivation of the undead without the Burning Legion forcing them to help destroy the world?
To destroy the infidels and spread their paradise.

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Originally Posted by BoxCrayonTales View Post
What actually happens in a story without the Legion to force the plot in a certain direction?
Vanilla?
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  #38  
Old 11-09-2018, 02:55 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Originally Posted by BoxCrayonTales View Post
Why is he rising? What is his motivation? Why did he go from a prince of Lordaeron saving people from the undead to joining them? What is the motivation of the undead without the Burning Legion forcing them to help destroy the world? What actually happens in a story without the Legion to force the plot in a certain direction?
Exclude the Burning Legion and keep the Cult of the Damned's promises of eternal life plus Ner'zhul's thirst of ambition. You'll have the same Arthas, the same Scourge and the same Lordaeron.
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  #39  
Old 11-09-2018, 05:04 PM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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Humans look bad, the realistic look clashing with the cartoony armor and environment. Everything else looks ok, would have preferred a remake of the first two games. WC3 plays fine already on modern PC's and the gameplay is more fluid than any RTS to this day.
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  #40  
Old 11-09-2018, 07:18 PM
Ujimasa Hojo Ujimasa Hojo is online now

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Would you be amenable to WC1 and WC2 being dlcs within WC3 Reforged?
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  #41  
Old 11-10-2018, 06:22 AM
BoxCrayonTales BoxCrayonTales is offline

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Would you be amenable to WC1 and WC2 being dlcs within WC3 Reforged?
Blizzard said they would never remaster the old games because they were not fun to play anymore.

There are some extremely faithful remakes of WC1 and Tides of Darkness (not Dark Portal, sorry), but the gameplay of the old titles does not translate well into the WC3 engine. It simply doesn't look fun compared to WC3 gameplay.

There are some custom campaigns like Fall of the Lion and Coming of the Horde which are based on the lore of WC1 and WC2 but use the gameplay of WC3. They are archived by hiveworkshop and I believe there are let's play on youtube.

Hopefully WC3R will inspire remasters of these old campaigns (especially considering the advertised backwards compatibility makes that much easier) as well as attempts to remake WC1 and WC2 with WC3 gameplay.

I remember years ago I used to frequent mapping sites and discovered countless campaigns, game movies, original fantasy universes and such. Creativity was at an all time high. I hope we can see that return to the modern day.
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  #42  
Old 11-10-2018, 07:27 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Would you be amenable to WC1 and WC2 being dlcs within WC3 Reforged?
Yes, actually, I'd prefer them as even though as an old Warcraft II grongard, I love the game, the gameplay simply is outdated, and if you revamp it, you might as well do it similar to Warcraft III. My only condition would be improved naval combat and full tech trees (including oil as a resource for naval stuff).

And frankly, I feel Blizzard will likely do this instead of remastering Warcraft II. Which is why am I hesistant basing my eventual Second War campaign on canon, might be doing a pointless work, and more in favor on basing them on the canon of my fanwork (which as some might remember is fairly different from current canon as is basically "what if Warcraft stayed true to Warcraft II thematically and factually").
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  #43  
Old 11-10-2018, 07:43 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Crossed Axes (War2)

You know what they need? A campaign that uses WoW Battlegrounds as RTS battles. Alterac Valley and all that stuff.

If they had a level for Tol Barad and did it extremely well, that'd satisfy a WoW reference along with a fresh breath of WCII atmosphere.
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  #44  
Old 11-10-2018, 09:21 AM
Ujimasa Hojo Ujimasa Hojo is online now

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
Yes, actually, I'd prefer them as even though as an old Warcraft II grongard, I love the game, the gameplay simply is outdated, and if you revamp it, you might as well do it similar to Warcraft III. My only condition would be improved naval combat and full tech trees (including oil as a resource for naval stuff).

And frankly, I feel Blizzard will likely do this instead of remastering Warcraft II. Which is why am I hesistant basing my eventual Second War campaign on canon, might be doing a pointless work, and more in favor on basing them on the canon of my fanwork (which as some might remember is fairly different from current canon as is basically "what if Warcraft stayed true to Warcraft II thematically and factually").
Unfortunately, having oil as a third resource aside from gold and lumber would kinda require reprogramming? of the main game engine. Best case scenario would be to just diversify the ships so that they aren't just carbon copies of each other.
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  #45  
Old 11-10-2018, 09:56 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Unfortunately, having oil as a third resource aside from gold and lumber would kinda require reprogramming? of the main game engine. Best case scenario would be to just diversify the ships so that they aren't just carbon copies of each other.
I've seen mods managing it, so I don't think it would be that hard for them to do so. They are already adding new things to the engine as per Blizzcon anyway.
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  #46  
Old 11-10-2018, 10:19 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Unfortunately, having oil as a third resource aside from gold and lumber would kinda require reprogramming? of the main game engine. Best case scenario would be to just diversify the ships so that they aren't just carbon copies of each other.
I'd just use lumber. And have "oil refineries" collecting said lumber. The selling point of naval warfare in WC2 is way more the tech trees than the resource management.
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  #47  
Old 11-10-2018, 11:55 AM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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There is right now a WC2 remake on Hiveworkshop of both campaigns with the same map layout, unit placements, resources and overall models. If someone in their basement can do that then Blizz has no excuse.
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  #48  
Old 11-10-2018, 12:14 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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I'd just use lumber. And have "oil refineries" collecting said lumber. The selling point of naval warfare in WC2 is way more the tech trees than the resource management.
It is not about resource management only, it is how resource node placement and availability alters the meta and the strategy. Any naval based map should have at least some sort of water based resources nodes.

A possible solution to replace oil would be for the refineries to produce gold instead (feels far more thematically appropriate than lumber and easier to design) and reduce the number of gold mines on naval focused maps so that players need to fight over these nodes.
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  #49  
Old 11-10-2018, 05:41 PM
Triceron Triceron is offline

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There is right now a WC2 remake on Hiveworkshop of both campaigns with the same map layout, unit placements, resources and overall models. If someone in their basement can do that then Blizz has no excuse.
If someone in their basement already did it in War3 then they have the best excuse not to do it.

Last edited by Triceron; 11-10-2018 at 08:02 PM..
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  #50  
Old 11-11-2018, 12:44 AM
Ujimasa Hojo Ujimasa Hojo is online now

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Those Manhours, man.
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