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  #51  
Old 12-23-2017, 03:41 AM
Morvant Morvant is offline

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It's one thing to attack the argumentation instead of the argument, it's yet another to actually do so while doing the exact thing you seem to so vehemently reproach to other.

You are defending your own personal preferences, your own fanon, based on bits and pieces of lore of various games of the series you chose to select, and other you chose to ignore.

I actually have absolutely zero problem with that, I greatly enjoy that sort of thing.

As long as everyone is aware that this is a discussion going between people who come from vastly different perspective, both in term of preferences, interpretation of the lore, or you know, just language. And that when wall of arguments are being exchanged, informations is bound to be lost or misinterpreted.

You seem to consider that the latter is detrimental to the conversation ( while doing it yourself ). I consider that it is a pretty important part of the discussion. It helps reach a point of mutual understanding. To see what perspective the other is coming from.

Which is why I chose to display my personal heavy bias ( as in : I consider that Tyrande behaviour is absolutely nonsensical ) before making the tad less subjective point ( as in : I don't see how punctual use of goblin tech in the larger context of a world ending threat is at all meaningful ).

I also chose to quote a lot because I find it helps clarify what part of your argument I am referring to, especially considering that you seem to over interpret great part of what is being said.

If you find all those thing annoying, then yes, we can stop the discussion here.

I would nonetheless advise you to consider that you are yourself misinterpreting/missing a lot of what others are saying, and that your own points are far from being as clear and well structured as you seem to expect others' to be.

And sorry for the zinger, but you come out as pretty caustic yourself :p.
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  #52  
Old 12-23-2017, 07:45 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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This thread proves the reason why Blizzard can't ever please Night Elf fans.

They're too deeply submerged in their own conceptions of what Night Elves should be.

Burn, twig, burn.

EDIT: I also see important details being omitted when inputting arguments and thoughts, which end up making it more a discussion about the speakers rather than what's been talked about. Really?
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  #53  
Old 12-23-2017, 09:19 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morvant View Post
It's one thing to attack the argumentation instead of the argument, it's yet another to actually do so while doing the exact thing you seem to so vehemently reproach to other.

You are defending your own personal preferences, your own fanon, based on bits and pieces of lore of various games of the series you chose to select, and other you chose to ignore.

I actually have absolutely zero problem with that, I greatly enjoy that sort of thing.

As long as everyone is aware that this is a discussion going between people who come from vastly different perspective, both in term of preferences, interpretation of the lore, or you know, just language. And that when wall of arguments are being exchanged, informations is bound to be lost or misinterpreted.

You seem to consider that the latter is detrimental to the conversation ( while doing it yourself ). I consider that it is a pretty important part of the discussion. It helps reach a point of mutual understanding. To see what perspective the other is coming from.

Which is why I chose to display my personal heavy bias ( as in : I consider that Tyrande behaviour is absolutely nonsensical ) before making the tad less subjective point ( as in : I don't see how punctual use of goblin tech in the larger context of a world ending threat is at all meaningful ).

I also chose to quote a lot because I find it helps clarify what part of your argument I am referring to, especially considering that you seem to over interpret great part of what is being said.

If you find all those thing annoying, then yes, we can stop the discussion here.

I would nonetheless advise you to consider that you are yourself misinterpreting/missing a lot of what others are saying, and that your own points are far from being as clear and well structured as you seem to expect others' to be.

And sorry for the zinger, but you come out as pretty caustic yourself :p.
So first, I'm sorry for coming off as caustic as I have. The thread absolutely wasn't intended to get as overheated as I think it has.

You are correct in saying that yes, we are exchanging personal preferences in sharing ideas as to what could have been, I never intended to exempt myself from that or pretend that everyone should like what I like.

I can also see (to an extent, not completely) what you mean when you say that I haven't been clear. I have spilled a lot of digital ink trying to clean up a messily presented idea that contains elements that, upon consideration, don't make sense to include. I believe I have done that now, but I'm certainly willing to clarify anything that still seems out of bounds.

Either way, I'm sorry for snapping at you in the last post especially. That sort of thing doesn't have a place in what's intended to be a fun thing about what could have been different in WoW for the Night Elves.
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  #54  
Old 12-23-2017, 11:48 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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I know this may seem like more of a gameplay concern, but if I could change one thing about night elves it's the fact that their PotMs are represented by WoW's priest class. Instead of just Trueshot Aura (Yes, this was a vanilla passive ability.), I would also have given Searing Arrows and perhaps even Starfall, thereby not only representing PotMs more accurately but also making hunters a far more interesting class than they are. As a bonus, religions in WoW would've been less homogenised.

Hopefully Searing Arrows will eventually get added as a passive hunter ability, alongside a glyph to turn Volley into WC3's Starfall, but I doubt it.
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  #55  
Old 12-23-2017, 06:44 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
I know this may seem like more of a gameplay concern, but if I could change one thing about night elves it's the fact that their PotMs are represented by WoW's priest class. Instead of just Trueshot Aura (Yes, this was a vanilla passive ability.), I would also have given Searing Arrows and perhaps even Starfall, thereby not only representing PotMs more accurately but also making hunters a far more interesting class than they are. As a bonus, religions in WoW would've been less homogenised.

Hopefully Searing Arrows will eventually get added as a passive hunter ability, alongside a glyph to turn Volley into WC3's Starfall, but I doubt it.
The treatment of Night Elven priestesses as garden variety priests did annoy me as well. It diluted the whole idea of priestesses of the moon where hunters frankly would have been more appropriate.

I'm not sure if they needed Starfall for Night Elf hunters off of the bat. They could have done it (back in Vanilla they did give Night Elf priests their own ability), but the real matter is the swapping of armor and bows for robes and the docile motif that comes with it.
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  #56  
Old 12-25-2017, 04:16 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
The treatment of Night Elven priestesses as garden variety priests did annoy me as well. It diluted the whole idea of priestesses of the moon where hunters frankly would have been more appropriate.

I'm not sure if they needed Starfall for Night Elf hunters off of the bat. They could have done it (back in Vanilla they did give Night Elf priests their own ability), but the real matter is the swapping of armor and bows for robes and the docile motif that comes with it.
True, just casually mentioning that night elf hunters are PotMs would have been enough for me too. But as someone with a hunter main, I'd liked them to pump my class.

WC3 had 4 heroes Blizzard could have drawn inspiration from, 5 if you count the High Elf Ranger. Out of those, they've only used the Beastmaster and the Dark Ranger; cool for the Forsaken, but out of the 4 elf-kin archers, you'd think they'd go for the two living elves first. Giving hunter Black Arrow is kinda like giving paladins a Death Knight ability.
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  #57  
Old 12-25-2017, 08:21 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
True, just casually mentioning that night elf hunters are PotMs would have been enough for me too. But as someone with a hunter main, I'd liked them to pump my class.

WC3 had 4 heroes Blizzard could have drawn inspiration from, 5 if you count the High Elf Ranger. Out of those, they've only used the Beastmaster and the Dark Ranger; cool for the Forsaken, but out of the 4 elf-kin archers, you'd think they'd go for the two living elves first. Giving hunter Black Arrow is kinda like giving paladins a Death Knight ability.
Trueshot aura did come from the Night Elves, so there was that.

Though, if I could jump off from this, I know that I've discussed a different line of development, but you do remind me that small changes in how the game was presented could have made all of the difference.

In Cataclysm, for example, specifically Ashenvale, just incorporating one or two instances of phasing and a high-note ending would have changed the whole feel of the zone.

In MOP, we get an example of where they could have achieved a good effect by using fewer resources. "A Little Patience" could have been cut from the story entirely and no one would have noticed or cared. I also to this day can't work out why the Divine Bell was taken to Darnassus of all places (other than "Fuck Night Elves", which it appeared to be). Another thing that irked me about the patch in question was how the "crack team" was wasted by a blademaster and the player. That's an easy one to fix: add a mess of Kor'kron NPCs who the Night Elven NPCs would have wasted. It would have looked like just the player and the blademaster made it out alive, and changed the whole feel of it.

Simple, little stuff could have made things so much better as well.
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  #58  
Old 12-30-2017, 10:07 PM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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I am vehemently against this concept. Not just for night elves, but for WoW in general. Fantasy should remain fantasy, and any form of tech development should be minor. WC3 tech level was a good cut off point.

With that said I don't see any problem with some night elves using explosives, or choosing rifles as an alternate weapon.

I also don't see why night elves couldn't have developed some tech of their own. Technology is really just tools that people invent to fulfill a need, or to improve on existing ideas. While magic is a great solution, it's not the only solution. And sometimes it's much easier to use tools instead of running to the local wizard for help.
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  #59  
Old 12-30-2017, 10:13 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Originally Posted by TerrorhoofMayo View Post
I am vehemently against this concept. Not just for night elves, but for WoW in general. Fantasy should remain fantasy, and any form of tech development should be minor.
Star Wars is fantasy.
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  #60  
Old 12-30-2017, 10:17 PM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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Star Wars is fantasy.
Star Wars had a consistent tech level.

WoW went from blunderbuss to helicarriers.
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  #61  
Old 12-30-2017, 10:50 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Originally Posted by TerrorhoofMayo View Post
Star Wars had a consistent tech level.

WoW went from blunderbuss to helicarriers.
Your point being?

Doesn't make your "fantasy should remain fantasy" statement any less erroneous. WarCraft has had flying machines, mechanized armor suits and airborne fortresses since WC3. It's even had submarines since WC2. For all the complaining people did about TBC introducing interdimensional "spaceships," it really didn't. We already had that stuff since before WoW in the form of the Scourge teleporting its airborne necropoli onto the battlefield.

Horde and Alliance airships are downright low-concept compared to what the Scourge already had when it was introduced. In fact that advance in particular arguably makes sense with both how and when it happened, with the factions developing their own airships as if in direct response to their lands being assaulted by the Scourge's flying fortresses during the pre-expansion invasions.)

One might even say the airships have become less effective, as ever since the Alliance and Horde inexplicably stopped mage-shielding the things after Northrend they keep getting knocked out of the sky left-and-right.
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  #62  
Old 12-30-2017, 11:16 PM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
Your point being?

Doesn't make your "fantasy should remain fantasy" statement any less erroneous. WarCraft has had flying machines, mechanized armor suits and airborne fortresses since WC3. It's even had submarines since WC2. For all the complaining people did about TBC introducing interdimensional "spaceships," it really didn't. We already had that stuff since before WoW in the form of the Scourge teleporting its airborne necropoli onto the battlefield.

Horde and Alliance airships are downright low-concept compared to what the Scourge already had when it was introduced. In fact that advance in particular arguably makes sense with both how and when it happened, with the factions developing their own airships as if in direct response to their lands being assaulted by the Scourge's flying fortresses during the pre-expansion invasions.)

One might even say the airships have become less effective, as ever since the Alliance and Horde inexplicably stopped mage-shielding the things after Northrend they keep getting knocked out of the sky left-and-right.
I did say WC3 was a good cut off point. Even then the tech didn't look reliable compared to what we have now. Goblin shredders and gnomish flying machines are low key compared to a helicarrier. Even with all that it still retained a majority fantasy, now it's just rule of cool.
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  #63  
Old 12-30-2017, 11:53 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by TerrorhoofMayo View Post
I did say WC3 was a good cut off point. Even then the tech didn't look reliable compared to what we have now. Goblin shredders and gnomish flying machines are low key compared to a helicarrier. Even with all that it still retained a majority fantasy, now it's just rule of cool.
Well, for starters you can have fantasy in more eras than the medieval one. Given how you defended Star Wars, I think you're more concerned about development jumping the shark, and that's a reasonable concern.

Again, if the Night Elves would have gone in this direction, it would have been important to keep it anchored with what the race is and what it stands for. Smoke-belching factories would be unacceptable. Druids and ancients being able to supply, operate, and heal machines more complex than glaive throwers from hideouts in the woods would get closer. The lynchpin is of course the power and application of druidic magic, which I argue should also see a lot more traditional use against enemies of the Kaldorei.
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  #64  
Old 12-31-2017, 05:43 AM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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Stuff like gyrocopters and blunderbusses are just fantastic enough in a Renaissance to Early Modern way that they aren't as out place with knights in plate as lasers or modern war crime trials. Floating settlements are also centuries old so they're not really modern.
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  #65  
Old 01-01-2018, 02:13 PM
Al'Akir Al'Akir is offline

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I find it both funny and a bit tiresome how people forget that warcraft 2 had internal combustion engines, and extensive modern oil drilling and refining technology. WC2 tech was pretty 20th century.
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  #66  
Old 07-28-2018, 07:14 PM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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Kyalin did you do the Suramar quest line? Specifically the Arcan'dor one.
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  #67  
Old 07-29-2018, 07:33 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by TerrorhoofMayo View Post
Kyalin did you do the Suramar quest line? Specifically the Arcan'dor one.
I didn't play legion, but when I went to review the content, I did watch through lets plays of the Suramar content from end to end. Why?
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Old 07-29-2018, 01:37 PM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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I didn't play legion, but when I went to review the content, I did watch through lets plays of the Suramar content from end to end. Why?
Oh, I thought you did.

So what's your take on the Arcan'dor?
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  #69  
Old 07-29-2018, 04:10 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by TerrorhoofMayo View Post
Oh, I thought you did.

So what's your take on the Arcan'dor?
I don't like it. I think it's too convenient of a way around the problem of arcane magic, which is a problem that I like if it can be handled well. I don't think it is handled well of course, I think instead they're trying to portray all opposition to arcane magic as flat and simple bigotry.
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Old 07-29-2018, 06:11 PM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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I don't like it. I think it's too convenient of a way around the problem of arcane magic, which is a problem that I like if it can be handled well. I don't think it is handled well of course, I think instead they're trying to portray all opposition to arcane magic as flat and simple bigotry.
Really? It's a good fusion of arcane and druidism where night elves aren't not evolving. It's also not the first time arcane effects were bypassed through use of a conduit, at least in concept.
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  #71  
Old 07-30-2018, 07:30 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by TerrorhoofMayo View Post
Really? It's a good fusion of arcane and druidism where night elves aren't not evolving. It's also not the first time arcane effects were bypassed through use of a conduit, at least in concept.
I think that to the extent you pursue such a fusion, you can't simply ignore the drawbacks to it, but maybe I'm getting ahead of myself.

I am a huge fan of the Deus Ex series. I started with the original game and probably will end up playing it again this week because - and this is a joke among Deus Ex fans - every time it gets mentioned it gets reinstalled and played. Human Revolution is a prequel to the original, taking place during the golden age of mechanical augmentation. The game's art direction even reflects this, with many of the environments being reflected in this goldish tinge to give off this sense of a brimming new world.

Now to the problems. The big one is neuropozyne, the anti-rejection drug. The deal is, if you become mechanically augmented, you have to take this highly addictive, highly priced drug for the rest of your life - or you die. Mechanically augmented people therefore constitute the richest 1/125th of the population (or at least according to Lazurus that's the number, but he's also a conspiracy radio jockey who comes on at various points in the game). Augmented people also face discrimination from those who claim that augmentation is "playing god", who are concerned with the idea that augmentation may make normal people irrelevant, and those concerned that augmentations can make a normal person far more lethal than they'd otherwise be.

I don't consider this a spoiler for Human Revolution as it's marketing for Mankind Divided , but those concerns are partially validated. There is a massive, worldwide incident that is clunkily referred to as the Aug Incident (I hate that name), which is a day when, without explanation, just about the entire augmented population flew into an induced hallucinogenic killing rampage. Millions died, no one knows how it happened or if it could happen again (except the player - that's the spoiler I won't reveal) - but what people do "know" is "these preening rich assholes played with fire and we all got burned". What you might expect followed.

I can't help but think that Eidos Montreal ripped a lot of ideas from Warcraft...

Anyway, much of that becomes possible with neuropozyne being a factor. (Some people even blame it for the aug incident) If you take it away, say with a magic gene sequence that just fixes the problem, a lot of the tension goes away and you don't get to examine the consequences of the technology. I see the arcandor in a similar light. I don't like the drawbacks to arcane addiction simply being fixed by eating a fruit, or otherwise being made so irrelevant that the only reason to oppose arcane magic is simple bigotry. I like the idea of it being a viably contentious issue with good points on both sides.

Since this turned up in a Night Elf thread though, I doubly don't like that idea being used on Kaldorei highborne. Azhara's highborne essentially regarded the lives of the lowborn as meaningless, and through her actions and inactions, multitudes of people lost their lives. That loss is remembered by a substantial portion of the Kaldorei - the War of the Ancients after all happened within their lifetime. I would expect a highly conservative attitude towards magic, and towards the ability of the highest echelon of society to amass any kind of power in that concentration, to emerge from that. So that "those preening rich assholes can't burn us again".
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  #72  
Old 11-21-2018, 07:39 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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I know this may seem like more of a gameplay concern, but if I could change one thing about night elves it's the fact that their PotMs are represented by WoW's priest class. Instead of just Trueshot Aura (Yes, this was a vanilla passive ability.), I would also have given Searing Arrows and perhaps even Starfall, thereby not only representing PotMs more accurately but also making hunters a far more interesting class than they are. As a bonus, religions in WoW would've been less homogenised.

Hopefully Searing Arrows will eventually get added as a passive hunter ability, alongside a glyph to turn Volley into WC3's Starfall, but I doubt it.
Elemental Arrows was a talent in the... Legion beta I believe?

But yeah they're not going to give balance druid flavour to hunters unfortunately. The closest we're going to get is sort of huntress-esque sentinel stuff in the marksmanship tree.

For a long time I've thought they should have really broken down the classes. Wouldn't have worked in legion obviously. But having a lot MORE classes instead of just specs and making those classes hyper specific.

(Stuff like Priestess of the Moon, Northshire Cleric, Far Seer, Tauren Warrior, Spirit Walker, Blademaster, Orcish Berserker, etc. etc.) and REALLY developing the abilities for those classes so they're multifaceted and intricate rather than just having a ton of buttons to push (i.e. quality over quantity).

They'll never do it, but it's been my preference for a while.

On the subject of Night Elves, I have mixed feelings about how they were handled in 8.1. Mostly I think it was a step in the right direction, but it's more or less how I feel about how Jaina's been handled. I like the CONCEPT, but I wish it had been handled better in terms of execution.
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  #73  
Old 11-22-2018, 05:46 PM
Funk, the Bard Funk, the Bard is offline

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The underlying problem with how Blizzard handles Night Elves is that they gave birth to a monster possessing an absurd amount of narrative potential that vastly outweighs them. Let's imagine the Night Elves' story as one big walk towards some objective, like the one that led to the founding of Valinor in The Lord of the Rings. In the latter, just that event divided their community in several political sub-divisions that then went to become cultural.

Blizzard, instead, can't even handle two trains of thought per race. This is specially cruel to the Night Elves, as they are the longest-lived civilized culture in Warcraft; they should have had tons of small minds working—or not working—together and not everybody following "Elune incarnated" Tyrande and "Hitler with antlers" Malfurion.

Staghelm and his supporters were a logical consequence of the Third War. Inhabiting Teldrassil, however, was not. We know that Staghelm's supporters were but a small fraction of the Cenarion Circle, and that Tyrande and Malfurion were the de-facto leaders of their people. With the latter asleep, Tyrande's word carried the weight of both. The logical choice for her would have been to refuse,
  • Because her husband also did it and she valued his advice.
  • Because the second coming of the Burning Legion was a heavy blow to her people. Bruised, it was better to cement their already established positions.
  • Because their new neighbors, the Orcs, were an increasingly ravenous menace to the forests of Ashenvale.
  • Because the groves and glades in dire need of cleansing were Felwood, Darkshore, and Ashenvale.
  • Because Auberdine already provided a functional port to interact with their new allies.
It would have been better to see Tyrande directing the fight against the Horde in Ashenvale—or at least much more consequent. Staghelm was a great addition, too bad that Blizzard decided to kill him and with it the last bit of true political friction in Darnassus.

I think Kalimdor night elf storyline in Classic could have been about Tyrande efforts, through players, to convince the Kaldorei towns and groups across the continent to form a single government as we learn about their traditions and insights into the future, while having political friction underneath as several leaders—Staghelm included—discuss the proper path for their race to take now.

In the Eastern Kingdom you could have got many night elf immigrants, centered around The Park in Stormwind, and their adaptation to the "modern" world. Put some interactions with the high elves and arcane magic and create good characters that could advocate for modernization in the future, and you got a hotbed for intercultural exchange.

There's much more floating in my mind. Where were the Wardens in Classic? I can't believe that during Tyrande's escapade only Illidan got free, nor that they were to have amicable relations with Darnassus during this time. How did Feralas night elves differ from their northern brothers? Why did Tyrande sent Shandris there while orcs rampaged through Ashenvale?

That's the thing about Night elves: they simply have MORE history in Azeroth than other playable races—Darkspear trolls are a more recent Gurubashi spin-off and the Draenei are aliens. The fact that they have to be equalized is jarring.

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  #74  
Old 11-23-2018, 12:54 AM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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I think the bigger issue was that the Night Elves' narrative was... pretty much resolved with Frozen Throne. They sort of tried to give them a new hook with Teldrassil, but that never panned out. And the latest expansion acts as if Teldrassil has always been their home. When Ashenvale is far more the "core" of Night Elven society. Staghelm is a sort of cool idea was more or less a brat, until he was a sympathetic brat, and then he was evil. Which... is pretty much just Daelin Proudmoore syndrome. Contrived, childish conflict. That never really got properly resolved.

They were also SO far removed from anything else happening in Azeroth. Why on earth do they care about Outland or Northrend or Pandaria? But they got shoehorned into all of these conflicts. And then when they DO have something that's their own, Blizzard felt the need to involve every other possible race as much as possible. Or keep it confined to the more neutral Cenarion Circle (which is obstensibly a Night Elf organization that has invited Horde druids).

I've always maintained it would have been a lot more interesting if stuff like Hyjal was done with the understanding that the Horde players involved were kind of going against their faction's wishes. Throw-away lines from Furion for example about how "it's nice to see not every soldier of the Horde is following the example of their Warchief." Even simple flavour dialogue that's more specific to your race and faction. But they've always been hesitant to do stuff like that for some reason.

My take on pre-WoW Night Elven government was that all Night Elves are kind of just... mature and self-sufficient. Like a big huge commune or cooperative. Tyrande is the leader of the Sentinel Army but I don't think she bothers micromanaging, delegating or governing in the traditional sense. Same with Furion. Leads the druids, but he's not figuring out how to irrigate crops or how the breakdown of their power structure should be. They're a tribal society. Those things just aren't necessary for Night Elven society. And then they have a huge pantheon of powerful demigods and ancients.

They're just such an evolved society I feel like giving them petty political squabbles kinda sells them short. The personal stories are much more interesting to me than anything else.

But... yeah there've been a ton of missed opportunities with the race. Primarily in Cataclysm, Legion and now Battle for Azeroth. And I understand why that is, but it is disappointing.
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Last edited by Aldrius; 11-23-2018 at 12:59 AM..
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alliance whining, fanfiction, horde bias, knife-ears, night elf tears, night elves, warcraft

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