Scrolls of Lore Forums  

Go Back   Scrolls of Lore Forums > WarCraft Discussion > WarCraft Lore Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #26  
Old 12-20-2017, 11:30 AM
Morvant Morvant is offline

Ranger
Morvant's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: World's End
Posts: 309

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
As to the rest of your argument, while I would point out that it leaves other parts and the general dillema standing
Which ones ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
Of course, this was often because I was advancing, at the same time, that Night Elves, with the right schematics and know how could theoretically grow tanks and artillery pieces to update some of their existing weapons.
Call that magic-tree punk if you like, but this is why I personally think that the Night Elves had the potential to provide a very interesting story on how that particular culture would industrialize - a bizarre synthesis of the natural and the artificial along the lines of the Night Elves' existing synthesis, rather than a conflict.


That's not to say that I wouldn't want to see a less outlandish route either, but I do think that the possibilities involved with druidic construction were criminally unexplored.
I can see where you are going, but I don't really like the idea of elves aping gnomish or goblins technology. Or "industrializing". They already have the better "technology".

I don't see much that a tank or mortar could perform that some sort of ancient couldn't.

I guess you could improve on the ancient protector by having some sort ironbark ancient armed with a vorpal-moon-glaive thrower, with a moonwell on its back and a bunch of sentinels riding atop it ^^.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 12-20-2017, 11:32 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

Eternal
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 4,808

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cacofonix View Post
The concept art had them with seperate roles for men and women.
That particular concept art has never made it into canon, though.

Last edited by Marthen; 12-20-2017 at 03:54 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 12-20-2017, 01:06 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

Demon Hunter
Kyalin V. Raintree's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 487

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morvant View Post
Which ones ?
The ones concerning fire and the lunar festival rockets. I won't rehash what I said there, but one concerns the general principle and the other shows that they don't necessarily have an issue with 'new' technologies.

Quote:
I can see where you are going, but I don't really like the idea of elves aping gnomish or goblins technology. Or "industrializing". They already have the better "technology".
I think there's still a bit of confusion here, because merely having them ape gnomes is not quite where I'm going. I wouldn't want them to do that, or turn Darnassus into Pittsburgh. I would want them to explore that sort of development in their own way, a way that has the development proceed (to the extent possible, obviously I still think that rapid developments should spawn fundamental and ugly debates) in concert with nature, not necessarily in opposition to it.

Examples might include the Korean hwatcha, the use of offensive rockets, explosive tipped arrows, or the growth of steel tipped brambles as a replacement for barbed wire. You might see a tram grown by druidic means snaking around and through parts of Teldrassil instead of a portal. Growing a tank is an extreme example, but then again, if they do remain in the Alliance, there's no reason for not having druids assisting to heal a steam engine, or something larger like a Skyfire-type airship.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 12-20-2017, 03:48 PM
Icefrost Icefrost is offline

Chimaera
Icefrost's Avatar
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Finland
Posts: 267

Default

The problem with the whole technology angle is that by in-universe logic, it presumes either a need for it to keep up with the competition, which I already refuted as far as being a necessity to the story, or the curiosity and drive to explore such things naturally is assumed, which doesn't fly terribly well with a civilization characterized most by tradition, some straight up stagnation and a healthy dose of downright fear for their own past.

If you mean the innovation to be all but purely aesthetic, then I have to ask: why bother?
That's the point at which I start asking the same question Nazja did earlier: is it actually night elves you want in the first place?

The chief problem with blizzard's existing writing, to me, is that they seem obsessed with forcing change on the night elves on a constant basis, as opposed to letting them figure out their own act in their own time. That's the number one thing I would stay away from, and to that end I don't really care if you'd merely do it in a different manner.
Note that this does not equate to opposing all story development, or whatever similar-souding strawman of a claim you want to throw at me. I just think there's plenty of unexplored potential far closer to home, so to speak, than most people have the imagination to give credit to.
__________________

Last edited by Icefrost; 12-20-2017 at 03:51 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 12-20-2017, 04:24 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

Demon Hunter
Kyalin V. Raintree's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 487

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icefrost View Post
The problem with the whole technology angle is that by in-universe logic, it presumes either a need for it to keep up with the competition, which I already refuted as far as being a necessity to the story, or the curiosity and drive to explore such things naturally is assumed, which doesn't fly terribly well with a civilization characterized most by tradition, some straight up stagnation and a healthy dose of downright fear for their own past.

If you mean the innovation to be all but purely aesthetic, then I have to ask: why bother?
The first argument from a meta perspective doesn't work as I mentioned in the other thread. In universe I think it would be reasonable for Night Elves to conclude that they should try and catch up, but I did want to clarify that.

I'm going more for the second part, and I think I see the disconnect here. When I look at the society's fear of it's past, I see the arcane, which is demonstrably dangerous and ruinous. But again, I have to stress, in Warcraft III, the wardens had no issue at all with stockpiling goblin land mines. Tyrande had no issue at all with using them either, and as mentioned before, in WoW, they are using rockets to celebrate a religious holiday.

I think you are worried that the Night Elves would lose their traditions and thier identity merely by developing in this way, and I'm having trouble following why that necessarily is the case. Like I said, I don't want to turn Darnassus into Pittsburgh, and this idea wouldn't make sense if the Night Elves did not approach it in their own way. I see the druidic society as a fascinating way of exploring the idea in a way that hasn't been done before.

So really, unless we're just talking past each other, I am a bit confused about where we're not lining up here. I don't want to misrepresent you, but is it our competing ideas over what they are afraid of, or is there a tradition you feel that I have missed?
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 12-20-2017, 05:07 PM
Shandris Shandris is offline

Owl Scout
Shandris's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 14

Default

Whoo, I just woke up for a nap and I'm ready to engage this thread. I'm gonna paint my own uncompromising picture of night elves in WoW, so this might look outlandish to most of you.

Here is a list of changes I would make to night elves in classic/2005 WoW:

1. Night elves don't join the Alliance, instead they're a group neutral factions like the Steamwheedle Cartel. Reputation factions as follows:

- The Shadowleaves
- The Moonhunters
- The Nightblades
- The Starseekers

2. Druids are not a playable class, Teldrassil never exists, and Darkshore is just part of Ashenvale. Astranaar is the closest thing the elves have to a capital, but they're mostly decentralized and spread throughout Ashenvale in small settlements/tree-houses. Night elves outside of Ashenvale are an extreme rarity, if not nonexistent.

3. Neither the Horde or Alliance hold any land in Ashenvale. Night elven content mostly focuses on the Shadow Council, with satyrs playing a stronger antagonistic role and the furbolg as their protagonist counterparts. The players come to Ashenvale to end the Shadow Council leaders who are organizing followers in places like the Alterac Mountains and Ragefire Chasm.

4. Night elves are the herbalism/alchemy equivalent to The Thorium Brotherhood, where players must grind rep with them to further unlock their profession.

I'll edit this post as I think of more.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 12-20-2017, 05:32 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

Demon Hunter
Kyalin V. Raintree's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 487

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shandris View Post

1. Night elves don't join the Alliance, instead they're a group neutral factions like the Steamwheedle Cartel. Reputation factions as follows:

- The Shadowleaves
- The Moonhunters
- The Nightblades
- The Starseekers
Why break them up?
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 12-20-2017, 07:52 PM
Shandris Shandris is offline

Owl Scout
Shandris's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 14

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
Why break them up?
To better represent the different facets of Night Elf society. For example The Shadowleaves might guard the Barrow Dens, The Moonhunters might be the more militaristic sentinels who watch the borders, The Starseekers might be a primarily religious organization etc.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 12-20-2017, 08:29 PM
Icefrost Icefrost is offline

Chimaera
Icefrost's Avatar
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Finland
Posts: 267

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
But again, I have to stress, in Warcraft III, the wardens had no issue at all with stockpiling goblin land mines. Tyrande had no issue at all with using them either, and as mentioned before, in WoW, they are using rockets to celebrate a religious holiday.
Preaching to the choir on this point. I don't think anyone who bothers to look past the surface thinks they ever had much of a problem using a bit of tech here and there.

And maybe that's actually the problem. I'm beginning to think that you're marketing your idea as being something far more groundbreaking than it actually is, due to a perceived disagreement here, and therefore should get people excited. It's not really any kind of a particularly controversial twist as much as it's a perfectly valid idea but still feels...unnecessary.

Let's try a different angle: imagine we were talking what-ifs for a different warcraft race who could've possibly been done better in WoW - say, Darkspear trolls. Would you still be suggesting an industrial angle then?

I'm trying to understand why you find your own idea as cool and fitting as you seem to think it is as well as what brought it on but I'm failing. As someone stated earlier in different words, just because there isn't an aversion to fireworks doesn't mean we should be moving to artillery next. I don't buy it as any kind of shocking twist and I don't buy it as a development that the base concept of the elves really lends itself to in any way.

Seems to me a far more natural approach to the narrative would be to emphasize on all the experience and any secret techniques they may have. Instead of trying to think feasible ways for them to obtain armored vehicles with cannons, I'd go for more of a 'the Jedi among the starships' approach, as overly flattering as that may sound. Or if you prefer, a couple footsoldiers taking on a giant death robot in a bunch of moves that are literally presented as a blur on the screen, like you'd see in an anime or something. Ignoring the later introduction of the draenei, the night elves are pretty much the one opportunity to hit that market in warcraft and get away with it lorewise.

Harnessing what they have to offer for something as seemingly mundane as yet another examination of technology in a different setting almost seems a waste in the same vein as 'yet another race of magic elves', hence my lumping these together previously.

As far as the pollution angle, we kinda already have that in the druids and their fight against the sometimes nebulous but never the less functional concept of corruption in general. We also have various factions exerting their own kind of industrial footprint on Azeroth as well. I feel like you're kind of forgetting that these things would likely still exist in the Azeroth inhabited by our hypothetical improved elves. There's really no need for them to create their own foil in this respect.
__________________

Last edited by Icefrost; 12-20-2017 at 08:54 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 12-20-2017, 11:26 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

Demon Hunter
Kyalin V. Raintree's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 487

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icefrost View Post
Preaching to the choir on this point. I don't think anyone who bothers to look past the surface thinks they ever had much of a problem using a bit of tech here and there.

And maybe that's actually the problem. I'm beginning to think that you're marketing your idea as being something far more groundbreaking than it actually is, due to a perceived disagreement here, and therefore should get people excited. It's not really any kind of a particularly controversial twist as much as it's a perfectly valid idea but still feels...unnecessary.
I wouldn't necessarily call it a twist. Precedent exists for the concept, and it doesn't require a crazy upheaval of the Night Elven society. If societies naturally develop, advancing their knowledge as needs and events in those societies require, I would expect the Night Elves to, given the lack of traditional barriers to do otherwise, develop in some way.

Prior to Warcraft III, they had no need. They were, to their knowledge, THE global power. The arrival of the Alliance and the Horde should change that perspective.

Quote:
Let's try a different angle: imagine we were talking what-ifs for a different warcraft race who could've possibly been done better in WoW - say, Darkspear trolls. Would you still be suggesting an industrial angle then?
I would expect them to advance and to use new technologies, certainly. The Orcs did so as well, and to a lesser extent, so are the humans. I would expect them to develop in radically different ways than Night Elves would, however, for reasons that I hope I can better explain.

Quote:
I'm trying to understand why you find your own idea as cool and fitting as you seem to think it is as well as what brought it on but I'm failing. As someone stated earlier in different words, just because there isn't an aversion to fireworks doesn't mean we should be moving to artillery next. I don't buy it as any kind of shocking twist and I don't buy it as a development that the base concept of the elves really lends itself to in any way.

Seems to me a far more natural approach to the narrative would be to emphasize on all the experience and any secret techniques they may have. Instead of trying to think feasible ways for them to obtain armored vehicles with cannons, I'd go for more of a 'the Jedi among the starships' approach, as overly flattering as that may sound. Or if you prefer, a couple footsoldiers taking on a giant death robot in a bunch of moves that are literally presented as a blur on the screen, like you'd see in an anime or something. Ignoring the later introduction of the draenei, the night elves are pretty much the one opportunity to hit that market in warcraft and get away with it lorewise.
I have had this idea for a while actually, and I think your alternative of the 'Jedi among starships' approach underlines how, in focusing on the military aspect, I've done a disservice in explaining it.

The Night Elves' existing use of druidism eliminates a host of problems that societies face. Night Elves don't need lumber camps - they can harvest lumber without even killing the trees, and as was demonstrated earlier, it doesn't stop there. They manipulate stone, wood, and possibly even metal to create every manner of thing that they require, from moonwells to houses to sailing vessels, to magnificent temples, to cities nestled on the tops of enormous trees grown out of the freaking ocean. Does scarcity even exist for the Night Elves? As in, enough to create things like poverty? I certainly don't see how it could with how intertwined they are with the natural environment. Either way, this close relationship makes them incredibly unique, and that concept has a lot of room to run.

At the same time, this is a society that is going from having previously been the world's premiere power, at least to their knowledge, to one among many - with not all of them being friendly - who can put up a fight. As I said, it is logical to me that the Night Elves should seek ways to maintain and preserve an edge. But, at the same time, with the level of development that some of these societies are at, it presents quandaries in the sense that this isn't simply adopting a longer range bow. This is industrialization, for a society that is married to the natural world. That conflict is interesting to me.

I also don't think it's like corruption, especially as it's presented in WoW. Corruption in WoW is kind of like an oil spill. Someone screwed up, and now takes the blame, but you can clean it up, and deal with the damage later. That or it's being caused by the big bad who we will eventually kill. The side effects of the kind of shift I'm referring to above are thornier than that. In our world, for example, industrialization bred nationalism - which would be a stupidly easy sale to a xenophobic race that (rightly) would fear that other countries are trying to take advantage of them.

Pollution I'm not sure was the best way to express the other conflict, especially given that Night Elves would not create belching smokestacks (ever). I would imagine that if a gnomish advisor pitched certain ideas, they would reply "but that irradiated your city", and dismiss the idea as the gnome tries to stutter out excuses. That isn't to say that Night Elves wouldn't run into conflicts between what they stand for and where they are going. Pressing on the nationalism front again - would measures taken to defend the forest constitute an abuse of the Night Elves' compact with nature? That conflict could be said to exist already, but if druids are called upon more and more often to create various things, especially things that might go on to harm the forest (like anything that creates or uses fire), that conflict might come to a head.

There is also the more psychological concern that, if druidism is able to do these things, to achieve technological feats over and above what they had before to match or even exceed some peer nations, that it could go to the heads of parts of the society, while the others wonder "okay, so you avoided arcane magic, but you are ACTING like the Highborne did, are we really establishing an empire again - do you remember what happened the last time we tried that?". That might be replied to with "but this isn't the arcane. The wilds themselves are providing us with this bounty, and we are using it to protect them". If you and I were to role play in such an environment, I imagine that our characters would be on different sides of the issue - and I like that about a problem that forces the Night Elves as a whole to consider what's important to them and why.

Using hwatchas would be fun too though... almost as fun as having chimaera back.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 12-21-2017, 01:46 AM
Shandris Shandris is offline

Owl Scout
Shandris's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 14

Default

Personally, I don't like the industrialization direction for the elves. I didn't even like Darnassus, because I don't imagine night elves living behind walls in large population centers.

The elves already have enough advantages over invaders, they don't need to modernize to defend themselves. Instead I think the focus should be their moon-magic (invisibility, telepathy etc) and natural allies (furbolg, ancients etc). Those things alone should have been more than enough for them to defend Ashenvale.

Last edited by Shandris; 12-21-2017 at 01:57 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 12-21-2017, 06:00 AM
Icefrost Icefrost is offline

Chimaera
Icefrost's Avatar
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Finland
Posts: 267

Default

The other thing that I wanted to respond to you with, Kyalin, but didn't last night because I already felt like I was rambling and put my post through several edits, was the idea that putting too much focus on a feature that has thus far kind of been in the background puts a burden of explanation on it unlike anything before. Let me make an example of something I recently picked up from an analysis of the first Pirates of the Caribbean movie.

There's a cursed coin that magically calls out to it's cursed owners when it gets dropped into the sea by accident. That works as long as we don't need to know more.
Ask the question of 'would any body of water have done the trick' and you start getting into trouble. If it's not any old water that triggers, then how do you define what counts as being the sea? You can't tell me it's the salinity or something, because that just causes more problems than it solves. Same with basically any answer.

In Warcraft III, building an ancient consumes the wisp that does it, presumably because it's what animates the thing. Start playing with ideas like slapping multiple of these together into one construct, or start asking exactly how much time and energy it takes for any such operation to complete, for the sake of giving their enemies an understanding of what to do to try and counteract this stuff, and you've got trouble.

The point is, some things in stories work better when NOT explored in quite as much detail, but keeping your distance from those pesky details doesn't quite work with something that you want to be a main, major focus of things.

I can see stolen/purchased goblin land mines being used simply because they're already there and just need to be planted. I can even see fireworks+glaive throwers translating into something like a h'wacha, but only as long as we don't need to know exactly where they get their gunpowder from and basically keep a healthy distance from the details to the extent that it could just be more of Elune's Searing Arrows as opposed to an incendiary chemical, for all we know.


In summary: I'm not big on the projected aesthetic of what you're suggesting, I don't like that it's still insisting on a premise of 'they need more stuff to survive' like an arms race, and I don't think actually writing it would go very smoothly because of how focusing a story around something tends to inherently waive the writers' right to not explain the details of it, no matter how inconvenient.
__________________

Last edited by Icefrost; 12-21-2017 at 06:16 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 12-21-2017, 06:15 AM
Shandris Shandris is offline

Owl Scout
Shandris's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 14

Default

I don't think there's any question that the fire and frost arrows from WC3 were magical, not chemical. They were spells that consumed mana and did magic damage.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 12-21-2017, 06:17 AM
Icefrost Icefrost is offline

Chimaera
Icefrost's Avatar
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Finland
Posts: 267

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shandris View Post
I don't think there's any question that the fire and frost arrows from WC3 were magical, not chemical. They were spells that consumed mana and did magic damage.
Not sure how you read what I posted, but yeah, that was my point.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 12-21-2017, 07:27 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

Demon Hunter
Kyalin V. Raintree's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 487

Default

Quote:
In summary: I'm not big on the projected aesthetic of what you're suggesting, I don't like that it's still insisting on a premise of 'they need more stuff to survive' like an arms race, and I don't think actually writing it would go very smoothly because of how focusing a story around something tends to inherently waive the writers' right to not explain the details of it, no matter how inconvenient.
The only "big-O" objection I really have to what you said has to do with the value you seem to be advancing that it's too much of a burden on the writers. Given how the question of the burden on the writers I would argue led the Night Elves into their current rut (it is far easier to tell a story about red versus blue than to expand upon multiple different societies), taken with the probability that the writers' resource deficits have more to do with Activision-Blizzard's morally bankrupt tax strategies (Look up SuperBunnyHop's video on this. I don't want to overwhelm this post with the automatic youtube embed), I am REALLY unsympathetic to this argument. Blizzard agreed to tell a story about a world - worlds are very complex things that need a lot of care and attention.

But the rest comes down I think to personal preference. Personally, I think it is logical that the Night Elves should want to develop given the events of Warcraft III. I hold the situation as being similar to Japan's, where they see this new technology and think "ok, we have some work to do". I think Japan is also instructive because that nation very much retained its identity - it's just that its identity was put through the spin cycle of what the next logical stage in their development was. At the core of it is that I'd like to see Night Elves grow and develop, I want to follow that development, and, given the peculiarities of that culture, I want to see it expressed in a uniquely Night Elven way.

But again, that's the kind of story that I personally like, and if you don't, that's okay. This thread is not about discussing just my ideas on the subject, and I'm not going to claim that I have the "one true" way that Night Elves could have been portrayed differently. Given that we are now starting to get to more concerns about personal values and tastes in overall stories, I think we've kicked around this particular possibility enough.

In other words: I think the industrialization line has been discussed. I'd like to now see more ideas from other people.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 12-21-2017, 11:11 AM
Icefrost Icefrost is offline

Chimaera
Icefrost's Avatar
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Finland
Posts: 267

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
The only "big-O" objection I really have to what you said has to do with the value you seem to be advancing that it's too much of a burden on the writers.
Sorry about this, but I'm compelled to clarify one last thing since I feel like now you actually are misrepresenting my point a tad.
I never meant to excuse any writers of any burden. It would be more accurate to replace that phrase with 'burden on the story itself'.
It's not about 'I don't think they could handle this kind of thing and still have it be good writing'. It's about 'I don't think this could be done, full stop.' (and still have it be good writing)
As a universal writing thing, putting too much detail into the wrong things is very dangerous to narrative coherence in the long run, no matter how interesting an elaboration on a given subject looks like on paper. Ask anyone about midichlorians. That, in essence, is the problem that I fear it would inevitably lead to.

Now I'm off to ponder why the hell I didn't think of that way of explaining it in my last post, considering I already used a star wars reference and everything...
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 12-21-2017, 12:12 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

Demon Hunter
Kyalin V. Raintree's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 487

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icefrost View Post
Sorry about this, but I'm compelled to clarify one last thing since I feel like now you actually are misrepresenting my point a tad.
I never meant to excuse any writers of any burden. It would be more accurate to replace that phrase with 'burden on the story itself'.
It's not about 'I don't think they could handle this kind of thing and still have it be good writing'. It's about 'I don't think this could be done, full stop.' (and still have it be good writing)
As a universal writing thing, putting too much detail into the wrong things is very dangerous to narrative coherence in the long run, no matter how interesting an elaboration on a given subject looks like on paper. Ask anyone about midichlorians. That, in essence, is the problem that I fear it would inevitably lead to.

Now I'm off to ponder why the hell I didn't think of that way of explaining it in my last post, considering I already used a star wars reference and everything...
I am starting to think that midichlorians have become the Godwin's Law of story criticism.

Midichlorians in no way had to do with societal development or the need to portray a complex topic. The Jedi could (and should) have said "the force is unusually strong with this boy", and it would have been fine.

Where do you see the inevitably of a situation like that in development? It's already established that druidic magic can shape wood, stone, and possibly even metal to create structures and things that the Night Elves need, so why is a hyper specific explanation for an extension of the idea required?
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 12-21-2017, 03:50 PM
Icefrost Icefrost is offline

Chimaera
Icefrost's Avatar
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Finland
Posts: 267

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
I am starting to think that midichlorians have become the Godwin's Law of story criticism.
I only brought it up because the previous coin thing seems to have gone over your head. Sorry you feel that way.

Quote:
Where do you see the inevitably of a situation like that in development? It's already established that druidic magic can shape wood, stone, and possibly even metal to create structures and things that the Night Elves need, so why is a hyper specific explanation for an extension of the idea required?
Because eventually someone - in-universe, out of it, or more likely both - is going to want to know how these processes could go wrong or be disrupted on purpose. More questions will be raised regarding what kind of and how many resources it takes to do this stuff.

And I don't mean that in a "this looks interesting, let's find out" kind of a way, as should be obvious by what I've said so far.

And the devil's not just in the details, either. Supersize this, then sufficiently shove it in their enemies' faces, and we'll just end up with a night elf version of the so-called 'orcish cloning machine' that people bitch about every other expansion. Go too far to avoid that and you end up with ultra-restrictive nonsense disproven from the get go by thirteen other things we already knew about - aka a doomed mess of an explanation.

Let me just shove in a final reminder that this is not me criticizing the capabilities of any real or hypothetical writers that would work on this stuff. This is me thinking out loud that certain kinds of elements of fiction, kept in the background for a reason, are just inherently unsuited to closer examination, especially in a "what else could that thing do" -kind of a way.
Instead, they tend to be a whole bunch of "why didn't they just do that from the start" -type plotholes just waiting to happen.
__________________

Last edited by Icefrost; 12-21-2017 at 04:01 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 12-21-2017, 04:38 PM
Morvant Morvant is offline

Ranger
Morvant's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: World's End
Posts: 309

Default

Well I pretty much wholeheartedly agree with Icefrost so I won't repeat his arguments.

I am just going to nitpick a few things for the pleasure of it ^^.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
But again, I have to stress, in Warcraft III, the wardens had no issue at all with stockpiling goblin land mines.
The Watchers' job is literally to hunt down and lock away stuff that is considered highly dangerous for night elves' society. Those mines are behind bars near Illidan's cell, behind a bunch of skeletons, pretty deep into the vault.

The Watchers are also stockpiling skeleton archers in crates by the way :p.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
I hold the situation as being similar to Japan's, where they see this new technology and think "ok, we have some work to do".
I don't think the night elves would consider this technology "new" or superior. I think they would consider it crude and dangerous, especially in regard to what they willingly abandoned ( and for good reasons ) over the past 10 thousand years, and to what they still have .
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 12-21-2017, 06:38 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

Demon Hunter
Kyalin V. Raintree's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 487

Default

@ Morvant

Quote:
The Watchers' job is literally to hunt down and lock away stuff that is considered highly dangerous for night elves' society. Those mines are behind bars near Illidan's cell, behind a bunch of skeletons, pretty deep into the vault.

The Watchers are also stockpiling skeleton archers in crates by the way :p.
Two things on this. First, this is the second time you've casually ignored that Tyrande has no issue in using those mines, as well as that Night Elves use fireworks to celebrate a religious holiday. This point leaves those examples on the table and does not demonstrate the aversion to newer technologies that you seem to imply the existence of.

Second, your speculation on why the Wardens got those land mines is just that, and it doesn't answer why those mines were not merely destroyed.

As for the skeletons, yes, they exist, and no one has retconned them yet to my knowledge.... but that's a different discussion for another time.

Quote:
I don't think the night elves would consider this technology "new" or superior. I think they would consider it crude and dangerous, especially in regard to what they willingly abandoned ( and for good reasons ) over the past 10 thousand years, and to what they still have .
To begin with, the last part of your sentence assumes that they knew about Eastern Kingdom technologies that didn't exist ten-thousand years ago for ten-thousand years. Warcraft III is the first time the encountered it. Now, if you meant to say that they didn't develop - of course they didn't, they didn't need to. Warcraft III very well could change that perception of need.

Would they call some of it crude and impractical? Sure, but we know that they do make some adaptations, such as the rockets I mentioned earlier, some use of guns (confirmed by a Stardust Spire quest), and some use of cannons (confirmed by the same Stardust Spire quest), as well as use of other devices such as the gnomecorder.

So, until these examples are retconned, I'm going to have to call this across the board rejection on the part of Night Elves towards all new or foreign technologies what it is: fanon.

@ Icefrost

Quote:
I only brought it up because the previous coin thing seems to have gone over your head. Sorry you feel that way.
Just because I don't directly quote an example doesn't mean that I haven't considered it. As an example, I've read over your entire post a few points now, but I feel that your argument can be sufficiently condensed:

Quote:
Because eventually someone - in-universe, out of it, or more likely both - is going to want to know how these processes could go wrong or be disrupted on purpose. More questions will be raised regarding what kind of and how many resources it takes to do this stuff.
This is not an argument solely against the Night Elves pursuing technological development as a response to a major event in their history (the arrival of outlanders). This is an argument against writing fiction at all. This same criticism could be leveled at any system, religion, culture, technique, or plot development, and does not absolve the hypothetical writer of explaining them in sufficient detail to permit sufficient understanding, but not in so much detail that it's overkill.

So again, I do not buy this inevitability argument that handling the explanation of it is simply intractable.

---------------

I think again, what you both mean to say, is that the concept of Night Elves developing technologically conflicts with the classical concept of a wood elf, and that for that reason, it's not your cup of tea. I can see that, especially given the fumbling manner in which I initially pitched the idea. In subsequent posts I believe I clarified and removed ideas that, upon further consideration, weren't great (specifically the pollution angle, but TOO much change I think would jump the shark as well) - but if we are really coming down to arguing personal preference (and I believe we are), then I will again say that we should agree to disagree and start discussing other possibilities.

Because there ARE other possibilities. A route of technological development is only one way to portray the Night Elves after Warcraft III, and this thread was intended to discuss several.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 12-21-2017, 06:55 PM
Gurzog Gurzog is offline

Elune
Gurzog's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 13,998
BattleTag: Hulk#2393

Default

The most logical reasonto solve the night elf problem is to murder all night elf fans. In game obviously just sppawn camp them alternatively use a galaxy destroyer like ashbringer to kill azeroth with.

Its a good thing we are solving the problem in bfa.

We are killing azeroth so we can get rid of the alliance.
__________________
Btag is Hulk#23939

Last edited by Gurzog; 12-21-2017 at 06:58 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 12-22-2017, 03:21 AM
Crazyterran Crazyterran is offline

Eternal
Crazyterran's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 3,842
BattleTag: Crazyterran#1213

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gurzog View Post
The most logical reasonto solve the night elf problem is to murder all night elf fans. In game obviously just sppawn camp them alternatively use a galaxy destroyer like ashbringer to kill azeroth with.

Its a good thing we are solving the problem in bfa.

We are killing azeroth so we can get rid of the alliance.
The Alliance is the only one with an interdimensional space ship.

Checkmate, Horde scum.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
So many deluded people think their rotting Waifuchief cares for them and their faction, when every scrap of internalized narrative has made it clear for years that to Sylvanas, the entirety of the Horde - including her own people - is nothing more than a shitton of bodies to stack between herself and her final death.

And all it takes is a tactically calculated "for the Horde" rallying the troops to make them all think "OMG she really does care!"
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 12-22-2017, 07:29 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

Demon Hunter
Kyalin V. Raintree's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 487

Default

Great segue, guys, your check is in the mail.

Quote:
I'm surprised you'd want the elves in the Horde. I don't think it's fair that the elves should just forgive the orcs for killing Cenarius. In my opinion, the orcs sealed their fate as the elves' eternal enemies when they invaded Ashenvale.
This got asked a couple of days ago (it's on page 1), and I feel bad for never answering it, and bear in mind, I was originally going to post this thread with the Horde scenario pitched side by side, I just never did it.

So first, it's worthwhile to remember that in Warcraft III, Tyrande initially blames outlanders generally for Cenarius's death. We see this directly in the intro to one of the missions, where Tyrande and Malfurion observe a group of humans fighting off some scourge. Malfurion wonders if they would be allies considering that they fight the scourge as well. Tyrande rejects this, claiming that they killed Cenarius.

Humans and Orcs also, I'd argue, had the opportunity to "reset" relations after Hyjal. It just appears that the Orcs didn't given the continued presence and operation of lumber camps, which comes down to Thrall doing jack all about them.

A Horde scenario involves a world where Thrall doesn't do that. In the Old Hatreds campaign of Warcraft III, instead of the Night Elves being ignored, Thrall, Rexxar and the gang would try to call on the Night Elves for assistance (in the same way that they do for Tauren, Trolls, and Ogres), by offering to assist with a satyr problem. Along the way, Thrall has to deal with the Warsong Clan, which has not left the area, and refuses when he asks them to. He makes the hard decision to put his foot down as Warchief, and, respecting this, the Night Elves draw closer to the Horde instead of the Alliance.

This would be a bit more of a boring route for the Night Elves. With no potentially hostile nation on their border, they, in this scenario, find themselves working a lot with the Tauren and the Orcs to cleanse demonic corruption from Kalimdor, and in this sense it is not unusual to see Night Elf archers backing up Orc grunts. But when it comes to other conflicts, it is much harder to get Night Elves to turn up on distant battlefields. Thrall understands this, but mostly sees their alliance as a way to keep his own northern border secure, so that he can protect his new country from other threats.

From a balance perspective, the Alliance would need to pick up the Blood Elves, who don't have their ambassador stuffed in some tower in Nethergarde Keep, but are instead, taken far more seriously as allies - reparations are paid, apologies are given, and pledges to drive the scourge (and the Forsaken) out of the North are of course given. The Alliance itself would become more aggressive as well, adopting an ideology closer to that of Daelin Proudmoore, who would be held up as a sort of martyr when news comes back about his death - though this wouldn't be the Alliance running off to start wars so much as it would be them trying to contain the Horde's influence and counter its spread. The two factions would mistrust each other and secretly back insurgent groups, at least in Vanilla.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 12-22-2017, 04:12 PM
Morvant Morvant is offline

Ranger
Morvant's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: World's End
Posts: 309

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
Two things on this. First, this is the second time you've casually ignored that Tyrande has no issue in using those mines, as well as that Night Elves use fireworks to celebrate a religious holiday. This point leaves those examples on the table and does not demonstrate the aversion to newer technologies that you seem to imply the existence of.
First off Tyrande is a lunatic who murdered a bunch of law enforcers made up of both night elves from the sisterhood of Elune, nature allies, and a son of Cenarius. To free a power addicted sociopathic war criminal that had been locked up there for the last 10,000 years.

And even if she wasn't, I hardly see how her punctual use of goblin land mines in the context of the Horde/Scourge/Burning Legion invasion of Kalimdor would impact in a major way the evolution of night elves in the aftermath of the Third War. In fact I think that the night elves would feel pretty hostile to those technologies after seeing what damage they wrought on nature in the hand of the Horde.

I ignore the firework in WoW, because it's WoW. And I chose to ignore many things from WoW. You seem to do so as well. I was under the impression that the premise of this discussion was actually to do that.

Even if I was considering it, I would say that using fireworks for a celebration is a far cry from going full on gun powder rockets, mortars, tanks and industrialize your society.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
Second, your speculation on why the Wardens got those land mines is just that, and it doesn't answer why those mines were not merely destroyed.

As for the skeletons, yes, they exist, and no one has retconned them yet to my knowledge.... but that's a different discussion for another time.
Is it ? Why didn't they destroy the skeletons ? Why are Illidan and so many other creatures kept alive in there ?

You are using the "stockpiling" ( of a handful of landmines ) as one of your main argument in your own speculations, yet you would ignore the undead creatures kept inside the same vault ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
To begin with, the last part of your sentence assumes that they knew about Eastern Kingdom technologies that didn't exist ten-thousand years ago for ten-thousand years.
No. It doesn't assume any of that.

It assumes that the night elves empire, with its massive use of arcane magic, had "technology" that was far more superior to what the goblins/gnomes/dwarves currently have.

And that even with having willingly abandoned massive part of that "technology", the night elves, with their mixed use of arcane, divine and druidic magic, all in symbiosis with the spirits, gods and creatures of Nature, still have a superior level of "technology".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
Warcraft III very well could change that perception of need.
Warcraft III could very well further vindicate the night elves in their choice of living in harmony with nature and to not tolerate and lock up anything and anyone that could fuck it up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
some use of guns (confirmed by a Stardust Spire quest), and some use of cannons (confirmed by the same Stardust Spire quest), as well as use of other devices such as the gnomecorder.
See above comment about WoW.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
So, until these examples are retconned, I'm going to have to call this across the board rejection on the part of Night Elves towards all new or foreign technologies what it is: fanon.
Your lack of self awareness oscillate between amusing and worrisome.

Last edited by Morvant; 12-22-2017 at 04:17 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 12-22-2017, 05:07 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

Demon Hunter
Kyalin V. Raintree's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 487

Default

Half of the comments you raised could have been corrected by reading my prior statements, the other half are personal preference. Your disagreement with what Tyrande did doesn't change what she did. I never denied the existence of skeletons, and no, I don't ignore WoW's lore, I just argue that it didn't have to happen that way. As far as that goes, if you think Night Elves should have an issue with fireworks and that WoW got it wrong, I would expect to see your reasons for that. So far, you've given me nothing.

Most absurd of all, you have again chosen to ignore my repeated clarifications that adaptation would only make sense as a fusion with druidism meant to enhance their ability to protect the wilds, not to intentionally destroy them. This is adaptation, not replacement.

This is looking increasingly like you trying to defend your personal preference - there is nothing to defend. If you just don't want the Night Elves to develop, there is nothing wrong with that and we can agree to disagree.

Now, before you start quoting sections and winding up zingers, be aware that if I think you're ignoring answers I've already given, or that if you're ignoring the overall point that I'm trying to advance, I'm done replying to you. I'm not getting into a protracted multi-page fight over this, and there are dozens of other scenarios that are worthy of discussion besides this one.
__________________

Last edited by Kyalin V. Raintree; 12-22-2017 at 05:12 PM..
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
alliance whining, fanfiction, horde bias, knife-ears, night elf tears, night elves, warcraft

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:26 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.