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Old 04-05-2018, 07:31 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Horde Flag Lots of people want pre-Cata Thrall back, but I think he was a negligent ruler

Before Cataclysm, Thrall, as a leader and ruler, was being constantly vocal about being honorable and achieving peace between the factions, while ignoring the fact that his men and Varian's men were killing each other without a break.

Let's not forget he also ignored the fact that Sylvanas had a *dreadlord* within her ranks (and also donning a position of leadership within her faction), not to mention her acts throughout Hillsbrad.

That makes him either blind or lazy.

Doesn't that make you think of our real world politicians, who are not only demagogues (tell what the people want to hear) but also negligent (ignore the very problems they're supposed to address, according to their ideals)?
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Old 04-05-2018, 07:39 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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It's less that Thrall is neglient and more bad writing combined with bad planning on the part of the developers.
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Old 04-06-2018, 01:22 AM
Lon-ami Lon-ami is offline

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Originally Posted by Cacofonix View Post
It's less that Thrall is neglient and more bad writing combined with bad planning on the part of the developers.
This, they made Thrall retarded, because working on an elaborate plot with moral conflicts is "too hard for MMOs".

WoW's Horde is a clusterfuck and a spit on the face to the events of Warcraft III.
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Old 04-06-2018, 02:42 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Lon-ami View Post
WoW's Horde is a clusterfuck and a spit on the face to the events of Warcraft III.
Though I'm pretty sure that throughout Warcraft's long and successful history, every new game has spit on the events of the game before it.

Possibly including major expansions within WoW itself.
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Old 04-06-2018, 05:51 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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People still want Thrall back?

Just subsume the Horde into the Alliance already.
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I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
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Old 04-06-2018, 09:36 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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People still want Thrall back?

Just subsume the Horde into the Alliance already.
Kill of Proto-Anduin/Jaina and I'll accept that.
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Old 04-08-2018, 11:03 PM
Krakhed Krakhed is offline

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Originally Posted by Anansi View Post
People still want Thrall back?

Just subsume the Horde into the Alliance already.
There was a clear distinction between Horde and Alliance even when Thrall was in charge. You don't need pointless war or one side to be evil for faction distinction.

And Thrall is one character the writers would be too scared to turn evil or kill off. The Horde would be using his plot armor to escape the villain bat. Vol'jin's problem is that he wasn't the writer's pet. But Thrall? He could shield the Horde. He might make the Horde all about himself, giving us the same problem the Alliance faces now, but we wouldn't have to be villains.

In fact, people opposed to Thrall tend to be villains. The Alliance would have to be the aggressors with Thrall in charge. So the Horde gets its break from being monsters, and the Alliance gets its turn to have the villain bat shoved up its ass like it so desperately wants.
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Old 04-09-2018, 12:57 AM
Omacron Omacron is offline


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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Though I'm pretty sure that throughout Warcraft's long and successful history, every new game has spit on the events of the game before it.

Possibly including major expansions within WoW itself.
Pretty much this.

They took away our necrolytes and warlocks?

They let Orgrim "the backstabber" Doomhammer lead the Horde?

They added submarines and flying machines to my fantasy?

The horde is all of a sudden living in wooden huts? Where are the black rock and metal factories? Why are the trolls gray instead of green?

Why are these purple elves druids? What happened to the ones that made the runestone at Caer Darrow?
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Old 04-09-2018, 10:45 AM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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Originally Posted by Krakhed View Post
So the Horde gets its break from being monsters, and the Alliance gets its turn to have the villain bat shoved up its ass like it so desperately wants.
Effectively every attempt to darken the Alliance from TFT onward has been awkward from being blatantly out-of-place with how it's otherwise depicted and driven more from game design issues than anything else (Garithos, the Dalaran purge), retconned (Lee Van Cleef), or swept under the rug (Camp Tauranjo, which Baine himself waved off). I don't know how you'd expect an attempt to make the Alliance the aggressor for once to not be underwhelming.

Last edited by Cacofonix; 04-09-2018 at 10:51 AM..
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Old 04-09-2018, 03:09 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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I can't say I've ever read an Alliance fan say they want the villain bat. Truth of the matter is, Alliance fans (including myself) don't want the villain bat. Me and and I'm sure a fair few others would rather see more internal conflict and compelling stories beyond just boring lawful good overdrive.
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  #11  
Old 04-09-2018, 04:29 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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The Alliance isn't allowed to have internal conflict unless it's just showing how badwrong one Alliance character is for being mean to the Horde and/or arguing with King Varian/Anduin.
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  #12  
Old 04-10-2018, 10:05 AM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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Well, Thrall certainly seems to agree with your assessment.
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  #13  
Old 06-01-2018, 12:29 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Relevant read: http://childrenofwrath.blogspot.com/...th-thrall.html

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If Aslan had given up Edmund in The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe, and none of the Pevensies spoke out against it, then C.S. Lewis probably wouldn't hold his revered place in the pantheon of storytellers. The story worked because Aslan is the Jesus Allegory Lion, and he did what Jesus Allegory Lions do.

This is where Thrall falls short. He's the Jesus Allegory Orc, savior of his people, able to walk on water, and return from the dead. But he doesn't act the way his backstory and characterization have set him up. The driving influence in Thrall's backstory was his time spent as a slave and gladiator in Durnholde. So, when he fufills his destiny and forges a reborn Horde, does he outlaw slavery, as a just ruler would do? Nope, because one of the driving forces in King Wrynn's backstory is that he was captured and held as a slave by Rehgar Earthfury, and forced to fight in the gladiator pits in Dire Maul. Blackmoore was an uncharacteristic human, operating far from the oversight of authority, and was a drunk and morose man who plotted against his fellows and no one in the Alliance speaks well of. Perhaps, King Wrynn ran into a similar situation? Perhaps Thrall did take steps to stamp out slavery in the Horde, but its insidious nature persisted in the dark corners far from his steely gaze? This would be a bit of a stretch, but it's one that could have worked. But is it what happens? No. In the comic, Jaina convinces Varian to attend a peace summit at Theramore to attempt to build a peaceful relationship with Thrall and the Horde. Varian brings Valeera, a Blood Elf who escaped slavery with Varian, and his son Anduin. Thrall brings Garrosh, who from a chronological perspective, made the first of his asshat moments, and Reghar Earthfury, the orc who kept two of the members of the Alliance delegation as slaves against their will. Not only does he tolerate slavery within the Horde, he thinks it's a good idea to make the slavemaster a trusted adviser on the peace process. No one brought up how immensely hypocritical and bone headed this is, and yet people wonder why Varian doesn't like Thrall. It's completely out of character for someone coming from the backstory Thrall has, and it's completely out of character for everyone around him to not notice. Have the races of Azeroth simply not discovered the most basic of social prudence?

This leads into what becomes Thrall's most damning problem. He's a storyline singularity. A black hole that warps those around him such that even the most basic literary laws simply don't hold anymore.
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Old 06-01-2018, 02:48 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Well that is an intellectually dishonest analysis. For one it ignores what that Thrall's character was ruined after vanilla so the WotLK comic doesn't count. Plus the guy who writes that is dishonest in also blaming Thrall for bringing Rehgar but Varian was cool and friendly with Rehghar which that person glosses over.

Not a fan of what Thrall has become but lets be honest here.
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Old 06-01-2018, 02:48 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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You can easily apply that to Sylvanas and necromancy.
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  #16  
Old 06-01-2018, 05:36 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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Originally Posted by Noitora View Post
You can easily apply that to Sylvanas and necromancy.
The difference is that Thrall has long been presented as a paragon of virture who's respected even by what should be his enemies (see the attendants of his wedding). Sylvanas from TFT onward has long been presented as conniving and scheming. Her using the same methods as her enemy isn't at odds with how she's shown compared to Thrall's actions.
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  #17  
Old 06-04-2018, 06:12 AM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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Originally Posted by Cacofonix View Post
It's less that Thrall is neglient and more bad writing combined with bad planning on the part of the developers.
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Originally Posted by Lon-ami View Post
This, they made Thrall retarded, because working on an elaborate plot with moral conflicts is "too hard for MMOs".

WoW's Horde is a clusterfuck and a spit on the face to the events of Warcraft III.
A character can only be what is written though. If Thrall was written to be negligent then he is negligent. He is not a real life figure that's independent of what people think of him.

Personally I preferred WC3 Thrall who didn't sit around and got down to business.
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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
I can't say I've ever read an Alliance fan say they want the villain bat. Truth of the matter is, Alliance fans (including myself) don't want the villain bat. Me and and I'm sure a fair few others would rather see more internal conflict and compelling stories beyond just boring lawful good overdrive.
I don't think Alliance fans want the villain bat, but they do want to kick Horde ass. The villain bat, shade of grey, and internal conflict is just a vehicle to achieve the said goal.

Last edited by TerrorhoofMayo; 06-04-2018 at 06:21 AM..
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  #18  
Old 06-04-2018, 06:52 AM
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Originally Posted by C9H20 View Post
Well that is an intellectually dishonest analysis. For one it ignores what that Thrall's character was ruined after vanilla so the WotLK comic doesn't count. Plus the guy who writes that is dishonest in also blaming Thrall for bringing Rehgar but Varian was cool and friendly with Rehghar which that person glosses over.

Not a fan of what Thrall has become but lets be honest here.
Also he describes Thrall as a "Jesus Allegory Orc" rather than what he really is, a "Moses/Joshua Allegory Orc."
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Old 06-04-2018, 07:49 PM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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Yeah, the Green Jesus meme seems more like a product of his over saturation in Cataclysm.
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Old 06-04-2018, 09:06 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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No one complains about the over-saturation of Khadgar across two expansions.

The problem isn't the presence of the character, but it being written with shit quality.
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Old 06-05-2018, 06:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Krainz View Post
No one complains about the over-saturation of Khadgar across two expansions.

The problem isn't the presence of the character, but it being written with shit quality.
Which does not make that "Jesus Allegory Orc" descriptor any less wrong.
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  #22  
Old 06-05-2018, 10:09 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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No one complains about the over-saturation of Khadgar across two expansions.
I do.

Taking Jaina's job. What a prick.
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