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  #51  
Old 06-12-2018, 07:37 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Originally Posted by Ganishka View Post
The saltpocalypse is pretty great. People seem to not remember that Nathanos' short story hinted at the Forsaken losing physical strength as their limbs rotted, so that isn't new (but people are stupidly acting like it is). That, or they all just forgot that it's been stated that the Forsaken are all just falling apart.

Same with the Forsaken having to take new names. Nathanos changed his name, and now that Sylvanas has been going steadily more batshit ever since Arthas died, it makes some twisted sense that she would start forcing her people to give up on their identities of their past lives. Especially after the "Godfrey Incident". Same with going "full Hitler/Stalin" with confiscations of books, reeducation, and Fascist thuggery.
I like how people complain that they made Sylvanas and Forsaken too evil, then you read about the Forsaken in the vanilla WoW game manual and realize Blizzard always intended them to be a stand-in for playable Scourge since the game came out.

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Undead (Forsaken)

Bound to the iron will of the tyrant Lich King, the vast undead armies of the Scourge seek to eradicate all life on Azeroth. Led by the banshee Sylvanas Windrunner, one group of undead broke away from the Scourge and freed themselves of the Lich King's domination. These renegades call themselves the Forsaken. They fight a constant battle not only to retain their freedom from the Scourge, but also to exterminate those who would hunt them as monsters.

With Sylvanas as their banshee queen, the Forsaken have built a dark stronghold beneath the ruins of Lordaeron's former capital city. This hidden ‘Undercity’ forms a sprawling labyrinth that stretches beneath the haunted woods of the Tirisfal Glades. From this bastion, the Forsaken wage an unending battle against the Scourge as well as the remaining humans who still seek to reclaim their lands. For though the very land is cursed, the zealous humans of the Scarlet Crusade cling to their scattered holdings, obsessed with eradicating the undead and retaking their once-beautiful homeland.

Convinced that the primitive races of the Horde can help them achieve victory over their enemies, the Forsaken have entered an alliance of convenience with the savage orcs and the proud tauren. Harboring no true loyalty for their new allies, they will go to any lengths to ensure their dark plans come to fruition. As one of the Forsaken, you must eliminate any who pose a threat to the new order – be they human, undead, or otherwise.

Undercity

Far beneath the ruined capital city of Lordaeron, the royal crypts have been turned into a bastion of evil and undeath. Arthas originally intended the Undercity to be the Scourge's seat of power, but the budding city was abandoned when he was recalled to aid the Lich King in distant Northrend. In Arthas' absence, the Dark Lady, Sylvanas Windrunner, led the rebel Forsaken to the Undercity and claimed it for her own. Since taking up residence, the Forsaken have worked to complete the Undercity's construction by dredging out the twisted maze of catacombs, tombs, and dungeons that Arthas began.
https://wow.gamepedia.com/World_of_W....28Forsaken.29

Honestly, I don't really get the outrage. I thought Forsaken fans would love that their identity would be tied even more to their Undeath, because honestly that's the takeaway I get from Sylvanas doing this, but I guess they want to have their cake and eat it too where they want to try to play some form of Undead that also respects their Lordaeron heritage, which I think is rather impossible since the Forsaken have so radically shifted in their culture away from what Lordaeron used to represent. Lordaeron used to be a holy place of light and hope, and now it's become a dark kingdom of ruin and despair.

I honestly think a political divide is on the horizon for the Forsaken soon.
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  #52  
Old 06-12-2018, 07:51 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Well, they want to be tragic Phantom of the Opera-esque figures who do bad things but are very sympathetic, and emphasizing the "fallen humans" angle serves that, but it doesn't work if their actions are always at odds with that, with the biggest sticking point probably being their membership in the Horde.

Honestly, you could play the "tragic fallen humans who are morally and aesthetically dark" angle a lot more believably if they were Alliance. Keep most of their actions the same (but tone down the indiscriminate killing) and the angle works, with humanity having to work out the fact that a considerable amount of their population are now undead.

But the way it is now, every attempt to play that "tragic fallen humans" narrative is weighed down by the fact that they're Horde. You can make the argument that they shouldn't be Alliance because they clash with Alliance aesthetics, but if you're going to go "fallen humans" with them they then clash with Horde aesthetics.

Shit, I'm not even sure that their present aesthetic even clashes with Alliance aesthetic too much. The Scourge storyline was heavily intertwined with the Alliance from the get-go and the Scourge itself is sometimes very explicitly portrayed as a sort of "anti-Alliance" with all the trappings of the Alliance, but perverted.
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  #53  
Old 06-12-2018, 09:21 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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Fojar's right.

We're at the point that the only recent attempt to answer "How come the Forsaken aren't Alliance" is with "Sylvanas sent emissaries who died and its the Alliance's fault really." An afterthought. They're far too over-the-top in their supervillainy to be buyable as the tragic Lordaeronians with skin conditions.
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  #54  
Old 06-12-2018, 11:01 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Well, they want to be tragic Phantom of the Opera-esque figures who do bad things but are very sympathetic, and emphasizing the "fallen humans" angle serves that, but it doesn't work if their actions are always at odds with that, with the biggest sticking point probably being their membership in the Horde.

Honestly, you could play the "tragic fallen humans who are morally and aesthetically dark" angle a lot more believably if they were Alliance. Keep most of their actions the same (but tone down the indiscriminate killing) and the angle works, with humanity having to work out the fact that a considerable amount of their population are now undead.

But the way it is now, every attempt to play that "tragic fallen humans" narrative is weighed down by the fact that they're Horde. You can make the argument that they shouldn't be Alliance because they clash with Alliance aesthetics, but if you're going to go "fallen humans" with them they then clash with Horde aesthetics.

Shit, I'm not even sure that their present aesthetic even clashes with Alliance aesthetic too much. The Scourge storyline was heavily intertwined with the Alliance from the get-go and the Scourge itself is sometimes very explicitly portrayed as a sort of "anti-Alliance" with all the trappings of the Alliance, but perverted.
It is ironic when thinking about it... that Forsaken would be much more likely to be like Tim Burton-esque heroes if they had been placed in the Alliance. They'd be a lot like Worgen or Void Elves in that regard, truly heroic monsters that look dark and scary but still genuinely want to do good and want to rekindle their former human life. A good segment of Forsaken fans do basically want to be like the citizens of Halloweentown rather than Scourge-lite, but I think Scourge-lite is the only logical conclusion to the direction the Forsaken have been going in from this point onward.

In a lot of ways it's why I've grown more fond of the thought that Undead should have been an Alliance race in vanilla. Trading places with Night Elves maybe? Meh sure, I don't care. It would have solved a lot of headaches in the long run as well, like gameplay mechanics forcing Gilneas to be in the abandoned state it's in and only just now being told to us that it's reclaimed rather than shown. It would have fallen in line with Blizzard's habit of subverting fantasy tropes and establish something unique from other settings, where Humans and Undead are not mortal enemies but are allies with a common goal.
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  #55  
Old 06-13-2018, 10:23 AM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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Graves for the characters that die in Before the Storm were added to the revamped Arathi in the Beta.

http://www.wowhead.com/news=284948/g...-beta-spoilers
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  #56  
Old 06-13-2018, 10:59 AM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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I disagree that the Forsaken need to be Alliance to be Heroes. They just need a redemption story. Which, they seem to be moving towards in the game and story, with Sylvanas being shown to be the actual "problem" in Forsaken society, along with several Forsaken or recently-raised Undead being shown sympathetically. They've also prepared a "successor" for Sylvanas in the form of Calia Menethil. All they would need to do, at this point, is do what they did with the Blood Elves: wipe out the traitorous and insane leader and her sycophants, and then the populace turns over a new leaf after seeing fully what kind of monster they were following and being given a way out.
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  #57  
Old 06-13-2018, 12:48 PM
Taintedmage Taintedmage is offline

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Nah, fuck redemption stories, I prefer the amoral asshole role as part of an alliance of convenience.
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  #58  
Old 06-13-2018, 04:45 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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I disagree that the Forsaken need to be Alliance to be Heroes. They just need a redemption story. Which, they seem to be moving towards in the game and story, with Sylvanas being shown to be the actual "problem" in Forsaken society, along with several Forsaken or recently-raised Undead being shown sympathetically. They've also prepared a "successor" for Sylvanas in the form of Calia Menethil. All they would need to do, at this point, is do what they did with the Blood Elves: wipe out the traitorous and insane leader and her sycophants, and then the populace turns over a new leaf after seeing fully what kind of monster they were following and being given a way out.
Ah the Garrosh approach to "redemption"

And even this scenario wouldn't alter the problem of "Why AREN'T they Alliance?" Especially since Calia has been established as being straight up Alliance and most of those good Forsaken would defect given the chance.
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  #59  
Old 06-13-2018, 05:34 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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Knowing dev writing and its unwillingness to have the Horde/Forsaken get suitable consequences, they'll have Forsaken Calia turn on the Alliance and be "FO DUH HOODE" in the next expansion.
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  #60  
Old 06-13-2018, 06:00 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Knowing dev writing and its unwillingness to have the Horde/Forsaken get suitable consequences, they'll have Forsaken Calia turn on the Alliance and be "FO DUH HOODE" in the next expansion.
While I can't disagree with the sentiment not even I in my wildest dreams ever thought that the Forsaken would ever actually be ejected from Lordaeron.

Which is the key element here that lots of people are forgetting; the Forsaken no longer control Lordaeron. Barring some warfronts and skirmishes, the Alliance has a decisive strategic advantage in the region at the very least, and with Gilneas, Stromgarde, and Kul'Tiras back in the Alliance, to say nothing about the Wildhammers and the Argent Crusade, for the first time since Warcraft 3 undead are no longer the dominant force on the Lordaeron subcontinent.

The biggest thing that explicitly would attach the Forsaken to Lordaeron, the fact that they controlled it, is gone. And when you combine that with the fact that the Forsaken's ranks now include humans from every kingdom and a number of non-humans, they no longer have any connection to Lordaeron beyond what they have to any other human kingdom.

So the way things are now, Calia doesn't have any stronger a relationship with the Forsaken than Anduin or Genn or Jaina or Alleria does. Her actions in BtS combined with the new geopolitical status quo in BfA cements her and Lordaeron's future as Alliance barring an unlikely (but still unfortunately possible) reversion to the pre-expansion status quo after BfA, which seems like it would be a hard sell with the Undercity filled with blight.

And even if such a reversion does occur with Calia leading the Forsaken, she has no interest in perpetuating undeath, which would mean that the Forsaken would slowly die out as time passes anyway.
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  #61  
Old 06-13-2018, 07:03 PM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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Ah the Garrosh approach to "redemption"
Hey, it worked.

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And even this scenario wouldn't alter the problem of "Why AREN'T they Alliance?" Especially since Calia has been established as being straight up Alliance and most of those good Forsaken would defect given the chance.
Because the Alliance has always been murderously bigoted towards the Undead? Them becoming more tolerant of them is a very recent thing. Like, post-Legion recent. The Forsaken's first contact with Stormwind was when they butchered their ambassadors (which was at least somewhat understandable due to paranoia about the Plague of Undeath). Their second contact with the Humans was the Scarlet Crusade, who were backed by Stormwind. Then there's the Humans of Southshore and Hillsbrad constantly trying to exterminate them, and waging guerrilla warfare on Tarren Mill.

Those are all pretty solid reasons.
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  #62  
Old 06-13-2018, 07:07 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Waging guerilla war on Tarren Mill from my headquarters, buried up to my neck in feces on what used to be my farm

I mean basically everything you just posted is either a fabrication of a massive exaggeration of what actually happened so whatever
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  #63  
Old 06-13-2018, 07:14 PM
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So is sylvanas gonna end up loot pinata or not?
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Old 06-13-2018, 07:22 PM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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Waging guerilla war on Tarren Mill from my headquarters, buried up to my neck in feces on what used to be my farm

I mean basically everything you just posted is either a fabrication of a massive exaggeration of what actually happened so whatever
You can stick your fingers in your ears all you want, Fojar. The Alliance still attacked the Forsaken first, and then worked with and tacitly supported the Scarlet Crusade.

Them being more tolerant of the Forsaken only happened in the recent book. Before Calia came back, they had less then zero reason to go to the Alliance, especially after King Varian decided to polish his dick about wanting to exterminate them all and invaded their city.

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So is sylvanas gonna end up loot pinata or not?
Most likely. If not a loot pinata, than at least a "heroic sacrifice" kind of deal.
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  #65  
Old 06-13-2018, 07:28 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Tacitly supporting the Scarlet Crusade by attacking their monastary and killing them all

Polishing my war-dick from my cage in the Apothecarium

lol
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  #66  
Old 06-13-2018, 07:52 PM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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Tacitly supporting the Scarlet Crusade by attacking their monastary and killing them all
Not canon, as that was done by Darion Mograine.

Post-Cata is also not canon, as that was done by Lilian Voss and the Horde, which is backed up later, as she still wields the runeblades she was given during the Scarlet Monastery attack, that were used to put Whitemane down permanently.

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Polishing my war-dick from my cage in the Apothecarium

lol
They only do so because God-Mary-Sue-King Chynn decided to have his insane little romp into the Undercity.
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  #67  
Old 06-13-2018, 07:59 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Nah, fuck redemption stories, I prefer the amoral asshole role as part of an alliance of convenience.
This, that is part of the charm of the Forsaken as they are in the Horde. I think them being replaced by a Light variant of them entirely would water them down, and they should find some way of working as members the Horde with Sylvanas gone but still retaining their more Shadow-themed, anti-hero aspects. Personally, I still think the whole thing with Calia is far more likely to be setting up a precedent for an Undead allied race being put in the Alliance. When you have Greymane of all people seeing the good in them now, that is a pretty monumental development. Them going Horde seems like a waste, since they'll just inevitably end up holding the same ball as the Forsaken have since opposing the Alliance in any way ends up just making you lose the moral highground. It would end up regressing all the interesting things that were set up in this book about how Humans and Undead can co-exist by dashing it on the rocks once again with having them suddenly on the faction that opposes humanity.
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Old 06-13-2018, 08:43 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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The Alliance's leadership let the Lich King's generals into its military with effectively no opposition. This among other examples (like an Alliance commander's interactions with some defecting Forsaken and other Alliance interactions with non-hostile Undead or really just the Night Elves even being there) shows that the meme of "Alliance is filled with nasty mean waycis/bigot/whatever in it" is at best a case of failing to show instead of telling.

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Old 06-13-2018, 08:54 PM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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This, that is part of the charm of the Forsaken as they are in the Horde. I think them being replaced by a Light variant of them entirely would water them down, and they should find some way of working as members the Horde with Sylvanas gone but still retaining their more Shadow-themed, anti-hero aspects. Personally, I still think the whole thing with Calia is far more likely to be setting up a precedent for an Undead allied race being put in the Alliance. When you have Greymane of all people seeing the good in them now, that is a pretty monumental development. Them going Horde seems like a waste, since they'll just inevitably end up holding the same ball as the Forsaken have since opposing the Alliance in any way ends up just making you lose the moral highground. It would end up regressing all the interesting things that were set up in this book about how Humans and Undead can co-exist by dashing it on the rocks once again with having them suddenly on the faction that opposes humanity.
The Forsaken shouldn't have been forced into the Horde to begin with. The Horde's morality was ruined by the Forsaken being shoehorned in.

I'll be more than thankful if they "water down" the Forsaken. Blizzard trying to appeal to edgelords hurts the rest of the more honorable Horde players and themes. Blizzard has shown that they can't write "anti-heroes" in terms of the factions at all, and always ends up beating the Horde to death with the villain bat and calling it "morally grey". If they can't write it, without the entire Horde player base having to suffer for it, than it is best to just eradicate it.

Blood Elves have remained pretty compelling, when they are used. I don't see why the Forsaken can't get the same treatment. Especially if Calia becomes their Queen. We already have precedence of a Kingdom whose population is made up of "cursed" individuals and led by one of the same
living alongside their Human family members (Gilneas), I don't see why the people of Lordaeron can't do the same, but on the Horde. Sylvanas is also the primary reason why the Forsaken "hate" Humans. She keeps the propaganda going. If she, and her regime, are destroyed, there is no reason left for the Forsaken to remain anti-Human. Hell, there's no reason for the Factions to ever war again after that, I'd wager.

I doubt that they are going to give both Lordaeron and Ashenvale to the Alliance permanently (we know that they aren't going to just leave the Night Elves without a city). We're very likely going to see those lands returned to their original inhabitants post-BfA.
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Old 06-13-2018, 08:59 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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So how come Calia's Undead Posse don't go Alliance?
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Old 06-13-2018, 09:10 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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itt Ganishka actively advocates shit writing where nobody faces consequences for anything and the status quo is immutable
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  #72  
Old 06-13-2018, 09:22 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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The Forsaken shouldn't have been forced into the Horde to begin with. The Horde's morality was ruined by the Forsaken being shoehorned in.
Well, like I said, I like what we have now but I also would have thought that Undead on the Alliance would have been a very bold and interesting move on Blizzard's part. I think that would have made a very well-done concept of subverting standard fantasy tropes by having Humans and Undead work together rather than be at odds with each other that is so common in other stock fantasy settings.

That's not what Blizzard went with at the beginning, but I don't mind them trying again for round two with this allied race system.

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Originally Posted by Ganishka View Post
I'll be more than thankful if they "water down" the Forsaken. Blizzard trying to appeal to edgelords hurts the rest of the more honorable Horde players and themes. Blizzard has shown that they can't write "anti-heroes" in terms of the factions at all, and always ends up beating the Horde to death with the villain bat and calling it "morally grey". If they can't write it, without the entire Horde player base having to suffer for it, than it is best to just eradicate it.
I hate to say it, but, 'edgelords' is an appeal of the Horde for a very large number of their fasnbase. I still remember it as far back as vanilla, to the effect of "I'm Horde because being a good guy is boring and not many other fantasy games let me play as more of an amoral monster". That comes with its own story flaws, but so too can you say the same for story themes the Alliance has. Hell, for all the complaints about Void Elves being an edgelord race, that is nothing really reflected in their writing and they're just straight-laced good guys who use shadow magic instead of Light or Druidism so as not to offend the Alliance's thematic of everyone being uniform in their ideals and morality.

It's why I imagine the proper counterpart for more heroic Undead put on the Alliance are going to be a more darker and edgier flavor of Worgen put on the Horde. I won't say that's something I want, because I don't want it, but I think I've come to understand that that's the type of identity that Blizzard wants to establish for both factions.

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Originally Posted by Ganishka View Post
We already have precedence of a Kingdom whose population is made up of "cursed" individuals and led by one of the same
living alongside their Human family members (Gilneas), I don't see why the people of Lordaeron can't do the same, but on the Horde.
It's not really something I'm going to get into the habit of fervently defending until it actually happens, but I don't really think it helps the case when using an Alliance race as an example and just reinforces to me that it makes no sense for them ever to join a faction and immediately be hostiles to my Human character when I just got done reading a story about why my Human character should not see them as evil monsters anymore.

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Originally Posted by Ganishka View Post
Sylvanas is also the primary reason why the Forsaken "hate" Humans. She keeps the propaganda going. If she, and her regime, are destroyed, there is no reason left for the Forsaken to remain anti-Human. Hell, there's no reason for the Factions to ever war again after that, I'd wager.
Then the only reason I can see being for why they are put on the Horde is some forced idiot ball holding done for the Alliance that alienates them into the Horde which, like anyone who is a devoted fan of their own faction, I would have to say I'm not in support of as a good story to give to us.

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Originally Posted by Ganishka View Post
I doubt that they are going to give both Lordaeron and Ashenvale to the Alliance permanently (we know that they aren't going to just leave the Night Elves without a city). We're very likely going to see those lands returned to their original inhabitants post-BfA.
I honestly hope not. I would actually really like for this faction war to actually have tangible gains and losses that are reflected by the world and actually stick with it. If they don't, then I do predict a shitstorm will happen over Ashenvale being a trade-off for Lordaeron, because Ashenvale will always remain a contested zone due to being so important to Horde leveling just as it is with Alliance.
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  #73  
Old 06-13-2018, 09:30 PM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
itt Ganishka actively advocates shit writing where nobody faces consequences for anything and the status quo is immutable
>Nobody faces consequences.
>Sylvanas is likely going to die.

Fucking kek. Also, the "consequences" are that two cities disappear for an entire expansion. I also want the "status quo" to end. The Faction War garbage needs to be shitcanned, as they can't really escalate it any further after this expansion.
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Last edited by Ganishka; 06-13-2018 at 09:35 PM..
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  #74  
Old 06-13-2018, 10:07 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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It's already been said that this expansion won't end like Pandaland did. I really doubt that they'll go and let you stab Sylvanas to Super Death instead of capturing her. Not like she's the final boss either.
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Old 06-13-2018, 11:02 PM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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It's already been said that this expansion won't end like Pandaland did. I really doubt that they'll go and let you stab Sylvanas to Super Death instead of capturing her. Not like she's the final boss either.
I wonder if it ends with Odyn and the newly reorganized Watchers taking over the world, telling us that if we don’t stop fighting then Azeroth will never “come to order.”

That or the resurgence of the black empire as tentacles grasp our armadas and drag them into the deep, Dark Below.
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