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View Poll Results: What will happen?
Something like SoO 2 20.00%
Mirrored raid(s) with Sylvanas and an Alliance char dying. 1 10.00%
Sylvanas will die in a scenario 1 10.00%
Sylvanas will escape to be a threat in the future 4 40.00%
Sylvanas will win and/or be redeemed 2 20.00%
Voters: 10. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old 10-27-2018, 09:53 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Default Siege of Orgrimmar 2.0

Siege of Orgrimmar, we know it, we hate it, we really don't want to see a repeat of it and yet that seems increasingly likely. What is to be done?

So even as soon as BfA was announced some like me predicted that it smells like SoO 2.0 but Blizzard assured us that is not the case. But as time goes on all the dice fall the same way, crazy Horde leader, unwarranted aggression and most damningly the Warchief turns on dissenters which seems to spawn a new rebellion.
So how can this still be salvaged and SoO 2.0 avoided? Should it be avoided? Share any and all thoughts.


I... am skeptical. Especially after Blizz went "both sides will have reasons for war and the cause of it is not clear cut" and "Teldrassil will be a surprise" and ofc neither was true nor a surprise, it was Sylvanas on both accounts and the aggression of her Horde... so why trust Blizz this time? There are obvious copouts like "see it is a siege of her secret bunker under Undercity, not Orgrimmar, totally a different thing" or some third locations for the raid where both Horde and Alliance attack her. I guess if the Horde attacks her of its own volition at a non-Horde location with the Alliance or alone (both factions get their own version which are mutually exclusive with only one being canon) it would be considerably different that SoO but I know I and most others would still find this a copout.

There are hints that Sylvanas will be assassinated, with Garrona and Voss both implausibly loyal to her Horde and their rogue organization claiming that it will kill unfit leaders. Likewise it would make much sense if the newly raised night elves are also plotting against her. Along with Horde dissidents like Saurfang, Baine and others this is a lot of people who want her dead, the issue is all three of these groups and arguably Alliance assassins as well are mutually opposed to each other or don't know they all want the same thing so I don't see a grand conspiracy forming though knowing Blizz never say never.

Plus Sylvanas dying without a raid seems like a waste the ever hungry raid beast will not allow. I could see mirror raids where the Horde sets out to kill someone important on Ally side (probably Jaina) at the same time the Alliance goes after Sylvanas and we experience one half of the raid while we are shown the other half as a memory like in Zuldazar.

Ofc Sylvanas could win or just escape to be a problem down the line... but I feel her karmic debt is too high for this to happen. Anyway those are my thoughts, I find a SoO 2.0 or something very similar the most likely outcome but I can easily see Blizz asspull something last minute to avoid a backlash. What do you guys think?
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  #2  
Old 10-27-2018, 11:07 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Given that you can choose to side with Sylvanas in 8.1, I find hard to believe that we will end up having a SoO 2.0, especially considering that both the player who sides with Saurfang and the player who sides with Sylvanas will be treated as protagonists.

So it looks more like a plot-point that will be resolved through a questline of sorts, rather than a raid.
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  #3  
Old 10-27-2018, 06:27 PM
Mungo Mungo is offline

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Originally Posted by Krainz View Post
Given that you can choose to side with Sylvanas in 8.1, I find hard to believe that we will end up having a SoO 2.0, especially considering that both the player who sides with Saurfang and the player who sides with Sylvanas will be treated as protagonists.

So it looks more like a plot-point that will be resolved through a questline of sorts, rather than a raid.
Not only that, but a datamined third option has been found where you can tell both sides to fuck off and go to a steam pool to relax. Sounds very nice for a horde who is tired of all the shit their faction is going through.
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  #4  
Old 10-28-2018, 07:14 AM
Icefrost Icefrost is offline

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Originally Posted by Krainz View Post
Given that you can choose to side with Sylvanas in 8.1, I find hard to believe that we will end up having a SoO 2.0, especially considering that both the player who sides with Saurfang and the player who sides with Sylvanas will be treated as protagonists.

So it looks more like a plot-point that will be resolved through a questline of sorts, rather than a raid.
I'm honestly thinking that this entire choice thing is a fairly recent invention that was never originally planned for the expansion. I don't think that the opening couple of moves of BfA:s story got anywhere near the reaction from people that blizzard thought they would.
I'm thinking the choice will be presented to players at pretty much the end of whatever will happen in 8.1 (or earlier on, but for the time being amounts to little more than choosing your patron for a mostly unrelated sidequest somewhere, while the real shit is still waiting to get properly stirred) and there's very little work being done on blizzard's part when it comes to what happens after that, outside of some preliminary foundations applicable to multiple possible scenarios, because they have to wait for the numbers to come in from the vote before actually deciding what to do.
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Originally Posted by Mungo
Not only that, but a datamined third option has been found where you can tell both sides to fuck off and go to a steam pool to relax. Sounds very nice for a horde who is tired of all the shit their faction is going through.
This would also seem to fall in line with the idea of the whole thing being essentially a form of in-game market research by blizzard to see what they should do next, as opposed to already having thought in any detail where all of this is going.
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  #5  
Old 10-28-2018, 07:33 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Admittedly rather than any sort of truly differing activity for the player down the line based on one's choice, the alternative "path" could amount to basically just every future quest in that particular story having the same approximate options each time you're expected to pick a side until the last one.

I.e. it all ends up in the same place with the finale, and the only difference is whether this first "test" was when the Horde player dissented, or if said "breaking point" always happens, but doesn't happen for your specific character until right before the end.

Meaning everyone ends up in the same place with the same mandatory ending for the final patch's segment of faction campaign quests, and the only real difference is whether you previously participated in the content or just handwaved it all like a slightly longer-winded version of the "I've already seen this story" option that's being used for skipping story-driving scenarios and cinematics.

Which would mean in every stage a Horde champion chose to side with Saurfang, but your specific champion might have either left him hanging or just gone home each patch, until finally in the last one it's assumed every champion was driven to the same conclusion by the very end.

Last edited by ARM3481; 10-28-2018 at 07:37 AM..
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  #6  
Old 10-28-2018, 05:00 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Originally Posted by Icefrost View Post
This would also seem to fall in line with the idea of the whole thing being essentially a form of in-game market research by blizzard to see what they should do next, as opposed to already having thought in any detail where all of this is going.
Nah Blizz is incredibly slow in developing things as well as being very loathe to cut finished content, they are already working on the next expansion and maybe the one after that, no way do they not have the patches of this one more or less finished. So at best based on this feedback mechanism you propose (I doubt they are tracking people's picks) they can change the ending slightly but they won't be making new cinematics and redesigning raids.

As ARM says it might give some wiggle room but in the end all players will be shuttled to the same conclusion.
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  #7  
Old 10-28-2018, 07:15 PM
Icefrost Icefrost is offline

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Originally Posted by C9H20 View Post
Nah Blizz is incredibly slow in developing things as well as being very loathe to cut finished content, they are already working on the next expansion and maybe the one after that, no way do they not have the patches of this one more or less finished. So at best based on this feedback mechanism you propose (I doubt they are tracking people's picks) they can change the ending slightly but they won't be making new cinematics and redesigning raids.

As ARM says it might give some wiggle room but in the end all players will be shuttled to the same conclusion.
I think you may have overlooked the part where I implied the exceptionally poor reception of BfA unforeseen by it's developers as justification for changing their plans from whatever they may have had, at which point anyone's faith in their normal MO being many steps ahead is irrelevant.

But let's not look at it from just that direction. Thinking from another angle, you would have be believe that they actually more or less accurately predicted the player response the expansion has gotten so far and had this completely unprecedented (afaik) choice given to players now already in the works back during Warlords?

I don't think so.

Seems far more plausible to me that a few damage control buttons have been hit at blizzard when it comes to 8.1 - and I'm not just talking about the horde side story, or even solely storyline for that matter - especially with everyone expecting them to have something to show at Blizzcon.
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  #8  
Old 10-28-2018, 11:14 PM
Shandalay Shandalay is offline

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I think it's not going to be SoO 2.0, my guess is more something like Siege of Stormwind with Sylvanas finally showing just how many spies and allies she's been able to recruit. There's always been lots and lots of people going to the most insane cults in the Alliance, especially if those cults promised either power or the end of the world. Or both.

Which is also where I think Sylvanas is going and why I think this choice you make about Saurfang is not actually going to have consequences, apart from the player character getting a bad surprise for their loyalty to the Queen.

My guess is she's going to proclaim her allegiance to some big bad at the end, for which she's been working a long time now, thank her loyalists very much and then proceed to try and kill them along with everyone else.

Everyone is going to fight back, she'll escape and be an antagonist in the future.

As such, I also don't think this choice was planned, but they made the change because of players wanting it. I think they thought that everyone might be aware by now that she's not actually working for the Horde anymore and people wanted to stay Horde, so they thought they'd be ok with leaving Sylvanas behind and turning on her. But people were not, so they gave them an 'out' until Sylvanas herself shows what she's up to. The story you get is not anything else, it just leaves out one part of the storyline completely and you get a snarky remark about being a golden hero (I think it's snarky, I know lots of people will not take it as such, ofc) and that's it.

Only if they decide to change the factions into a 'good' (as in: 'we want to stay alive and keep our universe'-faction) and an 'evil' (as in: 'destroy the universe'-evil) faction will the players be able to actually choose her side and stay there. I'd personally like that, but I don't think there's a good chance this will happen.
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Old 10-29-2018, 01:47 AM
Vineyard Vineyard is offline

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Imo. it's just a RP choice, that won't have real consequences ingame.

Well, except that Zappi-Boy will probatly die. But imo. that would have happend anyway.

@SOO 2.0:

Naa, it don't see either this or one on Stormwind.

Imo. the main answer how things will unfold will come, when we finally get more soild leads, who wanted Sylvanas to be Warchief.

This is more just Garrosh 2.0, since his rise was just him becoming Orc-Hitler and Thrall being blinded by his Grom-Bromance and making him Warchief.
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Old 10-29-2018, 04:41 AM
Sonneillon Sonneillon is offline

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We all know shes going to save Azeroth when she dies by raising her which brings the attention of the void.
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Old 10-29-2018, 08:37 AM
Mungo Mungo is offline

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Imo. it's just a RP choice, that won't have real consequences ingame.
Yeah, that's what I figure. But I like RPing, and it would be nice to flip off the faction war and go on vacation, if just for a little while.
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Old 10-29-2018, 05:39 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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They might be planning to anchor a ship off the coast. Then it could shell Sylvanas, but she wouldn't be able to return fire.

(I miss this.)
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Old 10-29-2018, 11:59 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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They might be planning to anchor a ship off the coast. Then it could shell Sylvanas, but she wouldn't be able to return fire.

(I miss this.)
Too bad Battle for Azeroth references a couple of examples where juggernaughs were able to return fire (successfully) during the Second War.
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Old 10-30-2018, 02:48 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Too bad Battle for Azeroth references a couple of examples where juggernaughs were able to return fire (successfully) during the Second War.
What you got for me? People hated Warlords of Draenor, but I liked some of what we got in terms of orc culture and military heritage.

When you don't play the game, it's hard to harvest information that doesn't relate to faction leaders and current events. What does Battle of Azeroth say about any past experiences from the RTS wars?
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Old 10-30-2018, 09:12 AM
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The most logical option is: she escapes bt also loses everything in the process. That way her fans wont revolt against Blizz, and the Hordefans still feel like thy won.

Who cares what the Alliance thinks of this.
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Old 10-30-2018, 11:28 AM
Icefrost Icefrost is offline

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she escapes bt also loses everything in the process.

Who cares what the Alliance thinks of this.
Loses everything...as in what?
Because if that includes losing her war campaign progress in Kalimdor to Kaldorei and worgen, and as the story progresses, that Darkshore warfront ends up getting recontextualized into more of a Forsaken last stand than the opposite, then this "alliance" fan is A-Okay with that.

On a more cynical and realistic note though, I find it interesting that pretty much everyone seems to take it for granted that Sylvanas is a villain and that's that. Thing is, part of my original point that I was making here is that, absurd as it may seem in hindsight, I'm not entirely convinced Blizzard intended for their audience to see it that way, given how a lot of the early material for the expansion was presented.
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Old 10-31-2018, 12:16 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Temo View Post
The most logical option is: she escapes bt also loses everything in the process. That way her fans wont revolt against Blizz, and the Hordefans still feel like thy won.

Who cares what the Alliance thinks of this.
Alliance fans obviously, and why should Blizzard only care about what Sylvanas and Horde fans want in an expansion that's specifically about both of the factions?
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Old 10-31-2018, 07:10 AM
Ujimasa Hojo Ujimasa Hojo is offline

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Whatever the case, I hope they don't do crazy 180 degrees. None of the Orc fatigue garbage in Warlords of Draenor.
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Old 11-03-2018, 01:52 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vineyard View Post
Imo. it's just a RP choice, that won't have real consequences ingame.


Full interview:
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Old 11-03-2018, 08:01 PM
AndyJP AndyJP is offline

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Sylvanas is right. Honor in war is unrealistic, Saurfang doesn't need to get consent from his enemies to cleave them. You can't be friends with the dudes you're killing. You can't send a letter to your enemies declaring your intention to sneak attack them. I'm not a Sylvanas fan, but I do agree with her viewpoint and Saurfang's desire for honor in warfare is stupid, and I'm sure everyone he killed would disagree that they died with honor.

Also, let's look at what Sylvanas did:
  • killed a tree
  • there are more
  • build a new treehouse

compared to what Alliance did:
  • Destroyed an entire city
  • was only home most had in their un-life (NEs are EVERYWHERE)
  • Many Forsaken have PTSD and other mental illness already from DYING
  • Abominations are mentally retarded, so they don't even understand why they are being attacked
  • Horde were still grieving over death of previous Warchief and in a transitional period
  • catastrophic property damage vs burning wood
  • Furion can easily just ask treebeards to take form of new house or whatev the fuck
  • caused a big homelessness crisis in another nation when they already have that problem at home
  • Ally recession probably significantly worse after paying for "humble" Anduins fancy outfit
  • Living ex-Lordaeronians probably would have liked to have lived there again
  • Gold to restore Lordaeron, and any other conquered castles means skyrocketing taxes for the average Ally
  • Is not what Varian would have wanted (In last exp trailer they are seen nodding to each other)
  • Plus Varian would have been on front lines unlike Anduin who sends his people to die first
  • EXTREMELY disrespectful and distasteful for tone-deaf Anduin to use holy powers to raise dead in front of so many undead

Conclusion: Anduin is the Hitler, not Sylvanas
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  #21  
Old 11-03-2018, 09:38 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Oh look, faction trolling. How creative.

Last edited by ARM3481; 11-03-2018 at 09:45 PM..
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  #22  
Old 11-04-2018, 07:06 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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While I am pretty sure Andy is trolling, or zapping as it were I also think there is a sliver of a point there. Saurfang did fuck up pretty badly for rather poor reasons when he spared Malfurion. That Horde patrol that died in the cinematic and many more Hordies yet to come will die because of his choice.

Honor in war is a pretty dubious concept. Mainly it means "don't hurt our civilians and we won't hurt yours" and "don't be needlessly cruel and we won't either" as soon as you start talking about "cruel weapons" you are already a bit on shakey ground imo.
Saurfang reacted quickly and cut down an extremely powerful and dangerous enemy, whatever dishonor he saw in that was silly.
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Old 11-04-2018, 11:08 PM
Ujimasa Hojo Ujimasa Hojo is offline

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It does get annoying when you're about to get another leadership change. Anduin is already pretty guaranteed not to be replaced due to that short story showing him a very old.
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Old 11-05-2018, 05:29 AM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ujimasa Hojo View Post
It does get annoying when you're about to get another leadership change. Anduin is already pretty guaranteed not to be replaced due to that short story showing him a very old.
He certainly won’t die, but a lot can happen before he goes gray. Power can shift back and/or forth. He could end up in exile for a while, or be turned into a mere figurehead, and then return to power stronger than ever. The story of his reign is only beginning. Some ups and downs would be good for it.

For example, while obviously Shaw is on board with his plans, do you really think Jaina, Tryande, or even Genn will tolerate this if they find out? Sylvanas knows thanks to those who choose it. Do you think she couldn’t exploit that? Expose Anduin and cause chaos in Alliance leadership?
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Old 11-05-2018, 11:06 AM
Icefrost Icefrost is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ujimasa Hojo View Post
Anduin is already pretty guaranteed not to be replaced due to that short story showing him a very old.
Wait, what short story? Are we talking about Saurfang being let go by him in that cinematic? Or have a missed something big?

Anyway, a thought occurred to me about dealing with Sylvanas. I wonder what would happen among her fans if the following horde quest played out in a future patch: Sylvanas calls upon the player to go on some important, discreet mission with her. Another prominent horde character, let's say Lor'themar just for the hell of it (doesn't really matter who), goes with you two.
The three of you are in a dungeon somewhere. Lor'themar is asked to go check out a side passage for something you're looking for. Sylvanas then looks at something on a wall and asks the player to come closer and see what they make of it. The player gets a zoomed in view of the mural on the wall, Sylvanas' voice in the background instructing the player to look really close at the top-left section of the thing.

That's when she attempts to personally murder Player One, who is left incapacitated and bleeding out on the floor.
Lor'themar shows up ten seconds later, wanting to know what the hell that scream was. Sylvanas is subtly standing in a doorway, blocking Lor'themar from getting a closer look at the player. The player's dutch-angled, low to the ground view is getting blurry now, but they have enough time to hear Sylvanas tell lies about an attacker that was too fast for her to stop, and how "that champion who was with us" was lost.

Obviously, the player is going to be fine and either gets rescued or already has been by the time they come to. By who? What do you think happens next? And more importantly, what would happen to people's general perception of the plot. Would the warchief still have her fanatical followers even after this?
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