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  #28701  
Old 10-01-2017, 12:21 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Sooo, why is the Spanish government being so incredibly stupid? Why didn't they just let Catalonia vote and then say "that's nonbinding, invalid, and means literally nothing" instead of going around beating people and physically removing ballot boxes? Do they just miss Franco that much?
I didn't even care about this issue before, but now I'm hoping Catalonia manages to secede.
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  #28702  
Old 10-01-2017, 12:40 PM
Shekinah Shekinah is offline

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Based on my vague knowledge of what's going on in Spain, the general consensus seems to be that those Catalan savages shouldn't be allowed to rule themselves, lest all hell breaks loose.
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  #28703  
Old 10-01-2017, 02:56 PM
Taintedmage Taintedmage is offline

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the usual rule of thumb for international relations is that you don't recognize secessionist votes of other countries unless: A the main country is not your ally and loss of diplomatic relations means nothing to you or B: unless it is already agreed upon by the main country.

On another note: apparently the NDP elected Singh as their leader.
This effectively means that the NDP will be a non entity until they choose a new leader.

The French (be they Quebecois or France) are strict secularists with the lacite and they Do not trust the openly religious.

Because the NDP didn't get the memo, it means they'll likely lag behind the Conservatives and Liberals for more years to come.
Would you consider voting for a party whose leader is

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  #28704  
Old 10-02-2017, 08:35 AM
Kellick Kellick is offline

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the usual rule of thumb for international relations is that you don't recognize secessionist votes of other countries unless: A the main country is not your ally and loss of diplomatic relations means nothing to you or B: unless it is already agreed upon by the main country.

On another note: apparently the NDP elected Singh as their leader.
This effectively means that the NDP will be a non entity until they choose a new leader.

The French (be they Quebecois or France) are strict secularists with the lacite and they Do not trust the openly religious.

Because the NDP didn't get the memo, it means they'll likely lag behind the Conservatives and Liberals for more years to come.
Would you consider voting for a party whose leader is

Aye. I'm surprised Singh managed to take over half the vote on the half ballot. On the one hand, it shows he's got a great ground game in terms of getting his supporters onboard and engaged. On the other, you're right, the NDP's base is currently in Quebec, and I'm having a hard time seeing how he can translating that ground game into changing decades of political momentum in the province.

It's also part of why I was surprised to see Andrew Scheer get the nomination for the Conservative party, given his background in the evangelical christian brand of conservatism. Granted, the Conservatives don't have a lot to lose in Quebec, so they can probably skate by trying to re-solidify their grip on the Prairies and take back chunks of Ontario and the Maritimes, but it seems short-sighted.

On the topic of Catalonia, this looks like a pretty boneheaded move on Spain's part. Whatever Madrid might think of the Catalan secessionist movement, it has to realize that sending in the police and seizing ballot boxes only lends legitimacy to the referendum (rather than the opposite) and galvanizes voters. The no voters were probably scared shitless to the point they stayed home this time around, so Madrid could plausibly have played the "nah, it don't count" card, but I'd expect if there were any undecided voters, they've probably been lost for good.
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  #28705  
Old 10-02-2017, 09:24 AM
Taintedmage Taintedmage is offline

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Aye. I'm surprised Singh managed to take over half the vote on the half ballot. On the one hand, it shows he's got a great ground game in terms of getting his supporters onboard and engaged. On the other, you're right, the NDP's base is currently in Quebec, and I'm having a hard time seeing how he can translating that ground game into changing decades of political momentum in the province.

It's also part of why I was surprised to see Andrew Scheer get the nomination for the Conservative party, given his background in the evangelical christian brand of conservatism. Granted, the Conservatives don't have a lot to lose in Quebec, so they can probably skate by trying to re-solidify their grip on the Prairies and take back chunks of Ontario and the Maritimes, but it seems short-sighted.
While Scheer has a history with that brand he wasn't pushing evangelical conservatism and from what I'm aware of he has no intention of changing that. I thought the reason that Bernier didn't win was because he was too Libertarian. The guy wanted to pull the plug on most subsidies and supply management. Seeing as how the rural vote tends to like its protected industries it's going to turn them against him.
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  #28706  
Old 10-02-2017, 12:36 PM
Kellick Kellick is offline

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While Scheer has a history with that brand he wasn't pushing evangelical conservatism and from what I'm aware of he has no intention of changing that. I thought the reason that Bernier didn't win was because he was too Libertarian. The guy wanted to pull the plug on most subsidies and supply management. Seeing as how the rural vote tends to like its protected industries it's going to turn them against him.
Yeah, I rather figured Bernier was going to alienate enough of the rural vote that he'd do well in the first round, but fail to get very many second,
third, and/or thirteenth votes in subsequent rounds.

My money was actually on O'Toole, believe it or not. Bit of a return to basics/generics in terms of Canadian conservatism, such that I had predicted he had a decent chance of picking up enough of the votes from eliminated candidates to win the race, provided he stuck around. Scheer honestly wasn't even on my radar. First time I ever heard of him was when he won.

Regardless, we'll see how they tell their message and run their campaigns, and we're still a while from that. Still plenty of time for someone to surprise me.
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  #28707  
Old 10-02-2017, 10:47 PM
Ujimasa Hojo Ujimasa Hojo is offline

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So what's France's position on the Catalonia debacle in Spain? Don't they have a piece of historical Catalonia as well?

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Black woman privilege?
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  #28708  
Old 10-03-2017, 01:03 AM
spidey1980 spidey1980 is offline

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Happy Reunification Day, Germany!


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  #28709  
Old 10-03-2017, 04:29 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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So what's France's position on the Catalonia debacle in Spain? Don't they have a piece of historical Catalonia as well?
We'd be on the brink of war if:

1) The world were actually a game of Crusader Kings , or

2) France were led by Putin.
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  #28710  
Old 10-03-2017, 10:59 AM
Reinhardt Reinhardt is offline

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People are not happy about the way Madrid managed things, but there is no real support for Independence.
We pretty much speak of something else hoping it will go away.
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  #28711  
Old 10-03-2017, 05:29 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Interesting article on how fake news spread like wildfire after the Daily Fail and Faux News covered it.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/zahrahirji/...p4r#.dc3ZppJ2X
Some guy on reddit also did a good write-up on the response of the right-wing population of the site to the fake news and its later retraction.

If you remember that story from like a year ago that accused scientists of tampering with climate change data, that's what this is about.
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  #28712  
Old 10-05-2017, 09:00 PM
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Sad that the world doesn't react to Spain's aggression of Catalonia's fundamental right to choose its own future. It just shows that in the great dance of nations, there is no place for any newcomers. Hypocrites, all of them. But Catalonia needs to continue to fight. Or else, in five years, all of this enthusiasm will be gone and just like Quebec, they will neither be dead nor alive, simply there. To think we'll die under a country that's not even ours. What could we possibly have done to deserve this?

I always wanted Quebec to be the first of the Quebec-Scottland-Catalonia trio to become its own country. I would have wanted us to lead the way for once. But since that is no longer a possibility, may Catalonia do it and maybe rekindle the flame.
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  #28713  
Old 10-05-2017, 10:31 PM
Leviathon Leviathon is offline

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Sad that the world doesn't react to Spain's aggression of Catalonia's fundamental right to choose its own future. It just shows that in the great dance of nations, there is no place for any newcomers. Hypocrites, all of them. But Catalonia needs to continue to fight. Or else, in five years, all of this enthusiasm will be gone and just like Quebec, they will neither be dead nor alive, simply there. To think we'll die under a country that's not even ours. What could we possibly have done to deserve this?

I always wanted Quebec to be the first of the Quebec-Scottland-Catalonia trio to become its own country. I would have wanted us to lead the way for once. But since that is no longer a possibility, may Catalonia do it and maybe rekindle the flame.
I mean lets not pretend like a huge part of the region wants independence. The parts of the region that have the money are the ones that want to stay in Spain and the poorer areas want independence. I'd wager it's based on a misguided belief that independence means money will suddenly go to them. The voting is also just as useful as Puerto Rico statehood voting due to so few people actually voting as there's a good chance many people that didn't vote were the ones that were going to say no (why vote when it's an illegal vote anyway).

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  #28714  
Old 10-06-2017, 03:47 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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I feel that in the '90s, Euskadi was louder than Catalunya.
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  #28715  
Old 10-06-2017, 09:18 PM
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Sad that the world doesn't react to Spain's aggression of Catalonia's fundamental right to choose its own future. It just shows that in the great dance of nations, there is no place for any newcomers. Hypocrites, all of them. But Catalonia needs to continue to fight. Or else, in five years, all of this enthusiasm will be gone and just like Quebec, they will neither be dead nor alive, simply there. To think we'll die under a country that's not even ours. What could we possibly have done to deserve this?

I always wanted Quebec to be the first of the Quebec-Scottland-Catalonia trio to become its own country. I would have wanted us to lead the way for once. But since that is no longer a possibility, may Catalonia do it and maybe rekindle the flame.
Canada gave Quebec two chances, and the door's open by the Supreme Court of Canada if/when the event Quebec wants another referendum. Similarly, the UK gave Scotland the chance to vote on the question of their independence. In this, Spain is the outlier in that they ruled such a referendum would be unconstitutional.
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  #28716  
Old 10-07-2017, 01:32 AM
spidey1980 spidey1980 is offline

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Sad that the world doesn't react to Spain's aggression of Catalonia's fundamental right to choose its own future.
You are naive if you think this whole thing is about anything more than money.
Catalans are already an autonomy with their own government and their own official language. They're also quite wealthy and it's not like they're not free to do what they want with their lives.

What it boils down to is that they don't want to finance Spain anymore and at the same time stay in the EU so they get some EU funds and benefits for themselves. In other words, they want shares from the EU while not sharing themselves.
Fuck 'em. Greedy bastards.

While i strongly oppose how Spain handled the referendum last weekend, i'm with them on this issue.
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  #28717  
Old 10-07-2017, 01:38 AM
Aneurysm Aneurysm is offline

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While i strongly oppose how Spain handled the referendum last weekend, i'm with them on this issue.
Basically this.

Nationalistic separatist movements on the rise throughout the world isn't a good thing. The world needs more unity right now, not less.
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  #28718  
Old 10-07-2017, 04:20 PM
Kellick Kellick is offline

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Basically this.

Nationalistic separatist movements on the rise throughout the world isn't a good thing. The world needs more unity right now, not less.
Ech. I'm with you to a point. Certainly, unity and harmony are preferable to disunity and chaos, but the idea that peoples have a right to self-determination is still one of the founding principles of Western civilization and international law. If there's enough traction in Catalonia that the idea seems appealing, then they ought to be allowed to have the discussion.

What we saw in Spain was just what happens when a country with a fairly wobbly grasp on democracy and an all-too recent history of fascism is confronted with a secessionist movement. Spain obviously wasn't going to recognize the referendum as legitimate, so why bother with such a violent pushback, which only serves to exacerbate tensions? Again, Franco wasn't that long ago.

For all Trickster gripes about the October Crisis and the invocation of the War Measures Act (by a Quebecois Prime Minister, at the behest of a Quebecois Premier and a Quebecois Mayor), Ottawa never resorted to confiscating ballot boxes and arresting voters. Nor did the UK when Scotland had its referendum on the question of its independence.

Let the discussion happen, and make your points peacefully, not with violence.
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  #28719  
Old 10-07-2017, 08:58 PM
Trickster Trickster is offline

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Why should Catalonia follow the constitution for their vote to leave the constitution when said constitution (which was meant to be temporary yet still is there) forbids such a vote? That is absolutely illogical.
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  #28720  
Old 10-07-2017, 10:10 PM
Kellick Kellick is offline

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Why should Catalonia follow the constitution for their vote to leave the constitution when said constitution (which was meant to be temporary yet still is there) forbids such a vote? That is absolutely illogical.
Who are you talking to?
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  #28721  
Old 10-10-2017, 02:01 PM
spidey1980 spidey1980 is offline

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So Catalonia has declared independence, immediately followed by a suspension of all effects of the declaration of independence.

Schrödinger would be proud.
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  #28722  
Old 10-10-2017, 02:52 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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So Catalonia has declared independence, immediately followed by a suspension of all effects of the declaration of independence.

Schrödinger would be proud.
The article I read said some businesses are relocating out of Barcelona and the region.

This is just a big mess from both players.
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  #28723  
Old 10-10-2017, 03:58 PM
spidey1980 spidey1980 is offline

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Yes, and this will continue to happen as long as a secession conflict is on the table.
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  #28724  
Old 10-10-2017, 04:50 PM
Shekinah Shekinah is offline

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Reading about all this makes me wonder what would happen if the South succeeded in separating from the United States. Obviously Lincoln would be remembered as the president who let it happen, but what other chaos would have happened?
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  #28725  
Old 10-10-2017, 04:57 PM
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Reading about all this makes me wonder what would happen if the South succeeded in separating from the United States. Obviously Lincoln would be remembered as the president who let it happen, but what other chaos would have happened?

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