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  #926  
Old 08-12-2017, 01:43 AM
Almed Almed is offline

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Ner'zhul was weakened there with the Forsaken breaking away.
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  #927  
Old 08-12-2017, 01:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Almed View Post
Ner'zhul was weakened there with the Forsaken breaking away.
The Forsaken are not Arthas. There's nothing indicating he regained his free will, especially with Ner'zhul telling him "obey!" over and over again. And even though Frostmourne's hold was weakening, it was still there.
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  #928  
Old 08-12-2017, 02:33 AM
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What made the Forsaken different then? Or even those Undead Arthas recruited as he fled Lordaeron?
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  #929  
Old 08-12-2017, 03:03 AM
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What made the Forsaken different then? Or even those Undead Arthas recruited as he fled Lordaeron?
Isn't that rather clear? For those undead who had managed to regain free will, it was whether they felt loyal to the Scourge or not. Sylvanas and her Forsaken clearly did not, but many could have. And many possibly had not regained their free will.
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  #930  
Old 08-12-2017, 03:14 AM
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So the Forsaken and those Undead Arthas recruited got their wills back but Arthas didn't?
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  #931  
Old 08-12-2017, 03:15 AM
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So the Forsaken and those Undead Arthas recruited got their wills back but Arthas didn't?
Yes? Well, partially for those undead Arthas recruited, probably.
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  #932  
Old 08-12-2017, 05:06 AM
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To clarify, I was sure that WC3 Arthas, by losing his soul, wasn't a puppet so much as lacking his inhibitions with his capacity for joy dimished but could otherwise still operate on his own. In TFT, he accepted his place in the Scourge by the time he sailed back to Northrend since he had finally been in the position to lead as he saw fit, not live up to expectations (and maybe he recognized he had nowhere else). No Uther or Terenas or Jaina doubting him or breathing down his neck, leaving free to be the warrior he was born to be.
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  #933  
Old 08-12-2017, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Almed View Post
To clarify, I was sure that WC3 Arthas, by losing his soul, wasn't a puppet so much as lacking his inhibitions with his capacity for joy dimished but could otherwise still operate on his own. In TFT, he accepted his place in the Scourge by the time he sailed back to Northrend since he had finally been in the position to lead as he saw fit, not live up to expectations (and maybe he recognized he had nowhere else). No Uther or Terenas or Jaina doubting him or breathing down his neck, leaving free to be the warrior he was born to be.
I do not think this interpretation is entirely correct. Frostmourne's only ability was not taking Arthas' soul away from him, it also made him a direct agent of Ner'zhul, with Arthas heeding his voice through the blade.

Quote:
You waste your breath Mal'Ganis. I heed only the voice of Frostmourne now.

You hear the voice of the Dark Lord. He whispers to you through the blade you wield...
Furthemore, we have clear evidence that Ner'zhul constantly whispered to Arthas in the cinematic where he kills his own father.

Now, that does not mean he was a puppet per se. As far as I am concerned, he was his own master, only his actions could not go against the aims and concerns of the Scourge and the Lich King. Plus, from time to time, a direct order.
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  #934  
Old 08-12-2017, 10:26 AM
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I think the right word to ostensively describe Arthas' condition would be that he was "bound": to the blade, through the blade to Ner'zhul's consciousness, and thus to the Scourge as a whole.
We may not know the specifics of magic employed and the exact "inner workings" of the Lich King's psychic link with his subjects, but we see the interactions.

And I would argue this is not about "joy" at all. As if he haven't had quite a few moments of it, however twisted it was.

Last edited by Thornedale; 08-12-2017 at 10:29 AM..
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  #935  
Old 08-12-2017, 10:41 AM
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Gotta agree with Thornedale here, plus, if it hasn't already been brought up, Ner'zhul probably prioritized who he tried to keep under control.

This is why most Forsaken are low level zombies, who probably weren't a priority, plus elves, who probably resisted him especially furiously or were harder to keep a leash on due to being more powerful personally (Ex: Sylvanas).

Meanwhile Nerubians were probably more of a priority even though they probably resisted pretty strongly. And were closer to him (Hence why Anub'arak didn't break free).

Arthas was probably a priority, had Frostmourne on him, and probably wasn't trying especially hard to break loose so probably just required a light touch to keep steered towards the Scourge's goals.
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  #936  
Old 08-12-2017, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thornedale View Post
I think the right word to ostensively describe Arthas' condition would be that he was "bound": to the blade, through the blade to Ner'zhul's consciousness, and thus to the Scourge as a whole.
We may not know the specifics of magic employed and the exact "inner workings" of the Lich King's psychic link with his subjects, but we see the interactions.

And I would argue this is not about "joy" at all. As if he haven't had quite a few moments of it, however twisted it was.
Just look at how he acts in TFT against ROC. He's more lively. He shows concern for his Undead subjects.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl
Meanwhile Nerubians were probably more of a priority even though they probably resisted pretty strongly. And were closer to him (Hence why Anub'arak didn't break free).
It was established in the Crypt Lord bio that they were living collaborators.
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  #937  
Old 08-13-2017, 02:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
Gotta agree with Thornedale here, plus, if it hasn't already been brought up, Ner'zhul probably prioritized who he tried to keep under control.

This is why most Forsaken are low level zombies, who probably weren't a priority, plus elves, who probably resisted him especially furiously or were harder to keep a leash on due to being more powerful personally (Ex: Sylvanas).

Meanwhile Nerubians were probably more of a priority even though they probably resisted pretty strongly. And were closer to him (Hence why Anub'arak didn't break free).

Arthas was probably a priority, had Frostmourne on him, and probably wasn't trying especially hard to break loose so probably just required a light touch to keep steered towards the Scourge's goals.
Nothing that hasn't been brought up already, but good points nevertheless.

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Just look at how he acts in TFT against ROC. He's more lively. He shows concern for his Undead subjects.
Sociopaths have this beautiful ability; they will make you believe they feel something they do not actually feel.
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  #938  
Old 08-13-2017, 10:58 AM
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But Frostmourne's curse was weakened.
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  #939  
Old 08-14-2017, 05:14 AM
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Quote:
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But Frostmourne's curse was weakened.
Not broken, however.
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  #940  
Old 08-14-2017, 11:01 AM
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No. But it getting weaker surely had to do with Arthas acting less dead before he got Frostmourne. Even when he would have had nothing to win by doing so (see him actually showing regard for Kel'thuzad as a friend and not just a lackey).
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  #941  
Old 08-14-2017, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Almed View Post
No. But it getting weaker surely had to do with Arthas acting less dead before he got Frostmourne. Even when he would have had nothing to win by doing so (see him actually showing regard for Kel'thuzad as a friend and not just a lackey).
The point is the curse was still there, binding Arthas to Ner'zhul.

Ultimately, all we have in this regard are our interpretations, as we can't say for sure, given how Warcraft III does not feature internal dialogue.
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  #942  
Old 08-24-2017, 08:38 PM
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After that thread about WC3's earlier versions, I ask if you've included cut or changed elements from the pre-release of any Warcraft work (like Ner'zhul having more Dreadlords than just Mal'Ganis loyal to him).
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  #943  
Old 08-24-2017, 11:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Almed View Post
After that thread about WC3's earlier versions, I ask if you've included cut or changed elements from the pre-release of any Warcraft work (like Ner'zhul having more Dreadlords than just Mal'Ganis loyal to him).
Not sure yet, but so far, I follow only the actual Warcraft III and my own conjectures.
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  #944  
Old 08-25-2017, 03:27 AM
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I need to ask: How will you handle the Garithos/Blood Elf/Dalaran situation? Namely:

1. What the Kirin Tor was doing (or if there was one).

2. Garithos' position in the Alliance and how he can apparently order around a ruler of a kingdom.

3. Garithos' background for his policy towards non-humans.

4. How much hostility there was towards the High Elves for Garithos' troops to apparently support killing the pointy ears.

5. Were the Blood Mages the High Elf version of Warlocks and were Blood Elves by large snorting demon crack?

Last edited by Almed; 08-25-2017 at 03:40 AM..
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  #945  
Old 08-27-2017, 03:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Almed View Post
I need to ask: How will you handle the Garithos/Blood Elf/Dalaran situation? Namely:

1. What the Kirin Tor was doing (or if there was one).

2. Garithos' position in the Alliance and how he can apparently order around a ruler of a kingdom.

3. Garithos' background for his policy towards non-humans.

4. How much hostility there was towards the High Elves for Garithos' troops to apparently support killing the pointy ears.

5. Were the Blood Mages the High Elf version of Warlocks and were Blood Elves by large snorting demon crack?
1. I think that I already answered that question in the past. The Kirin Tor was fragmented, the largest one centered around Jaina. Some of the mages remained in Lordaeron, but to say the organization was left any way intact would be a gross exaggeration.

2. My current take (based of off some implications made by Blizzard over the years) is that Garithos was a self-declared Grand Marshal of the Alliance forces in Lordaeron, something these few remaining forces accepted as there was really no other alternative (the whole Alliance command in Lordaeron gone or killed). The powers outside Lordaeron did not contest this, first because they did not have means to, second because they had no alternative to offer anyway.

As Kael being his subordinate, well, it's likely because these humans still outnumbered his blood elves by far, and he needed them to survive (having no other alternative).

3. I think this is explained pretty well with the destruction of Blackwood and the high elves' actions during and after the Second War.

4. Let's look at this this way; a fall of the society always brings the worst out of its people, and these people had to endure a literal zombie apocalypse. Furthermore, it is very likely that Garithos surrounded himself with those who would parrot his opinions, shunning those who wouldn't.

5. Not warlocks, although an extensive use of Arcane manipulation and fire magics, due to their dominant and destructive nature, is already a half way there.

As for fel crack, well, yes on Outland.
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  #946  
Old 08-27-2017, 04:35 AM
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Blackwood's destruction and elvish duplicity might account for elves, but it doesn't for Dwarves.
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  #947  
Old 08-27-2017, 04:58 AM
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Quote:
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Blackwood's destruction and elvish duplicity might account for elves, but it doesn't for Dwarves.
I do not remember Garithos wanting to execute all the dwarves in his army. He acted very condescendingly towards them, but that is a given for someone as clearly arrogant as he was.
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  #948  
Old 09-11-2017, 06:47 AM
Imic Imic is offline

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Are yoipu going to do anything on some of the kingdoms other than Azertoth and Gilneas? I mean places such as Stromgarde, Alterac, or Kul tiras. I know that Gilneas and Azeroth have species in World of Warcraft, but I'd love to see the lore of the other kingdoms.
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  #949  
Old 09-11-2017, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Imic View Post
Are yoipu going to do anything on some of the kingdoms other than Azertoth and Gilneas? I mean places such as Stromgarde, Alterac, or Kul tiras. I know that Gilneas and Azeroth have species in World of Warcraft, but I'd love to see the lore of the other kingdoms.
This is the table of contents for the Encyclopedia of Alahdor (the East). At the moment, most of it is written, I am just waiting for the new rendition of the maps, plus I need to find someone well-versed in English to edit the whole thing. It does not help that I have been very light on free time the last half year, and had absolutely none the last three months.

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  #950  
Old 09-11-2017, 07:46 PM
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I could help you edit it.
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