Scrolls of Lore Forums  

Go Back   Scrolls of Lore Forums > Scrolls of Lore > Halls of Lordaeron

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #55901  
Old 08-12-2017, 01:17 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

World Builder
Mutterscrawl's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 31,392

Default

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-...811-story.html

And even after this people will still say there's not a racism problem in America.
__________________
Brought to you by Sanguine Enterprises.

My Worldbuilding:
http://bloodinkworlds.tumblr.com/
Reply With Quote
  #55902  
Old 08-12-2017, 01:23 PM
Tilgath Tilgath is online now

Eternal
Tilgath's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,602

Default

Seeing as this was billed as a giant alt-right meetup, I can't imagine they survive as a movement going forward. Having a literal terrorist murder and maim in your name kind of looks bad.
Reply With Quote
  #55903  
Old 08-12-2017, 01:34 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

World Builder
Mutterscrawl's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 31,392

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tilgath View Post
Having a literal terrorist murder and maim in your name kind of looks bad.
Wait did someone get physically hurt? The article I read was just that they'd had a big meetup carrying torches and chanting, did they actually start trying to kill people?
__________________
Brought to you by Sanguine Enterprises.

My Worldbuilding:
http://bloodinkworlds.tumblr.com/
Reply With Quote
  #55904  
Old 08-12-2017, 01:42 PM
Tilgath Tilgath is online now

Eternal
Tilgath's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,602

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
Wait did someone get physically hurt? The article I read was just that they'd had a big meetup carrying torches and chanting, did they actually start trying to kill people?
Last night was just a small side gathering. Today was the big event. Before it even got started though violence broke out between the alt-right guys and the counter-protestors. The police declared it an unlawful assembly and shut things down. A couple hours later the counter-protestors were marching through the town when a car sped up down the street and plowed into them, ISIS-style.

So far one is dead and 19 are injured.
Reply With Quote
  #55905  
Old 08-12-2017, 01:55 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

World Builder
Mutterscrawl's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 31,392

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tilgath View Post
Last night was just a small side gathering. Today was the big event. Before it even got started though violence broke out between the alt-right guys and the counter-protestors. The police declared it an unlawful assembly and shut things down. A couple hours later the counter-protestors were marching through the town when a car sped up down the street and plowed into them, ISIS-style.

So far one is dead and 19 are injured.
Goddamnit.
__________________
Brought to you by Sanguine Enterprises.

My Worldbuilding:
http://bloodinkworlds.tumblr.com/
Reply With Quote
  #55906  
Old 08-12-2017, 02:57 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

Elune
Ruinshin's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Hawaii
Posts: 20,644

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tilgath View Post
Seeing as this was billed as a giant alt-right meetup, I can't imagine they survive as a movement going forward. Having a literal terrorist murder and maim in your name kind of looks bad.
Antifa was literally throwing explosives into crowds during berkley, and their still around.

This wont be any different.


Quote:
And even after this people will still say there's not a racism problem in America.
How many showed up?

Now whats the population of the United States.

And thats why Racism isnt a problem im the Uniyed States. You'll always have outliers
__________________
“Born to be a king, I ask one thing in return: a front seat to watch Earth burn."
Reply With Quote
  #55907  
Old 08-12-2017, 03:02 PM
Taintedmage Taintedmage is offline

Eternal
Taintedmage's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,727

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tilgath View Post
Last night was just a small side gathering. Today was the big event. Before it even got started though violence broke out between the alt-right guys and the counter-protestors. The police declared it an unlawful assembly and shut things down. A couple hours later the counter-protestors were marching through the town when a car sped up down the street and plowed into them, ISIS-style.

So far one is dead and 19 are injured.
There's some saying it might not actually be deliberate, could be a freak out.

As per the usual for terror accusations, wait until the police report.
This might be the car btw.
Reply With Quote
  #55908  
Old 08-12-2017, 04:31 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

Elune
Ruinshin's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Hawaii
Posts: 20,644

Default

Hmm..

Think we'll clear 2017 as the breaking point? I think anything after two more big button protests will push us past the point of no return, unless they take radically differet tones.

I was thinking current patterns would hold until after next years elections, but the youtube and twitter and google censorship has peoples blood hot on the right, and the lefts still on their liberal nazi kick.
__________________
“Born to be a king, I ask one thing in return: a front seat to watch Earth burn."
Reply With Quote
  #55909  
Old 08-12-2017, 05:01 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

Elune
HlaaluStyle's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Tradegate, the Outlands
Posts: 12,385
BattleTag: DAllicant#1203

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruinshin View Post
Hmm..

Think we'll clear 2017 as the breaking point? I think anything after two more big button protests will push us past the point of no return, unless they take radically differet tones.

I was thinking current patterns would hold until after next years elections, but the youtube and twitter and google censorship has peoples blood hot on the right, and the lefts still on their liberal nazi kick.
Nazism is a significant enough part of the alt-right that it's not at all unreasonable to consider them fellow travelers, at the very least. Which doesn't mean they deserve violence for espousing their ideas, but let's call them what they are.

For their part, the Antifa are violent thugs who enjoy breaking things. But plenty of the alt-right Nazis are looking for an excuse, so they serve each other quite well.If anyone here aligns with those dumbasses? You're part of the problem. Every window you break, every face you smash—that's another bit of sympathy that goes toward the Nazis. You help what you claim to hate with your actions.

But I think what I hate the most about the alt-right (and yes, anyone here who sympathizes with them, this applies to you) is their hypocrisy. They complain about safe spaces, but then demand their own. They mock the idea of being triggered, but get as whiny as the most stereotypical social justice warrior when they see something they don't like. They rely on the safety established by hard-working police officers and soldiers (who may not be white) in order to espouse their rhetoric. They cling to the rule of law, but seek a society where none exists.

The Nazis of the alt-right consist of cowards. They are traitors in spirit, if not (yet) in deed.



Remember who protects you. Remember who bleeds for your right to scream hatred. And feel ashamed.
__________________
See WoW in a way you've never imagined it.

"He came to Ahn'qiraj for the strife... instead, he found a wife! She's my qiraji love-bride, next on Sick Sad World of Warcraft!"

Last edited by HlaaluStyle; 08-12-2017 at 05:12 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #55910  
Old 08-12-2017, 05:02 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

World Builder
Mutterscrawl's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 31,392

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruinshin View Post

How many showed up?

Now whats the population of the United States.

And thats why Racism isnt a problem im the Uniyed States. You'll always have outliers
^Literally proving my point. There can be neo-nazis and KKK members holding torches and chanting and people won't acknowledge there's anything wrong, it's always an 'outlier'.
__________________
Brought to you by Sanguine Enterprises.

My Worldbuilding:
http://bloodinkworlds.tumblr.com/
Reply With Quote
  #55911  
Old 08-12-2017, 05:09 PM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

Not Sure If Trolling...
Slowpokeking's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 8,703

Default

The Dark Side is rising high this weekend.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #55912  
Old 08-12-2017, 05:45 PM
Taintedmage Taintedmage is offline

Eternal
Taintedmage's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,727

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HlaaluStyle
They rely on the safety established by hard-working police officers and soldiers (who may not be white) in order to espouse their rhetoric. They cling to the rule of law, but seek a society where none exists.

The Nazis of the alt-right consist of cowards. They are traitors in spirit, if not (yet) in deed.

Remember who protects you. Remember who bleeds for your right to scream hatred. And feel ashamed.
Don't have much complaint about what you said mate, except for this.
If anything the recent events have proven the Libertarian element in the alt-right to be correct. When given orders the police will not do their job and instead be ordered to stand down, just as they were at the Berkeley Free Speech event.
In the case of Berkeley there were some rumblings that the mayor was an ally of By Any Mean Necessary and so let Antifa go at it.

What happened in Charlottesville was that the mayor didn't want them to have their rally at the statue but then the http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...le-over-movin/ACLU defended the Alt-right [/URL]and their right to protest.

Needless to say, this was eventually revoked and it was deemed an illegal assembly and a state of emergency was enacted. Some are saying the police didn't do their job to maintain the peace.

What it does prove is that the alt-right cannot rely on the police or mayors to defend them. No, what matters is private property and security. The only way going forward to make these events less rowdy is to have it on private property with their own security forces. Just as Spencer had his idiotic little "Hail Trump Hail Victory" speech at a private event it's pretty clear that for it to be safe that will be the option going forward.
Reply With Quote
  #55913  
Old 08-12-2017, 06:02 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

Elune
HlaaluStyle's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Tradegate, the Outlands
Posts: 12,385
BattleTag: DAllicant#1203

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taintedmage View Post
Don't have much complaint about what you said mate, except for this.
If anything the recent events have proven the Libertarian element in the alt-right to be correct. When given orders the police will not do their job and instead be ordered to stand down, just as they were at the Berkeley Free Speech event.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGGGUhjoLpM
In the case of Berkeley there were some rumblings that the mayor was an ally of By Any Mean Necessary and so let Antifa go at it.

What happened in Charlottesville was that the mayor didn't want them to have their rally at the statue but then the http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...le-over-movin/ACLU defended the Alt-right [/URL]and their right to protest.

Needless to say, this was eventually revoked and it was deemed an illegal assembly and a state of emergency was enacted. Some are saying the police didn't do their job to maintain the peace.

What it does prove is that the alt-right cannot rely on the police or mayors to defend them. No, what matters is private property and security. The only way going forward to make these events less rowdy is to have it on private property with their own security forces. Just as Spencer had his idiotic little "Hail Trump Hail Victory" speech at a private event it's pretty clear that for it to be safe that will be the option going forward.
Interesting points, thanks. I can see that happening in Berkeley, simply due to how radicalized the city is. I'm skeptical about Charlotte being the same, but I'll keep an open mind until I hear more from reliable (police) sources.

But my larger point still stands. The alt-right still depends on a free society which they seek to sabotage.
__________________
See WoW in a way you've never imagined it.

"He came to Ahn'qiraj for the strife... instead, he found a wife! She's my qiraji love-bride, next on Sick Sad World of Warcraft!"

Last edited by HlaaluStyle; 08-12-2017 at 06:18 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #55914  
Old 08-12-2017, 06:13 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

Elune
Kakwakas's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: US
Posts: 7,307

Darkmoon Card: Elementals

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
^Literally proving my point. There can be neo-nazis and KKK members holding torches and chanting and people won't acknowledge there's anything wrong, it's always an 'outlier'.
Meanwhile, every random tumblr post and anarchist trashcan-tipping is representative of everyone to the left of the Republican party.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #55915  
Old 08-12-2017, 07:27 PM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

Not Sure If Trolling...
Slowpokeking's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 8,703

Default

Seriously, it's a real disgrace to the US. They even carried Nazi flags.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #55916  
Old 08-12-2017, 07:41 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

Elune
Kakwakas's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: US
Posts: 7,307

Darkmoon Card: Elementals

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
Seriously, it's a real disgrace to the US. They even carried Nazi flags.
They're just showing their pride in their heritage of the proud Southern group the KKK who carried the same flag. Heritage not hate!
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #55917  
Old 08-12-2017, 09:55 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

Elune
PajamaSalad's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Undisclosed location in the Universe.
Posts: 41,857

Default

Is the alt-right supposed to be nazis and white supremacists?
Reply With Quote
  #55918  
Old 08-12-2017, 10:54 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

World Builder
Mutterscrawl's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 31,392

Default




Quote:
Attorneys for Islamberg said Doggart was not charged with terrorism because the federal government doesn’t have a “catch-all” law punishing domestic terrorists, the Chattanooga Times Free Press reported. The attorneys said prosecutors used non-terrorism charges for Doggart’s case because current statutes are largely aimed at foreign radical groups.

Doggart, of Signal Mountain, ran for Congress in 2014 in Tennessee and finished with 6% of the vote.


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...gart-convicted

These laws need to be updated to reflect domestic terrorism as a very real threat.
__________________
Brought to you by Sanguine Enterprises.

My Worldbuilding:
http://bloodinkworlds.tumblr.com/
Reply With Quote
  #55919  
Old 08-12-2017, 11:15 PM
Cantus Cantus is offline

Ethermancer - Admin
Cantus's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: DC, U.S.
Posts: 11,000
BattleTag: Cantus#1700

Default

So the name of the driver's been released, he was there to march with the alt-right ralliers, and he has been charged as the state feels is fit.

I'm going to say this once before shit inevitably gets heated. Let the legal system do its job, do not promote vigilantism against either side, and most importantly, when talking about the rally events, do not spread random rumors as facts from here on in. If something is unsourced or sourced from /pol/mother jones opinion posts/articles, it's either directly stated as adulterated speculation or it doesn't belong here at all.

We're not here to tear each other limb from limb, so we're going to avoid behavior that encourages that eventuality.

If anyone disagrees with this mandate, then they can kindly refrain from posting anything on this specific topic.
__________________

Rationalizing the irrational since 2005.
Reply With Quote
  #55920  
Old 08-12-2017, 11:38 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

Elune
PajamaSalad's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Undisclosed location in the Universe.
Posts: 41,857

Default

There is hardly more than one side here and this guy isn't on any one that has ever been here. No one will make jokes about his murder or attempted murders.
Reply With Quote
  #55921  
Old 08-13-2017, 12:04 AM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

Elune
HlaaluStyle's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Tradegate, the Outlands
Posts: 12,385
BattleTag: DAllicant#1203

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
Is the alt-right supposed to be nazis and white supremacists?
They are, at best, fellow travelers. The alt-right includes many neo-Nazis within their ranks, and they've done nothing to distance themselves. Richard Spencer, who has called for "peaceful" ethnic cleansing, identifies as such, and I haven't seen too many in this group reject him.

A lot of these people want me, members of my family, and many of my friends dead or out of the country. They have the absolute right to make their views heard, but I will not and will never coddle them by pretending they are anything other than the white supremacists they are.

You'll find some non-whites in the group. And some non-racists (some of the libertarians that TaintedMage mentioned). They're the useful idiots, much like college protestors who sympathize with communists.

And before anyone jumps on me for casting too wide a brush, know that I am not referring to Republicans or Trump voters. I know some Republicans/Trump voters, and they would be disgusted by the racists in Charlottesville. They're decent people.

The Nazis in Charlottesville are not.

For the record, I think that monuments to Confederate figures should be decided by local plebiscites. I frankly don't really care if people in the South want to have statues to Jefferson Davis. I'm not a southerner, so it's not really my business.

As far as I can tell, the decision to remove the statue was done by the city council. Like I said, I would prefer a plebiscite, though I don't know much about municipal governance in Charlottesville; maybe a plebiscite would be impractical or too expensive. Regardless, those defending the statue on historical grounds need to do more to push away the neo-Nazis. If they fail to do so, I cannot really feel much sympathy for them. Accepting help from white supremacists is making a deal with the devil.
__________________
See WoW in a way you've never imagined it.

"He came to Ahn'qiraj for the strife... instead, he found a wife! She's my qiraji love-bride, next on Sick Sad World of Warcraft!"

Last edited by HlaaluStyle; 08-13-2017 at 12:24 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #55922  
Old 08-13-2017, 12:06 AM
Cantus Cantus is offline

Ethermancer - Admin
Cantus's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: DC, U.S.
Posts: 11,000
BattleTag: Cantus#1700

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
There is hardly more than one side here and this guy isn't on any one that has ever been here. No one will make jokes about his murder or attempted murders.
Don't take my words out of context. The two sides are conservative and liberal, not pro or anti-murder. Neither side is pro-murder as far as I'm aware, but people tend to get accusation happy in charged environments. So...we're nipping that issue in the bud. No accusations without verifiable proof from good sources. Breitbart is not a good source. Shareblue is not a good source. Opinion articles are not good sources unless they link directly to good sources like AP and Reuters, or similarly trustworthy newswires and services. Accusations on other topics will come as they may and handled on a case by case basis, but on this topic and the issue of the rally in general, this is how it's being handled.

Do I make myself clear?
__________________

Rationalizing the irrational since 2005.
Reply With Quote
  #55923  
Old 08-13-2017, 12:33 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

Elune
PajamaSalad's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Undisclosed location in the Universe.
Posts: 41,857

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HlaaluStyle View Post
They are, at best, fellow travelers. The alt-right includes many neo-Nazis within their ranks, and they've done nothing to distance themselves. Richard Spencer, who has called for "peaceful" ethnic cleansing, identifies as such, and I haven't seen too many in this group reject him.

A lot of these people want me, members of my family, and many of my friends dead or out of the country. They have the absolute right to make their views heard, but I will not and will never coddle them by pretending they are anything other than the white supremacists they are.

You'll find some non-whites in the group. And some non-racists (some of the libertarians that TaintedMage mentioned). They're the useful idiots, much like college protestors who sympathize with communists.

And before anyone jumps on me for casting too wide a brush, know that I am not referring to Republicans or Trump voters. I know some Trump voters, and they would be disgusted by the racists in Charlottesville. They're decent people.

The Nazis in Charlottesville are not.
When I Google alt-right and get the Urban dictionary definition it seems like a disputed buzz word. The top definitions are people mocking the term as a liberal boogieman. It seems like a really loose term.

I don't feel like they are on anyone's side here. I don't like the attempt to politicize them and conflate them with Republicans or even Trump. I feel just as threatened by antifa because they would despise someone like me and they have several instances of mob vandalism and violence where the police stepped aside.

It is pretty awful that a lot of citizens feel like they have to be violent. Even if I don't like Trump I think you have to put faith in our constitutional framework because preventing violence or other extra-constitutional methods of transferring power will upend the system that has kept us stable for so long. Respect the ballot so you don't have to respect the bullet.
Reply With Quote
  #55924  
Old 08-13-2017, 12:34 AM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

Elune
Ruinshin's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Hawaii
Posts: 20,644

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
^Literally proving my point. There can be neo-nazis and KKK members holding torches and chanting and people won't acknowledge there's anything wrong, it's always an 'outlier'.
Those people are jackasses. It doesnt speak of America anymore than the Antifa professor who was hitting people over the head with a bikelock speaks of America.

They get called outliers because they are. That does not mean their views are not problematic. Its also not evidence of a systemic or dangerous threat in the soul of America.

Quote:
But I think what I hate the most about the alt-right (and yes, anyone here who sympathizes with them, this applies to you) is their hypocrisy. They complain about safe spaces, but then demand their own. They mock the idea of being triggered, but get as whiny as the most stereotypical social justice warrior when they see something they don't like.
Sure, and thats pretty silly. Its one of the things that makes the donald so hypocritical. The "alt right" (and I use air quotes because I still disagree with it being a singular thing as much as different groups on the same loose side) can be little better than SJW reflections.

And yes, its an area ripe for white supremacists and neo nazis to exploit, and I ecpect it to bite them in the arse
__________________
“Born to be a king, I ask one thing in return: a front seat to watch Earth burn."

Last edited by Ruinshin; 08-13-2017 at 12:38 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #55925  
Old 08-13-2017, 12:42 AM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

Elune
HlaaluStyle's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Tradegate, the Outlands
Posts: 12,385
BattleTag: DAllicant#1203

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
When I Google alt-right and get the Urban dictionary definition it seems like a disputed buzz word. The top definitions are people mocking the term as a liberal boogieman. It seems like a really loose term.

I don't feel like they are on anyone's side here. I don't like the attempt to politicize them and conflate them with Republicans or even Trump. I feel just as threatened by antifa because they would despise someone like me and they have several instances of mob vandalism and violence where the police stepped aside.

It is pretty awful that a lot of citizens feel like they have to be violent. Even if I don't like Trump I think you have to put faith in our constitutional framework because preventing violence or other extra-constitutional methods of transferring power will upend the system that has kept us stable for so long. Respect the ballot so you don't have to respect the bullet.
We're on the same side, then.

UrbanDictionary is mostly there for the humor. The alt-right is loosely defined, but when they fail to expel or distance themselves from people like Spencer, I feel pretty comfortable tarring them as racists.

Like I said, the Trump voters I know would not support the racists at Charlottesville. I don't think most Trump voters would. And I'm no fan of the Antifa, since they only make the problem worse. All Americans have freedom of speech, so I won't support any effort to prohibit the alt-right from speaking. But they accept help from racists, and they deserve to be called out on that.

I don't much like Trump, but he won legitimately, and I will respect that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruinshin View Post
Those people are jackasses. It doesnt speak of America anymore than the Antifa professor who was hitting people over the head with a bikelock speaks of America.

They get called outliers because they are. That does not mean their views are not problematic. Its also not evidence of a systemic or dangerous threat in the soul of America.



Sure, and thats pretty silly. Its one of the things that makes the donald so hypocritical. The "alt right" (and I use air quotes because I still disagree with it being a singular thing as much as different groups on the same loose side) can be little better than SJW reflections.

And yes, its an area ripe for white supremacists and neo nazis to exploit, and I ecpect it to bite them in the arse
Yeah. It's unsettling for me, since I never really expected to see such a large number of racists marching openly in America. But ultimately, they aren't really that well-liked.

The alt-right does have different groups, but like I said, if someone lets Nazis (or communists) in, I'm going to consider them fellow travelers. You let one psycho in, and they'll keep on coming.
__________________
See WoW in a way you've never imagined it.

"He came to Ahn'qiraj for the strife... instead, he found a wife! She's my qiraji love-bride, next on Sick Sad World of Warcraft!"

Last edited by HlaaluStyle; 08-13-2017 at 12:51 AM..
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
politics, serious business, sylvanas for president

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:00 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.