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Old 09-04-2015, 11:20 PM
Galdus Galdus is offline

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Default Here's a thought: Could the Scourge have worked as a player faction?

Or at least as an option for players to get quests from? Let's go back to when WoW was being developed.

You can tell that the Forsaken have ended up as a playable version of the Scourge for WoW's Alliance VS Horde faction system. Every other faction in Reign of Chaos was put into WoW Vanilla.

Well, could the Scourge worked as a player faction or permanent source for quests? Let's assume WoW would be factionless or have the player factions be different. Let's also assume elements of the Forsaken would be used for the Scourge.

Last edited by Galdus; 09-04-2015 at 11:23 PM..
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Old 09-04-2015, 11:23 PM
Omacron Omacron is offline


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What would the races be? Bear in mind that you'd still be limited to groups with two arms and two legs. What, you'd have ghouls and skellingtons and zombies? You couldn't very well have playable nerubians, gargoyles or obsidian destroyers.
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Old 09-04-2015, 11:39 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
What would the races be? Bear in mind that you'd still be limited to groups with two arms and two legs. What, you'd have ghouls and skellingtons and zombies? You couldn't very well have playable nerubians, gargoyles or obsidian destroyers.
If they were bold enough to give us brand new races as player races, the following could work. Vrykul (preferably the Frost ones to differentiate them more from humans and to better fit thematics). Ice Trolls (betrayers of Zul'Drak, altered by the plague). Classic Undead. And Lichforms (basically the lesser form of Liches, similar to Skeletal Mages, but with neat details similar to those Liches have).

Also, if we got more Warcraft 3-esque MMO, with more hard factions (or best with no hard factions at all), I think we could have different class/race system that would allow races like Naga or Nerubians. Something akin to what Crowfall is doing with its Archetype system, where Archetype is a combination of race and "class" (they already have non-bipedal Archetype there, Centaur Legionnaire).
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Old 09-05-2015, 12:25 AM
Erthad Erthad is offline

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Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
What would the races be? Bear in mind that you'd still be limited to groups with two arms and two legs. What, you'd have ghouls and skellingtons and zombies? You couldn't very well have playable nerubians, gargoyles or obsidian destroyers.
Forsaken styled UD.
An incorporeal, banshee-like, elf ghost race.
Spooky skeletons, maybe even Lichified?
Worgen.
Nathrezim could have been scaled down.
Ice Troll Mummys.
Vrykul.

There are a lot of possibilities.
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Old 09-05-2015, 05:05 AM
Drusus Drusus is offline

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Well it would completely change the way we interact with the world. There would be far, far, fewer neutral quests and I imagine much more of an emphasis on Faction vs Faction. That, or they would start giving more 'humanity' and 'conciousness' to certain undead (or at least the PCs) to allow them to interact with the world in a way that isn't quite KILL, MAIM, BURN IT ALL!

The big issue would be classes of course. The more 'mundane' classes (Warrior, Rogue, Hunter) would work fine. But Priest would need to be heavily remodelled, Death Knight would presumably be introduced far earlier and the Scourge exclusive counter to the Paladin and Shaman. Warlock I imagine would become a Necromancer for all three factions.
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Old 09-05-2015, 10:45 AM
Galdus Galdus is offline

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Don't forget human members of the Scourge (See Cult of the Damned).

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Nathrezim could have been scaled down.
That reminds me of how back on the old WC3 page it was said that Ner'zhul got the Dreadlords under his thumb using the plague.

Last edited by Galdus; 09-05-2015 at 10:50 AM..
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Old 09-05-2015, 10:51 AM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
Also, if we got more Warcraft 3-esque MMO, with more hard factions (or best with no hard factions at all), I think we could have different class/race system that would allow races like Naga or Nerubians. Something akin to what Crowfall is doing with its Archetype system, where Archetype is a combination of race and "class" (they already have non-bipedal Archetype there, Centaur Legionnaire).
The issue with not allowing naga or nerubians isn't because of race/class, but because of equipment aesthetics and mounts.

Nerubians would look ridiculous on a horse, and people will complain that they can't use their mounts if you just gave them running wild instead of mounts.

Not to mention the trouble of having to modify equipment to fit the new races. It's one thing to change boots to not-quite-boots for the draenei/tauren/trolls, it's another thing to make them fit the six legs of a nerubian or to fit the naga tail.
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Old 09-05-2015, 11:18 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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I think I'd have preferred Illidari as a villain protagonist faction, you could draw more possibilities from that since there are an assortment of powerhungry races that could join them.
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Old 09-05-2015, 11:26 AM
Omacron Omacron is offline


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I think I'd have preferred Illidari as a villain protagonist faction, you could draw more possibilities from that since there are an assortment of powerhungry races that could join them.
Looking back on things, I think they really were being set up as a potential third faction. WoW's development was going on full swing by TFT and, moreover, I think the decision to have WoW have factions was decided by then; in fact, I think the founding of durotar mini-campaign was written to explain why the Alliance and Horde might NOT be at peace after the events of hyjal to justify that decision in WoW.


The Illidari had multiple races to chose from, just like the alliance and horde. You got your broken draenei, blood elves and naga most prominently, but you could've also had some of magtheridon's fel orcs (who, admittedly, I don't think we knew were integrated into the illidari by the end of TFT) and some of Illidan's satyrs (who, I don't think, were established explicitly as demons yet, "just" demonically corrupted night elves; the fel orc equivalent for night elves, essentially)
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Old 09-05-2015, 11:45 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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The scourge as a player faction has the issue that you can't really have neutral content, like you can with the Horde and Alliance (or with the Pact of Mount Hyjal and the Illidari). You could maybe have some team-ups against the Legion, but stuff like the Timbermaw, the Cenarion Circle or Booty Bay could never exist.
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Old 09-05-2015, 11:49 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
The scourge as a player faction has the issue that you can't really have neutral content, like you can with the Horde and Alliance (or with the Pact of Mount Hyjal and the Illidari). You could maybe have some team-ups against the Legion, but stuff like the Timbermaw, the Cenarion Circle or Booty Bay could never exist.
Not if the post TFT Scourge was written differently.
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Old 09-05-2015, 11:57 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Not if the post TFT Scourge was written differently.
True, though the degree to which such rewrites would be neccesitated essentially invalidates the idea of playing 'as the scourge' (just like WoW allows you to play as a faction called the horde, but doesn't allow you to play as the horde from Warcraft II). Plus, they'd probably need a new name.
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Old 09-05-2015, 12:15 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
True, though the degree to which such rewrites would be neccesitated essentially invalidates the idea of playing 'as the scourge' (just like WoW allows you to play as a faction called the horde, but doesn't allow you to play as the horde from Warcraft II). Plus, they'd probably need a new name.
It wouldn't have to be such a sort of rewrite. All they would have to do is to reveal Ner'zhul's post Hyjal/gaining of new body (Arthas being dominant came only with WotLK) intentions to be to actually fight the Legion and create sort of dark undead paradise with the Scourge (this is something many were actually theorizing about back when ROC/TFT came out). And the Scourge could keep its name, although now it wouldn't be derived from "scouring of the human nations from the face of Azeroth" but from "scouring of the Legion from the universe". It would still be a dark faction, faction that would prefer turning living into undead if possible, but with Ner'zhul being pragmatic, they would not rush into unnecessary conflict. And other factions, apart from the likes of Scarlet Crusade, wouldn't attack them either, since why would they provoke the snake with a bare foot?
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Old 09-05-2015, 12:43 PM
Lon-ami Lon-ami is offline

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There were ideas for Illidari some time ago, and they were pretty good:

* Blood elves
* Naga
* Broken draenei
* Fel orcs

As for the Scourge, something like this maybe:

* Alternate undead (Different from the Forsaken, with more bones or different skin colors, maybe with skull faces instead of zombie faces)
* Elf ghosts (Would work kinda like playable ethereals)
* Frost trolls (Alive, they're bulkier than jungle trolls so no problem there)
* No idea for the 4th one. Nerubian humanoids? Drakonid working against mortals under Malygos' orders? Somewhat human-distinctive Vrykul? Iron constructs? Vampire-bat-humanoids or humanoid gargoyles? Demons working for Ner'zhul?

If we're making a Scourge faction, ideally there should be no playable Forsaken, or Forsaken as its own faction instead of the Scourge. Give the Horde goblins and leave forsaken out.

Maybe make night elves its own faction as well, with furbolgs, treants, and ?. Give the Alliance high elves and call it a day.

Also, Horde has shamans, and Alliance has paladins. Illidari would have demon hunters, and Scourge death knights. Each faction would have its own special class.

Way too many races to work properly anyway, but it would be possible.

Edit: They could be expanded with worgen, ogres, murlocs, and ? eventually too.
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Old 09-05-2015, 01:04 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
The scourge as a player faction has the issue that you can't really have neutral content, like you can with the Horde and Alliance (or with the Pact of Mount Hyjal and the Illidari). You could maybe have some team-ups against the Legion, but stuff like the Timbermaw, the Cenarion Circle or Booty Bay could never exist.
Weren't there goblins that helped Arthas slaughter his way to the Sunwell?
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3) You can't leave the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustrum View Post
Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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Old 09-05-2015, 08:58 PM
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Weren't there goblins that helped Arthas slaughter his way to the Sunwell?
Yeah...it's hard to say if that's meant to be canon, or just a gameplay concession to accommodate the pre-TFT lack of vehicle transport for the playable armies.

The Scourge's mechanics in general were pretty divergent from how they were actually supposed to work in the story, like its use of gold and lumber to "pay" for new soldiers, while those undead actually raised from slain enemies in battle were only temporary skeletons. Or the way it could just "make" a crypt any old place and have it full of human bodies to make ghouls. Or crypt fiends and gargoyles coming from those same human crypts despite actually having come from Northrend with Arthas when he returned.

Even during WC3 itself the story had the Scourge's manner of building its host and overrunning Lordaeron, Dalaran and Quel'thalas working differently from how the playable interface was made to portray it.
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Old 09-05-2015, 09:18 PM
Galdus Galdus is offline

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RoC's manual does say the Scourge uses lumber harvested by Ghouls for making weapons and armor.

Last edited by Galdus; 09-05-2015 at 09:21 PM..
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Old 09-05-2015, 09:32 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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I'm open to three factions, but it might still make it a real hassle to write for and maintain zone balance, as well as potential future race ideas that would give the factions more diversity... it's kind why I'm a bit more fond of Jeffrey's two-faction idea over other possibilities.

And the Illidari would make for a much more convincing dark/evil faction that's honest about its villainy, unlike the Horde because it heavily contradicts their WC3 heel-face turn.
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Old 09-05-2015, 11:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Galdus View Post
RoC's manual does say the Scourge uses lumber harvested by Ghouls for making weapons and armor.
Yet of the units produced using lumber, only abominations and meat wagons really used weapons and/or armor. Banshees, crypt fiends, gargoyles and frost wyrms in particular were functionally unequipped, using their inherent abilities rather than constructed implements to attack and to defend themselves.

Moreover the type of soldier in-game that would make heavy use of manufactured weapons and armor - raised skeletons - cost nothing but mana and corpses to create.

Just overall the tech tree mechanics of the Scourge in WC3 come across as a long list of gameplay concessions that don't really translate to how it actually functioned in the lore, including the story that was taking place during WC3 itself.
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Old 09-06-2015, 06:44 AM
SomeRandomEvilGuy SomeRandomEvilGuy is offline

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Weren't there goblins that helped Arthas slaughter his way to the Sunwell?
Could justify it has threatening them or just killing them and reanimating them to serve the Scourge. Or as a gameplay concession as said.
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Old 09-07-2015, 12:55 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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For a time after WotLK was announced I was somewhat certain/hoping that Scourge would indeed be a new playable faction (I mostly concluded this from what appeared to be screenshots of a Scourge town and an undead warlock within it). Ah, how oblivious I was of Blizzard's laziness back then

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Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
What would the races be? Bear in mind that you'd still be limited to groups with two arms and two legs. What, you'd have ghouls and skellingtons and zombies? You couldn't very well have playable nerubians, gargoyles or obsidian destroyers.
Many races have already been suggested, but also totally new races (like vrykul at the time) and types of undead could be introduced. While banshees have been suggested, I'd go for a more exotic and refined ghost race (so it could have more customization options and perhaps be more loyal to the Scourge than a bunch of semi-enslaved spirits).

But ultimately, the issue as pointed out by others is that the faction would not fit the "do-gooders go out and fight miscellaneous evils" system, they would not fit well with neutrals, etc, etc. Blizzard already cuts content and half-asses things, imagine how bad I'd get with 3 factions to build bases and zones for. Then there are even more mechanical challenges in the form of three way battlegrounds OR having to have many more combinations of 1v1 BGs.

It could be done, but it would take waaaay more work than Blizzard is willing to invest. It would be awesome if done though, I know I for one would have played Scourge as a teen (undead raaaaah, period) and probably still if done well. The Illidari would have been another good pick, probably better in terms of fitting into the game (they would be the shady up and comers, the Horde would be neutral-good band of brothers and the Alliance the standard good guys).
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Old 09-11-2015, 06:48 AM
Galdus Galdus is offline

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Just pointing out that Rise of the Lich King had Arthas use his troops as a bridge to cross over to the Sunwell's territory.
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Old 09-11-2015, 07:23 AM
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No it could not.
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Old 09-11-2015, 11:04 AM
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What do you say are the key problems?
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Old 09-11-2015, 11:09 AM
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What do you say are the key problems?
An entire goddang faction of Forsaken hellbent on the eradication of all life.
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