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Old 12-01-2012, 12:09 AM
Medievaldragon Medievaldragon is offline

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Default Is there a future for Rhonin & Krasus?

Currently, without medicine for my pain -- so spent a while writing some idle ramblings.

Don't take this as fact. It's just creative speculation with bits based on canon lore.

Didn't read Tides of War or Twilight of the Aspects? Then: Spoiler Alert

There was never a corpse of Rhonin and Krasus, as if Christie Golden had left those loose ends on purpose in case a writer wished to undo the apparent demises.

In this creative speculation I added Medivh into the mix.

http://www.blizzplanet.com/blog/comm...nin-and-krasus

Last edited by Medievaldragon; 12-01-2012 at 12:12 AM..
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Old 12-01-2012, 12:12 AM
Mshadowz Mshadowz is offline

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I was just reading this article and thinking "I should bring this up on SoL". While I think this is a great possibility, I don't think they had any plan other than "get rid of Krasus because he would just get in the way of Cataclysm and kill Rohnin because we need Jaina as the leader of the Kirin tor."

They were victims of being in the way.
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Old 12-01-2012, 12:16 AM
Medievaldragon Medievaldragon is offline

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Precisely. Rhonin out of the picture facilitates Jaina taking leadership. Removing Krasus let Deathwing's Fall on the hands of Thrall, mortals and the other Aspects.

However there are two big question marks in both stories:



1. Where are the corpses? Too much coincidence both deaths left no corpse to verify those as fact.

2. Krasus' letter to Rhonin hinted at Krasus knowing bits about the future. He knew after his "apparent demise" at the Wyrmrest Temple Jaina would become the new leader of the Kirin Tor. But didn't warn his best-friend Rhonin how to save himself from death at Theramore? Something is non-kosher.



There is no foreseeable Warcraft novels from Richard A. Knaak. He's possibly starting up a Kickstarter to write at least three non-Blizzard novels. If Richard ever came back for another round on Warcraft -- Christie left the stonework for their return if Richard or other writer wished to.

Last edited by Medievaldragon; 12-01-2012 at 12:20 AM..
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Old 12-01-2012, 12:31 AM
Mshadowz Mshadowz is offline

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Rohnin and Krasus are no longer Knaak only characters, so having them show up in another book wouldn't be too far of a possibility.

While having both of their bodies end up dying via explosion does seem suspicious, I just can't see them every wanting to try and bring back characters ever since the whole "Only a setback" joke started flying every boss.
That isn't to say I wouldn't like to see them come back. While I liked their deaths, I felt like they had little impact on the rest of the world, other than a few characters, and even those characters seemed to forget about them by the end of the book (Except Vereesa, because we don't see her in game anyway).

For example, Cairne's death impacting not just those close to him, but the entire Horde. It was felt throughout the start of cataclysm, and can still be felt to those travelling to Thunder bluff to find his lodge replaced with his son. Both Rohnin and Krasus can be visited in Northrend like nothing happened, Alex doesn't even mention him since TotA, and no one mentions Rohnin in game since Wotlk either, to the point where you dont even see him in the scenario he dies in unless you serendipitously murder your way into Jaina's tower.
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Old 12-01-2012, 12:36 AM
HalfElfDragon HalfElfDragon is offline

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1. Where are the corpses? Too much coincidence both deaths left no corpse to verify those as fact.
I don't think that's at all valid. There were no corpses because it didn't make sense for there to be corpses in the context of their deaths.

Now, Krasus being alive I could see happening. Rhonin, not so much.
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Old 12-01-2012, 12:44 AM
Medievaldragon Medievaldragon is offline

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Now, Krasus being alive I could see happening. Rhonin, not so much.
Hmm, you see Krasus being alive happening? Krasus warned Rhonin who the new leader of the Kirin Tor would be. I can't see Krasus saying in that letter: -- "hey old buddy, sorry. You are gonna die. Take it like a man! By the way, <3 you Rhonin."

How about "I will fake my death, and you are meant to die in Theramore, but focus the power of the Focusing Iris to save yourself and all the people of Theramore. Time-displacing the entire city. We'll rendezvous soon."

Rhonin was able to focus the magics of the Well of Eternity when all other night elves weren't able to access it. Yet he can't use the Focusing Iris magic a split second before it went boom? I don't think so.

Last edited by Medievaldragon; 12-01-2012 at 12:48 AM..
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Old 12-01-2012, 05:32 AM
CoDimus the Staunch CoDimus the Staunch is offline

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Forgive me, but I never want to read about Rhonin or Krasus again. I dislike Mary Sues.
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Old 12-01-2012, 08:14 AM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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I don't think that's at all valid. There were no corpses because it didn't make sense for there to be corpses in the context of their deaths.
Yeah? And? The context of their death was written so that there wouldn't be any corpses.
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Old 12-01-2012, 08:46 AM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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Bringing Rhonin back would make him a Mary Sue god. He is too perfect, and should remain dead. I'm sick and tired of perfect characters with no flaws.
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Old 12-01-2012, 09:02 AM
Gurtogg_Bloodboil Gurtogg_Bloodboil is offline

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Around the release time of Twilight of the Aspects, I made a detailed thread speculating about whether Krasus was actually dead. Specifically, in relation to the “no body” trope, I offered this bit of speculation:

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For one, his death was off-screen; we didn’t actually see him die. That alone is reason enough to be suspicious of whether a crafty character like Krasus actually died. When we actually “see” the circumstances of his supposed death, it is only in a vision that came to Thrall. How or why he received this vision is ambiguous, but we’re lead to believe it was accurate because it came in conjunction with another vision of Kirygosa that Kirygosa confirmed as having happened.

However, even in the vision itself we don’t see him actually die. It concludes with “And then it went dark.” We don’t see his brains splatter everywhere or anything, just “and then it went dark.”

In addition, there was no body recovered. There was just some kind of ambient energy left over that had Krasus’ life signs. No body is a very common trope to indicate the person isn’t actually dead, and to quote Ultimate Nick Fury, “There's not too many actual rules to this game of ours but one of the big ones is: if there is no corpse the guy's alive.”

What’s interesting is Deathwing himself uses a very similar line in the book during a conversation with the Twilight Father.

“But what of Thrall? Is he dead?”
“He fell to the earth from the back of Kalecgos during the battle,” the Twilight Father said. “Even if he survived the fall, which is unlikely, Blackmoore went after him.”
“You think him dead, then?”
“Certainly.”
“I do not,” said Deathwing. “I want the body. Search for as long as you must to bring it before me. I will see it before I discount him.”
“As my lord wills, it shall be done.”


So, Deathwing himself won’t buy that someone is dead without seeing the body and that’s in the same book as Krasus’ questionable demise. A bit of lamp-shading?
Given the more recent revelation that Krasus had a form of precognition, it makes it even more plausible that he may have set up the whole thing for some greater purpose.
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Old 12-01-2012, 10:02 AM
Medievaldragon Medievaldragon is offline

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“I do not,” said Deathwing. “I want the body. Search for as long as you must to bring it before me. I will see it before I discount him.”
“As my lord wills, it shall be done.”

So, Deathwing himself won’t buy that someone is dead without seeing the body and that’s in the same book as Krasus’ questionable demise. A bit of lamp-shading?
Red-herring all over the place.

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Given the more recent revelation that Krasus had a form of precognition, it makes it even more plausible that he may have set up the whole thing for some greater purpose.
Krasus was too suspicious wanting to remain behind in the Ruby Sanctum, and the way he talked to the eggs. As if he was waiting for the Twilight's Hammer to show up.

Is it precognition, was it Nozdormu, or was it Medivh? Red-herring: Medivh recognized Thrall in that alternate reality and told him how to find the time-lost Nozdormu. How did Medivh knew that much info?

Medivh is definitely aware of the Hour of Twilight, and it was because of Nozdormu (in part) the demon soul was retrieved from the past to use as a weapon against Deathwing to prevent Hour of Twilight.

If Medivh knew what finding Nozdormu would do to the Hour of Twilight timeline, then he also knows about End Time and Moruzond's demise. Cause and effect.

To me Medivh was in communication with Krasus (off-panel).

Either this was intended by Christie, the Creative Team or darn someone should exploit that for a future expansion and stories.

World of Warcraft: Timewalkers -- visiting different eras.
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Old 12-01-2012, 10:33 AM
Fordragon Fordragon is offline

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I strongly doubt they have any further plans for the two of them if Knaak is gone. I saw this in BTech fiction constantly: an author has a pet unit made up of pet characters who he depicts as totally super amazing and showers with top-end gear and medals. When that author leaves the unit falls off the map or is killed off summarily because nobody else gives a fuck about writing them. The Black Thorns (terrible, terrible books btw) are the best example: their author left any they went into limbo for a decade. The authors forgot about them so completely that they ended up dying in a bio-war attack simply because their posting hadn't been changed in a decade and when that world got plagued, nobody cared enough to change it.
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Old 12-01-2012, 12:51 PM
Lord Eliphas Lord Eliphas is offline

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Given the more recent revelation that Krasus had a form of precognition, it makes it even more plausible that he may have set up the whole thing for some greater purpose.
..It'd be preferable if that purpose was dead in the water or should be left alone.

The problem is that it's not the fact that people do not like Krasus/Korialstrasza/Joffrey 2.5 - it's that he's written terribly. If this becomes a Super-Man fiasco like what happened in The Justice League - then it has to be on a level of writing that blizzard has never produced. In that it has to be excellent, dramatic, emotionally wrenching and overall - make sense character wise.

It completely made sense for Catelyn Tully to release Jaime to try and get her Daughters back. Or that Robb would choose someone else to marry over that Frey-Daughter/Granddaughter. He actually gets to meet the girl, connect with her and love her rather than some betrothal. It makes sense because, honestly, it's what regular people do.

Regular people make rash decisions to save their love ones, 15 year olds are inexperienced with politics - even if they manage to win battles and be militarily competent. He's still a god-damn 15 year old.

Or, say, in Crime and Punishment where the whole thing is explaining the reasoning and how the reasoning fails when executing something. Raskolnikov is not the Overman, he can't take the responsibility and pain as seen through out the entire book. But there are layers to him, he has obvious flaws but it can be explained by his environment and seen through his love of his family and trying to fix certain things. Even god damn Svidrigailov can be sympathized and pitied for his own emotional conflict.

Krasus, for the time we've known him, has nothing. There are no aspects about him that we can connect with on an emotional, personal or metaphysical/ideal level. He's just there. He's like a Star Wars prequel character. We can't connect with them, they're boring and have no ultimate purpose or quality about them that makes them interesting.

Krasus being dead gives him his own true uniqueness - he's dead.

Wasn't even a dramatic or depressing death. Svidrigailov's death is fucking depressing, with his euphemisms and his own internal struggle.
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Old 12-01-2012, 01:04 PM
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Krasus, for the time we've known him, has nothing. There are no aspects about him that we can connect with on an emotional, personal or metaphysical/ideal level. He's just there. He's like a Star Wars prequel character. We can't connect with them, they're boring and have no ultimate purpose or quality about them that makes them interesting.
As with many characters in genre fiction, the author wasn't a good enough writer to make him likable for his personality, so he was given a million powers and made to be super-important as a substitute. It's pretty normal stuff. If you went up to Knaak and told him you didn't like his characters he would give them another super-power to try and convince you otherwise.
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Old 12-01-2012, 01:10 PM
Lord Eliphas Lord Eliphas is offline

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I prefer characters whom have flaws and can't do everything.

Sometimes they may even die. This is why Eddard Stark, Svidrigailov, Raskolnikov, Han Solo, Robert Baratheon, Sandor Clegane and etc are infinitely better characters than a Krasus.
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Old 12-01-2012, 01:32 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is online now

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I still believe that the two best wirtten characters in WoW are Jaina and Sylvanas.
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Old 12-01-2012, 01:57 PM
Gurtogg_Bloodboil Gurtogg_Bloodboil is offline

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I understand not liking Knaak’s writing. I understand not liking the way he portrayed Rhonin and Krasus. I’m there too. But some of these complaints are just ridiculously hyperbolic. Both Rhonin and Krasus, even in Knaak’s dubious writing, weren’t completely infallible, invincible beings with no character defects whatsoever. They had character defects, they had foibles, they had aspects that could be relatable, they were just poorly written. There’s plenty to criticize, but there’s no need for statements that simply are not true.

The characters themselves weren’t the problem, and they were generally depicted satisfactorily when handled by someone other than Knaak. But that goes for EVERY character that he touched.
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Old 12-01-2012, 02:02 PM
Lord Eliphas Lord Eliphas is offline

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Now, are we talking about defects that are supportive of their character and give them depth or George Lucas-defects to where it's the shitty writing that makes them have uninentional defects that makes it all the more horrible?

Annnd, I'm a bit biased in that I'd like some new lore and move away from Knaak, Rhonin, and Krasus.

Thrall too. I'd like some new characters, or old characters given new depth and development. Hell, we have Anduin (Heir-Apparent), Wrathion, All of Pandaria, Garrosh, Varian - old and new characters that can be given new levels of depth and those whom need more development in game and in a decently written book.

Let the dead stay dead for once in Warcraft.

(Not including Malygos who is dead and no one speaks of him again)
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Old 12-01-2012, 02:27 PM
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No we've had too many people come back from the dead or almost death as is.


EDIT:

We've also got too many 2nd and 3rd stringers in need of development.
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Old 12-01-2012, 02:36 PM
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In the immortal words of the great DeForest Kelley, "He's dead Jim."

We'll most certainly see them again, but not as physical beings. Krasus will be a ghost, an adviser to some wayward soul who manages to find themselves on that astral plain.

As for Rhonin, I put my money on his soul becoming a trinket, or rather a part of a trinket. He'll never be seen again, but his agonizing last moments will be felt by anyone who uses it.

And now you'll say "But why would they not avoid that fate?" The answer has been in sci-fi for a very long time. "When you see the future, you act upon it, altering it to your own devices, but only so far as your own mind can understand it." That is to say, a limited being will see limited answers. Krasus foresaw events, but his inability to see the infinite variations of the universe limited him to understanding his place in the sanctuary's salvation.

To see into the future does not necessarily give you a chance to save it, only to see a variation of it.
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Old 12-01-2012, 03:12 PM
Lord Eliphas Lord Eliphas is offline

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But he's worse than dead Cantus.

His brain is gone...

(Maybeitwasnevertheretobeginwith)
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Old 12-01-2012, 03:45 PM
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But he's worse than dead Cantus.

His brain is gone...

(Maybeitwasnevertheretobeginwith)
It makes me oh so sad that I don't remember where that quote comes from. C'est la vie.

I really hope that if we do happen to see Rhonin again in the flesh, he's some insane arcane addicted half-ethereal monstrosity. Because he's lived long enough to become the villain, and more importantly, I want to see what happens when we capture him and there's that intimate scene with his loved ones around him trying to coax him back to sanity...only for him to devour their essences whole and we have to kill him forever.

Dark, yes, but that's what happens when no one gives a shit about you.
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Old 12-01-2012, 03:46 PM
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Another time anomoly appears and saves them.

Rhonin and Krasus travel back in time to Pandaria and help Shaohao fight the Sha, the same time as their previous time travelling selves are fighting the War of the Ancients.
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Old 12-01-2012, 03:55 PM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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Another time anomoly appears and saves them.

Rhonin and Krasus travel back in time to Pandaria and help Shaohao fight the Sha, the same time as their previous time travelling selves are fighting the War of the Ancients.
We later find out Rhonin helped Sargeras fighting demons.
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Old 12-01-2012, 03:58 PM
Lord Eliphas Lord Eliphas is offline

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It makes me oh so sad that I don't remember where that quote comes from. C'est la vie.

I really hope that if we do happen to see Rhonin again in the flesh, he's some insane arcane addicted half-ethereal monstrosity. Because he's lived long enough to become the villain, and more importantly, I want to see what happens when we capture him and there's that intimate scene with his loved ones around him trying to coax him back to sanity...only for him to devour their essences whole and we have to kill him forever.

Dark, yes, but that's what happens when no one gives a shit about you.
I'd be happy at that ending.

Also Rhonin was secretly Krasus and Krasus was Rhonin.

And Thrall was (secretly) Lucifer of Azeroth and will fight a three-day war against the Titans, and lose. Badly.
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