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  #26  
Old 06-19-2013, 07:33 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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I think this is just Baron bitching about WC III for the sake of not being WC II.
You missed the part where I said it's a better game than Warcraft II. Try to get Kir to agree to that.
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  #27  
Old 06-19-2013, 07:34 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Considering Illidan's reputation I'm not surprised. What would you do if you saw the guy responsible for breaking the world in front of you, with an army of angry fish people?
I'm pretty sure it was the fel candy.
Chicks dig candy.

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If Mal'Ganis and the other dreadlords really were unbeatable, then the idiot ball falls to the Burning Legion.

Why didn't the Legion have dreadlords leading the charge? Arthas corrupted himself to kill Mal'Ganis, and Illidan corrupted himself to kill Tichondrius. How were the mortal forces able to kill any other dreadlords? We know from cutscenes that there were at least three others. Why didn't they play a role?

Either the dreadlords were very beatable through ordinary means, or the Legion was stupid for not utilizing them on the front lines.
Aren't they just unbeatable in the sense that they can return after being slain? The fact that Tichondrius and Mal'ganis were more powerful than their adversaries has nothing to do with the race's strength, just with the individual's.

Last edited by Nazja; 06-19-2013 at 07:38 AM..
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  #28  
Old 06-19-2013, 07:41 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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The Aszune thing, it is not valid criticism because that was new lore then, it WAS the ploothook then. That it got dropped or outright ignored is an issue, but with WoW for not picking it up, not with WCIII for creating it.
Plothole.

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I don't get the Ogre Legion thing. What are you referring to exactly?
Try hiring some ogre mercenaries.

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Also, a bit of a bother but can you verify that the "Fel orc" Blademasters from Alterac in fact do Chaos Damage. If not it can be said they are just orcs who painted themselves red to look intimidating. Preferably with a screenshot.
This is just some crazy-ass handwave of epic proportions.

Wouldn't it be easier to say that, I dunno, they turned Fel after overexposure from their demon gates and demonic rituals?

Speaking about it: why change the red orcs' name from "Chaos Orcs" (ROC) to "Fel Orcs" (TFT)? I personally prefer the second one, but it led to a REALLY huge confusion on sites like Wowwiki, with posters substituting their handwaving for actual lore.


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Not to mention that they can be explained as particularly deadly Blademasters (to account for Chaos damage), or those who were just that much more exposed to Fel, which also makes sense since Blademasters were originally from the Burning Blade Clan, a clan of orcs who OD'ed on Fel.
See, that's more like what I was thinking. Given that they had a demon gate, summoning a demon to drink its blood, or just flat being overexposed to fel energy from the portal (like... those Horde sentries in WoW) makes it a better handwave.

Regarding the damage, I think it was normal in the original ROC, but in TFT we got the Fel Blademasters in Magtheridon's fel orc armies, while their damage was changed to "Hero" instead of normal.

But facepaint is just wtf. The two fel orc leaders were definitely fel, with demonic eyes and all. The Slave Master is a bit questionable (I THINK he was supposed to be a part of the scrapped demonic faction, given where his soundfiles are located), but the Fel Blademaster led the Blakcrock Warlocks and stood right near the Demon Gate, so... It kinda make sense that when Grom's orcs went demonic they were turned into creatures of similar form.

But what I was pondering about is more related to the "Why Are Fel Orc Demon Worshippers Ruling the Blackrock Clan" rather than to "How Did Those Two Become Fel Orcs". Said demon worship is treated like something that the orcs have been doing since forever, while it's an entirely new addition to the lore.

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Now you'd call that a handwave, but I have no problem with that. I have a problem when we CAN'T handwave something. When lore A exists and lore B exists and those two just can't coexist, that is when I call shenanigans.
What do you mean, on examples? I think we can handwave anything.

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle
You missed the part where I said it's a better game than Warcraft II. Try to get Kir to agree to that.
Agree to what?

My favorite Warcraft is TFT, if anyone is interested.

Gee, people sure have strange ideas about my... ideas...
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  #29  
Old 06-19-2013, 07:45 AM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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The Warsong clan.

I was surprised to see it back in Ashenvale in WoW. I assumed it was wiped out in the final Orc mission back in WCIII.
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  #30  
Old 06-19-2013, 07:45 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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What do you mean, on examples? I think we can handwave anything.
Orgrimmar has underground cloning laboratories. Thrall was replaced by a robot with reduced diplomatic functionality and sensibilities. Parts of Azeroth time-travelled to the WoW era from the second and third war due to the titan of time sneezing.

Thus, the alliance-horde conflict.
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  #31  
Old 06-19-2013, 07:53 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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@Grackle

No one said the Dreadlords were unbeatable, their only trick is evading death and even then only at the cost of being weak and in hiding for a long while, hardly an overwhelming advantage.
All I meant was that Mal'Ganis had Arthas' forces caught in a bad position. And while Mal'Ganis could have easily won then and there he was following Ner'zul's orders so they could get Arthas to work for them by picking up Frostmourne, so he held back. As we know he got stabbed in the gut for it, it is a very logical and clear story.

And I don't see your point about Garithos. I said he and his troops were hiding somewhere, while the villagers died. I see no logic or plot gaps here.

And while the Nazi analogy wasn't perfect it was good enough, because for them [the orcs] to be changed and redeemed someone obviously had to be blamed for "the fall" and it happened to be Gul'dan and his cronies, while Doomhammer, Kargath and such were whitewashed as tragic or misled heroes who just worked with what they were given.
This was even touched on in WCIII when Grom reveals to Thrall that he had willingly drank the blood of Mannoroth even though he suspected, or outright knew, of the damnation it would bring. Thrall got enraged at this because it shattered his illusion that Grom was an innocent victim in all of this.
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  #32  
Old 06-19-2013, 08:07 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Grom Hellscream: Ah, Thrall. You always believed that the demons corrupted our race, but that's only half true. We gave ourselves up willingly on Draenor! The other chieftains and I... we drank Mannoroth's blood, Thrall. We brought this curse upon ourselves!
Thrall: You did this... to our people... knowingly? Arrrgghhh!
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  #33  
Old 06-19-2013, 08:09 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard View Post
Grom Hellscream: Ah, Thrall. You always believed that the demons corrupted our race, but that's only half true. We gave ourselves up willingly on Draenor! The other chieftains and I... we drank Mannoroth's blood, Thrall. We brought this curse upon ourselves!
Thrall: You did this... to our people... knowingly? Arrrgghhh!
What exactly are we supposed to see here?
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  #34  
Old 06-19-2013, 08:13 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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What exactly are we supposed to see here?
The implication that Kargath and the other chieftains also willingly drank the blood. Doomhammer wasn't a chieftain at the time though.

I've said it before: The only reason a new horde could ever exist was because Thrall was rather naive towards his own people. After all, he had only heard legends. Lords of the Clans gives us a positive image of Doomhammer because we're following Thrall, who doesn't actually know anything of orcs but the vaguest outlines of their history. However, this allowed him to hold up the orcs to an ideal no other, more informed, orc could.
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  #35  
Old 06-19-2013, 08:16 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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How is Aszune and the complex she is found in a plothole? Not everything needs to be explained right away, a bit of mystique to keep us wondering is integral to a good story I'd say. I just disagree with you here.

Right, it used to say "a soldier of the Ogre Legion." Perhaps the ogres believe their race to be akin to one giant army and the Ogre Legion would be another name for their entire collective. A supranational(tribal) idea of unity and hope for the future.
Again to me that is more of a promise of future plot and something that sets me wondering than a case of "WTF is this, this can't work!"

And I do think there is a difference between Fel and Chaos orcs, especially in the amount of Fel exposure. Chaos orcs were just red orcs hopped up on demon juice, they were all presumably fully healed like Grom. Fel orcs on the other hand have strange bony protrusions and massive sabre like teeth. A good analogy would be comparing a bunch of guys who got high as kites after finding a stash of cocaine that one time, to a bunch of veteran crackheads.
About the demonicly inclined leadership of the Lordaeron branch of Blackrocks, well that was an outright retconn. Which is bad but not an example of internal inconsistency with WCIII.

For an example of something that can't be handwaved off the top of my head, the Forsaken/Dalaran thing at Dalaran Crater. This is where a rookie Forsaken agent sloppily killed several mages for shit and giggles while we are supposed to believe Dalaran is fine with the Forsaken and doesn't even send a strongly worded letter.
Which is why Metzen felt the need to decanonize it, unofficially.


PS. Gotta say I am having a lot of fun in this discussion, seems even talking about the lore is better in the WCIII era
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  #36  
Old 06-19-2013, 08:17 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
If Mal'Ganis and the other dreadlords really were unbeatable, then the idiot ball falls to the Burning Legion.

Why didn't the Legion have dreadlords leading the charge? Arthas corrupted himself to kill Mal'Ganis, and Illidan corrupted himself to kill Tichondrius. How were the mortal forces able to kill any other dreadlords? We know from cutscenes that there were several others. Why didn't they play a role?

Either the dreadlords were very beatable through ordinary means, or the Legion was stupid for not utilizing them on the front lines.
Only Tichondrius was "too strong to be killed easily", as the leader of Dreadlords. Others, while powerful, were definitely killable (well, defeatable), as demonstrated by Detheroc and Dalvengyr being slain by generic troops.

I think Mal'Ganys has the Divine Armor in the last mission (that heavily minimizes all non-chaos damage) but it may simply be game mechanics so that you have to go and get Frostmourne instead of charging at him with your normal units. One way or another "You need Frostmourne to defeat Mal'Ganis" was all just a plot envisioned by Ner'zhul, to lure Arthas (on his hero trip to kill the big bad demon) into picking the walky-talky that would allow Ner'zhul to turn Arthy to the Dead Side.


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What about in Scourge Mission 2, which had more than just Knights under the "Silver Hand" banner?
Militia organized by the paladins to protect the town?

Truthfully, they all had unique titles, regarding what group they were representing (same with Scourge Mission 1 in TFT).
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  #37  
Old 06-19-2013, 08:17 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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The implication that Kargath also willingly drank the blood. Doomhammer wasn't a chieftain at the time though.
If that's what it implies, how come nobody makes a fuss about Durotan? I mean, you could say that it implies that he drank too. Anyways, it really doesn't imply anything, imho. He's just referring to the majority. Had he mentioned the exceptions to the rule, that would have been a long sentence.
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  #38  
Old 06-19-2013, 08:28 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Originally Posted by C9H20
And I do think there is a difference between Fel and Chaos orcs, especially in the amount of Fel exposure. Chaos orcs were just red orcs hopped up on demon juice, they were all presumably fully healed like Grom. Fel orcs on the other hand have strange bony protrusions and massive sabre like teeth. A good analogy would be comparing a bunch of guys who got high as kites after finding a stash of cocaine that one time, to a bunch of veteran crackheads.
NO NO NO! This is wowpedia-induced fanon from trying to attribute unique TBC fel orc models to chaos orcs being a different subspecies!

1) TFT had NO "bony protrusions" on Fel Orcs, despite, well, introducing them.

2) Fel Orcs were not just added to the Horde unit pool. The previous "Chaos Orcs" were completely removed from existence by the nature of rename (especially tedious in Russian translation, which had them change from "Dark Orcs" to "Draenor Orcs")

3) Chaos Orcs have never, ever been mentioned again. All of their units (including Grom's model) became fel orcs.

4) The "simply red orcs without bony protrusions" do appear in TBC among all of the Fel Orc armies - usually as raiders and mages (that includes one of their chieftains, Grillok Darkeye). The reason? Animation differences. That is all. That is all the difference between the two. The unique Fel Orc model just isn't good with headgear/riding animations. There is no secret difference.

tl;dr: Chaos Orcs were never referred again after the rename, non-bony fel orcs are the result of animation differences.
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  #39  
Old 06-19-2013, 08:32 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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NO NO NO! This is wowpedia-induced fanon from trying to attribute unique TBC fel orc models to chaos orcs being a different subspecies!

1) TFT had NO "bony protrusions" on Fel Orcs, despite, well, introducing them.

2) Fel Orcs were not just added to the Horde unit pool. The previous "Chaos Orcs" were completely removed from existence by the nature of rename (especially tedious in Russian translation, which had them change from "Dark Orcs" to "Draenor Orcs")

3) Chaos Orcs have never, ever been mentioned again. All of their units (including Grom's model) became fel orcs.

4) The "simply red orcs without bony protrusions" do appear in TBC among all of the Fel Orc armies - usually as raiders and mages (that includes one of their chieftains, Grillok Darkeye). The reason? Animation differences. That is all. That is all the difference between the two. The unique Fel Orc model just isn't good with headgear/riding animations. There is no secret difference.

tl;dr: Chaos Orcs were never referred again after the rename, non-bony fel orcs are the result of animation differences.
Afaik, the protrusions aren't natural. The orcs get them intentionally, they aren't fel mutations. Someone should fix wowpedia.
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  #40  
Old 06-19-2013, 08:43 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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If that's what it implies, how come nobody makes a fuss about Durotan? I mean, you could say that it implies that he drank too. Anyways, it really doesn't imply anything, imho. He's just referring to the majority. Had he mentioned the exceptions to the rule, that would have been a long sentence.
Agreed.

Also the reason TFT Fel orcs look the same is because who would bother to make entirely new models to showcase bony protrusions and bigger teeth when you have perfectly serviceable models with Chaos orcs.
And the rename in the MapEditor is entirely minor and certainly not something Blizzard intended to use as a means of spreading lore. It was changed just to avoid confusion with the actual users of the MapEditor (so they don't think they are dealing with slightly different models, hence wasting their time when it turns out they aren't).

Also Nazja made a good point, the protrusions are actually rocks they shove into their bodies because... they are crazy mazochists I suppose. Though I think the spines sticking out of their backs and giant teeth are mutations previously not seen on Chaos orcs.

Also Fel orcs have mutated internal organs IIRC, the organs shrunk and became useless while the orcs became huge and bulky, they are entirely sustained by Fel.
Now magic is magic but those seem like changes you just can't undo, while Chaos orcs were healed.
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  #41  
Old 06-19-2013, 08:43 AM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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There is certainly discontinuity between Warcrafts Two and Three, but in and of itself WCIII makes a fine story worthy of Blizzard.

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The wackiest plot holes, however, happened in the "Brothers in Blood" mission from the night elf campaign:
  • -The Watchers... Everything about them. Their forces somehow include human/high elven Mystics and OWLBEAR WATCHERS.
  • -For some reason, said Watchers imprisoned a poor wolf named Loki.
  • -Neither the Watchers thought twice about fighting the current head of the state, nor did Tyrande try to reason, or, I dunno, order them instead of attacking the mass security prison. ELUNE AKBAR!
These can all be rationalized as game mechanics. Tyrande was attacked on sight because orders were to attack anyone who entered the prison on sight. Then the situation escalated to the point where negotiation would be pointless.

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The wackiest plot holes, however, happened in the "Brothers in Blood" mission from the night elf campaign:
  • -For some reason, Furion hates black dragons and is surprise to see any of them alive at all.
Why is that surprising?

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Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard View Post
The wackiest plot holes, however, happened in the "Brothers in Blood" mission from the night elf campaign:
  • -For some reason, the Felwood furbolgs decided to choose the highly dangerous (and guarded) Barrow Dens for their new home, and were speedier and sneakier then the Sentinels in their efforts to find and open it. Furbolgs need none of ya Archdruids.
I got the impression they were already inside when the Barrow Dens were sealed.

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The wackiest plot holes, however, happened in the "Brothers in Blood" mission from the night elf campaign:
  • -"Bear gods". What does that mean? Why did a random group of OWLBEAR WATCHERS attack Furion? It's never explained.
Why does it need to be? It's a peripheral lore mechanic to drive a bit of plot, it's not meant to be a big deal.

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The wackiest plot holes, however, happened in the "Brothers in Blood" mission from the night elf campaign:
  • -Everyone is okay with Tyrande slaying the prison's contingent and never mentions it ever again. Even Maiev has forgotten to say something regarding the total massacre.
What are you talking about? For one thing, Tyrande obviously didn't kill the entire contingent, as evinced by Maiev's survival, and for another Maiev does call her out on it during TFT.

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1) They are just silly. It's like they lacked a model for the male wardens and had to use some random owlbears named "Elder Watchers".

2) Somehow in TFT they are aggressive beasts that slaughter orcish villages!
1 - "They are just silly?" Really? We know that the Night Elf military was wholly female, so why would you expect male wardens?

2 - Problem? You're surprised that a race of ancient nature spirits is inclined to attack the orcs?

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It's just... unexplained. The whole thing ends abruptly with Furion pondering on what did the owlbear mean - "Perhaps the creature was referring to the sleeping druids of the claw. But why would he call them bear gods, when they appear as I do?"...

And we never get the answer.
Kir, pay attention. The answer is that they didn't appear as he did. They were bears.

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Why couldn't Arthas figure out that Mal'Ganis and the Lich King were very beatable, without the evil sword that corrupts you?
The implication is that they weren't.

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
After the Scourge went through Lordaeron and we see the cutscene of the Burning Legion encountering simple townsfolk and talking about how easy it is, where have Garithos's crew been all this time?
The implication is that Garithos only managed to get a foothold when the Legion left to go bother the Night Elves.

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Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard View Post
I think only Baron can definitely find such moments. Me, I was searching for plotholes - what was left in plot, but never explained.
That's not what a plot hole is. A plot hole is a narrative strand that does not logically connect one event to another.

You're talking about enigmas. Enigmas are totally fair game.

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Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard View Post
Stuff like Azsune and the whole ancient skeleton complex under Stonetalon mountain... Stuff like the Ogre Legion... The Fel Orc leaders of Alterac Blackrocks... Stuff that you need to heavily handwave to explain and fit together with the rest of the lore.
There is no need to handwave anything for Azsune or the Stonetalon dungeon. They are simply ancient relics from a time lost to history.

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If Mal'Ganis and the other dreadlords really were unbeatable, then the idiot ball falls to the Burning Legion.
Yeah, well, what else is new? But the reason Mal'Ganis was unbeatable that level isn't because he's omnipotent and invulnerable but because he's in his element and Arthas was decidedly out of his own.
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And the HRE was a meme that went too far.
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I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
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  #42  
Old 06-19-2013, 08:52 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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For an example of something that can't be handwaved off the top of my head, the Forsaken/Dalaran thing at Dalaran Crater. This is where a rookie Forsaken agent sloppily killed several mages for shit and giggles while we are supposed to believe Dalaran is fine with the Forsaken and doesn't even send a strongly worded letter.
Which is why Metzen felt the need to decanonize it, unofficially.
It could be handwaved with a little effort. Maybe there were no witnesses, so Dalaran could never prove it was Forsaken instead of Scourge who killed them. Maybe Dalaran was afraid of being totally killed by Sylvanas, so they didn't rock the boat diplomatically.

Comparable situations would be: Why didn't the end of the Founding of Durotar campaign cause a massive unending civil war between Jaina-loyal Theramore and Daelin-loyal Kul Tiras, enraged over the regicide of the Alliance Grand Admiral and their own leader?

What happened to the human soldiers under Arthas's command after the RoC Arthas campaign? The survivors of Muradin's camp know that Arthas turned traitor. What about the humans? And if they did know, why wasn't Arthas at least guarded a little bit when he returned to Lordaeron?


And really, it looks like Arthas just stabbed Terenas and ran away singing trololol. Because in the next mission Capital City is still standing, and Arthas is hiding in the shadows so ordinary Town Guards don't gut him like a fish.
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  #43  
Old 06-19-2013, 08:53 AM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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What happened to the human soldiers under Arthas's command after the RoC Arthas campaign?
Arthas killed them all and raised them as undead... Do some fucking research.
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  #44  
Old 06-19-2013, 08:56 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Arthas killed them all and raised them as undead... Do some fucking research.
You're citing a novel source, aren't you? I'm talking about the game.

And if your answer is the real one, then how did Arthas take down his entire army without them gang-stabbing him to death and also without doing serious harm to Muradin's men? Remember that Arthas is hiding and cowering from ordinary soldiers in Scourge Mission 1.
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Old 06-19-2013, 08:57 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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You're citing a novel source, aren't you?
It's a quest in icecrown where you take control of Arthas and stab his men to death.

The way he did it is by casting a lot of raise undead spells whenever he killed people.
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  #46  
Old 06-19-2013, 08:59 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
You're citing a novel source, aren't you? I'm talking about the game.

And if your answer is the real one, then how did Arthas take down his entire army without them gang-stabbing him to death and also without doing serious harm to Muradin's men? Remember that Arthas is hiding and cowering from ordinary soldiers in Scourge Mission 1.
Didn't they just starve and freeze, according to ROC?
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  #47  
Old 06-19-2013, 08:59 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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It's a quest in icecrown where you take control of Arthas and stab his men to death.

The way he did it is by casting a lot of raise undead spells whenever he killed people.
And what are Muradin's men doing all this time?

Of course, now we're in WoW territory, yeah?...
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  #48  
Old 06-19-2013, 09:01 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
And what are Muradin's men doing all this time?

Of course, now we're in WoW territory, yeah?...
Yeah, firmly in WoW territory. Muradin's men aren't present for the ordeal. Think they split up before that, as Arthas' men are quite a distance from where Frostmourne was found.
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  #49  
Old 06-19-2013, 09:02 AM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

Elune
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Since Baron is too lazy I'll have to do it myself.

Here's the quest given by Matthias Lehner

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  #50  
Old 06-19-2013, 09:04 AM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
And what are Muradin's men doing all this time?
Hiding out in Azjol'Nerub, apparently. TFT.
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And the HRE was a meme that went too far.
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You are pretty cool for being one of the bad guys.
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I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
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