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  #26  
Old 01-29-2016, 01:50 PM
Khyrberos Khyrberos is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
Well, when you take a look at the former Warcraft III concept map, you will see Undermine as well, so it is pretty safe to assume that Goblins were supposed to be important in the story.

Oh and as Warcraft II veteran, I have to say that this map is so much superior to the actual Warcraft III world map, if only because it retains the Warcraft II shape of Azeroth (aka the Eastern Kingdoms). I also like the second depiction of Kalimdor (the one in the bottom left corner).

As long as Stranglethorn Vale is intact, I'm fine. : )
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  #27  
Old 08-20-2017, 12:31 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Here are some interesting tidbits from the old Battle.net to show how much Warcraft III ended different than formerly ensivioned.


Footman
The vast ranks of the Alliance armies have diminished over the years due to the incessant infighting amongst the former Alliance nations. However, many of the strong-hearted citizens of Azeroth have volunteered to defend their lands as Footmen. Though these fierce warriors lack the shining plate mail and specialized training of their noble predecessors, they still fight with bravery and honor on the field of battle.


..."have diminished over the years due to the incessant infighting amongst the former Alliance nations". Not due to the orcs, but due to the incessant infighting. Yet one another example of how different the focus for the Alliance originally was. Dirty politics, even civil war (mentioned in several interviews, as some of you might remember).

Troll Headhunter
The disenfranchised Trolls of northern Lordaeron have once again pledged their savage services to the Orcish Horde. These cunning warriors are trained from birth to hunt, track and trap the most dangerous beasts in the wild. In times of war, however, Troll Headhunters turn their mighty spears upon the enemies of the Horde without hesitation. Capable of hurling their deadly spears at distant enemies, Troll Headhunters provide invaluable cover fire for the other warriors of the Horde.


As some of you may recall, I already mentioned this in the past, but the trolls of the Horde were originally going to be the same trolls as those in Warcraft II. Poor, disenfranchised souls...

Raider
Wolf Riders were once considered to be the most honored warriors of the Horde. Yet, just prior to the Second War, Gul'dan the Warlock masterminded the disbanding of the Wolf Riders. Now, after many long years, the young Warchief Thrall has decided to train a new generation. These mighty warriors carry hefty warblades into combat and rely greatly upon the cunning and ferocity of their faithful Wolf mounts to defeat their enemies.


An interesting difference from the actual manual, where Gul'dan disbanded the Raiders himself. In the original draft, he merely masterminded the disbanding, just as in Warcraft II.

Assassin
Though the mysterious female Assassins are not officially part of the Sentinel army, they serve the militaristic needs of Kalimdor with as much passion and precision as their moon-worshipping sisters. These dark women prefer to stay in the shadows and strike from afar. Like all Night Elf women, Assassins are able to Shadowmeld at night.



Sentinel
Sentinels are the leaders of the Sentinel army. These powerful warriors draw their strength from the moon goddess, Elune, and show little compassion or mercy to those who would disrupt the natural harmony of the Night Elves' proud culture. Sentinels are fond of using owls as scouts and are able to maintain a primitive telepathic rapport with their owls. Through this link, the Sentinels are able to see far across any environment as if they were looking through their owl's eyes. Sentinels are strong and swift, but unlike most Night Elf warriors, they wear sturdy suits of light armor. Like all Night Elf women, Sentinels are able to Shadowmeld at night.


---------------------------------------------------------------

These two following are interesting when combined together...

Paladin
Though the Paladins were once loved and revered throughout the lands of Lordaeron, they have since fallen on hard times. The entire Order of the Silver Hand was disbanded for refusing to kill innocent townsfolk who were believed to be contaminated by the dreaded Undead plague. Disenfranchised and driven from their former homes, the Paladins still work selflessly to protect humanity from the gnawing jaws of evil. Empowered by the Light, these mighty warriors brandish both warhammer and holy fire in battle against all who would trample the meek and innocent.



Death Knight
Death Knights were once virtuous defenders of Humanity. However, once the Paladin ranks were disbanded by the failing Alliance, many of these holy warriors traveled to the quarantined lands to ease the suffering of those left within the plague-ridden colonies. Though the Paladins were immune to disease of any kind, they were persecuted by the general populace who believed that they had been infected by the foul plague. A small band of Paladins, embittered by society's cruelty, traveled north to find the plague's source. These renegade Paladins succumbed to bitter hatred over the course of their grueling quest. When they finally reached Ner'zhul's icy fortress in Northrend they had become dark and brooding. The Lich King offered them untold power in exchange for their services and loyalty. The weary, vengeful warriors accepted his dark pact, and although they retained their humanity, their twisted souls were bound to his evil will for all time. Bestowed with black, vampiric Runeblades and shadowy steeds, Death Knights serve as the Scourge's mightiest generals.


Seems the original plan was for the Alliance as a whole to disband the Silver Hand, not just Arthas. And it seems the Plaguelands were supposed to be quarantined for a prolonged amount of time.

Dread Lord
Dreadlords are incredibly powerful demonic entities that are masters of darkness and mental domination. These cunning, malefic beings were once considered to be the most trusted lieutenants of the Burning Legion. Yet Kil'jaeden, the Lord of the Legion, tasked his faithful Dreadlords to watch over and ensure that the Lich King Ner'zhul carried out his orders to sow chaos in the mortal world. The Dreadlords carried out their task flawlessly, yet over time they fell under the influence of Ner'zhul's undead plague. Now, unbeknownst to Kil'jaeden and his Legion, the Dreadlords serve the Lich King and live only to carry out his dark agenda. Dreadlords generally appear as dashing human males and are adept at charming and beguiling mortal creatures through telepathy. Dreadlords radiate darkness around them and are fond of traveling within shadows.


Many might remember how the Dread Lords were originally planned to be enslaved by Ner'zhul. But there's another interesting bit; how even at their very conception, Blizzard wanted them to sow chaos among the humans disguised as one of them.

Last edited by Marthen; 08-20-2017 at 02:18 PM..
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  #28  
Old 08-20-2017, 01:55 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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I'm glad they didn't keep that bit with the Dreadlords being enslaved, would make the Legion seem pretty weak.
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  #29  
Old 08-20-2017, 02:36 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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I'm glad they didn't keep that bit with the Dreadlords being enslaved, would make the Legion seem pretty weak.
Can't say I agree there. Context is important. This lore comes from the time when the Legion was supposed to be another playable faction, a grave threat, yet one ultimately still possible to contend with conventionally, something I would have personally preferred. Moreover, something like this would have evened the odds even further, and more importantly, made for a potentially interesting story.
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  #30  
Old 08-20-2017, 02:51 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Can't say I agree there. Context is important. This lore comes from the time when the Legion was supposed to be another playable faction, a grave threat, yet one ultimately still possible to contend with conventionally, something I would have personally preferred. Moreover, something like this would have evened the odds even further, and more importantly, made for a potentially interesting story.
Eh, I dunno, I like the legion as a big world-stomping army.

If you can travel worlds and such being able to be beaten by conventional means is kinda weak, especially if Kil'jaeden makes Ner'zhul his pawn, then turns him into Lich King after the Horde fails him, and then the dreadlords fail? All very "eh" to me.

Though I suppose this boils down more to personal taste.
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  #31  
Old 08-20-2017, 03:53 PM
Almed Almed is offline

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What we saw of the Legion in RoC had them use the Scourge for the conquering. And this is even with Kel'thuzad calling them a huge army that's devoured loads of worlds. And recall the manual said the Legion under Sargeras had a million for its first invasion of Azeroth.

Last edited by Almed; 08-20-2017 at 04:10 PM..
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  #32  
Old 08-21-2017, 01:35 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Almed View Post
What we saw of the Legion in RoC had them use the Scourge for the conquering. And this is even with Kel'thuzad calling them a huge army that's devoured loads of worlds. And recall the manual said the Legion under Sargeras had a million for its first invasion of Azeroth.
That's absolutely true, but again, context matters. The Dread Lords (note they were not dreadlords yet) being enslaved by Ner'zhul wouldn't have fit the context of Warcraft III as we know it and as it was, but here we are speaking of the time when the story was supposed to be very different, the Legion being playable and having its own campaign (ie not using the Scourge to conquer all the time), the human nations fighting against each other, the trolls of Lordaeron still following the Horde (instead of being antagonist), etc.
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  #33  
Old 08-21-2017, 04:57 PM
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Maybe the Legion campaign would have had them scouring the other Eastern Kingdoms north of the Thandol Span?
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  #34  
Old 08-22-2017, 12:36 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Almed View Post
Maybe the Legion campaign would have had them scouring the other Eastern Kingdoms north of the Thandol Span?
That's incredibly hard to say, as we do not know what the story originally was. Chances are it was rather different than what we have got.
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  #35  
Old 08-22-2017, 01:41 AM
Almed Almed is offline

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Still, if Theramore was put in for WoW then what would get the Alliance to sail towards Kalimdor? If only for the final battle?
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  #36  
Old 08-22-2017, 03:17 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Still, if Theramore was put in for WoW then what would get the Alliance to sail towards Kalimdor? If only for the final battle?
That's the thing. Theramore was invented only in 2002/2003. This is stuff from 2000, the early drafts of Warcraft III. They might have planned a completely different story, a completely different world.

It is very important to remember that both World of Warcraft and Warcraft III were developed for several years and went through different iterations. We can't simply say that they must have had some reason for the Alliance to sail west because there is Theramore in World of Warcraft, as it is rather possible that at that point in time, they had completely different plans for both games.

For example, let's take a look at at some early maps;

Here we have two for Warcraft III;





And here one for World of Warcraft;



Notice one similar thing; at that point, Kalimdor was very, very small (and no Theramore in the World of Warcraft map, only Ratchet), whereas the East was the major landmass still. This goes in tandem with the fact that the East was developed and conceptualized far earlier than Kalimdor.
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  #37  
Old 08-22-2017, 05:52 AM
Almed Almed is offline

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Do you say that the final product is less interesting than what we didn't get?

Last edited by Almed; 08-22-2017 at 05:54 AM..
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  #38  
Old 08-22-2017, 06:09 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Do you say that the final product is less interesting than what we didn't get?
I think that comes to personal preferences, really.
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  #39  
Old 08-22-2017, 08:40 AM
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Actually, concepts and something unrealized always seems more interesting thanks to our imagination.
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  #40  
Old 08-22-2017, 09:09 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Actually, concepts and something unrealized always seems more interesting thanks to our imagination.
Sure, but saying that I would have preferred for the trolls of Lordaeron to be part of the Horde, instead of being villanized so they could be used as mobs in World of Warcraft, has nothing to do with imagination. Nor has saying I would have preferred the Alliance campaign to focus on the Alliance and its nations as a whole instead of just Arthas. It's really about personal taste.
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  #41  
Old 08-22-2017, 01:59 PM
Almed Almed is offline

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What's the smallest difference from the final game that would warp the Warcraft world from how we know it?

Last edited by Almed; 08-22-2017 at 02:09 PM..
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  #42  
Old 08-22-2017, 02:19 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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What's the smallest difference from the final game that would warp the Warcraft world from how we know it?
I am not sure I understand the question correctly. There are many differences, hard to pick the smallest one.
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  #43  
Old 08-22-2017, 04:20 PM
Almed Almed is offline

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You could pick a smaller one at random.

Also, is there a thread like this but for WoW? I ask since I wonder what what Metzen and Co. or other sources have said about what they were doing with the High Elves, Blood Elves, and Forsaken before the faction system with its shoehorning. Alongside when they just started out with it.

Last edited by Almed; 08-22-2017 at 04:40 PM..
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  #44  
Old 08-23-2017, 02:34 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Almed View Post
You could pick a smaller one at random.
Well, I'd say that the Dread Lords serving Ner'zhul is pretty game changing. A friend of mine suggested the reason why they never intended the East (and they never did, even the earliest concepts from 1999/2000 had Azeroth/Khaz Modan intact) to be ravaged by the Scourge/Legion is because they planned for Ner'zhul to betray the demons way earlier and perhaps even fight them directly in Lordaeron and Northrend.


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Originally Posted by Almed View Post
Also, is there a thread like this but for WoW? I ask since I wonder what what Metzen and Co. or other sources have said about what they were doing with the High Elves, Blood Elves, and Forsaken before the faction system with its shoehorning. Alongside when they just started out with it.
Not that I know. Although it is arguably a bit harder with World of Warcraft than with Warcraft III, its previews often focused far more on game mechanics than backstories. As for when the development started, we know that they were making concepts and had some basic build back in 1999.


Last edited by Marthen; 08-23-2017 at 02:37 AM..
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  #45  
Old 08-23-2017, 03:47 AM
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I guess the key point against Ner'zhul converting the Dreadlords is that it raises the question of what Kil'jaeden appointed him as the Lich King for since he's both disgruntled and can apparently infect demons.
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  #46  
Old 08-23-2017, 04:16 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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I guess the key point against Ner'zhul converting the Dreadlords is that it raises the question of what Kil'jaeden appointed him as the Lich King for since he's both disgruntled and can apparently infect demons.
Obviously, it wasn't going to be an intended effect. Same with the Lich King's power growing with every soul he captured. But it is also very important to remember that Kil'jaeden had made Ner'zhul into the Lich King as punishment.

In any case, not sure why do we need to argue the merits of this change, my point merely was that it would have been a game changer in the story.
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  #47  
Old 08-23-2017, 08:17 AM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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The bit about troll headhunters is odd, the exact same description is used for the WC3 unit on battle.net.
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  #48  
Old 08-23-2017, 08:33 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by TerrorhoofMayo View Post
The bit about troll headhunters is odd, the exact same description is used for the WC3 unit on battle.net.
A leftover from the older versions.
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  #49  
Old 09-01-2017, 11:00 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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It's funny, I thought all of those battle.net descriptions were newer versions, based on the text for the Demolisher (which clearly just stole the Catapult description).

I hadn't noticed the trolls but had noticed the paladins. I wrongly assumed it was a post-RoC description of paladins, considering how even modern lore inexplicably treats Arthas's declaration as a legally binding disbandment of all the entire Silver Hand order in the world.
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  #50  
Old 09-03-2017, 08:40 AM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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It kind feels like there were a lot of different directions when it comes to the trolls. Warcraft Adventures had Zul'jin as comedy relief, while WC3 ultimately sidestepped him in order to introduce Vol'jin and the Darkspear.

I wonder if the idea was to have Thrall really form the center of a new generation for the Horde, and holding over any of the Doomhammer Horde allies would have conflicted with that because Thrall would have yielded seniority? ("But what about Grom?" WC3's Grom was very willing to be subservient to Thrall, which seems really odd given how he's been characterized literally everywhere else.)

It also feels like they made a concerted effort to draw everyone towards Kalimdor for the Mount Hyjal fight, and maybe it didn't seem like dragging Zul'jin along for that made as much sense as picking up Vol'jin and the Darkspear on the way.
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