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Old 05-08-2017, 02:51 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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I like the idea of ease of entry into the market creating competition causing wages to rise. That along with higher worker capital by making public schools better and pushing people towards trades instead of unemployable degrees. Anything that causes the cost of living to drop is going to benefit people at the lower wages too.

Baring that though a negative income tax would be better than a minimum wage. You can't pay people more than they are worth without leading to unemployment. That isn't a value judgement on someone's personal worth but what they contribute to a company. Investing in your ability to satisfy the needs of other people is a big part of life. You can't force people to carry your weight because you were more concerned with more personal self-indulgent activities. You just made a choice to care about something else and that opportunity cost isn't other people's problem so you need to live a more modest material life.
Odd. Are you saying you'd rather see what effectively amounts to a Universal Basic Income over a govt. mandate to slightly raise wages? Didn't really expect that from you.

Though the part I bolded is kind of typcal "you." Lets give every favour to business and than pray the market somehow makes magically makes it good for everyone. I mean just think PJ, we've effectively been living under "supply-side" neoliberal economics worldwide for 40 years now and yet here we are. How can you in good conscience keep advocating we keep on doing the same when obviously it isn't working out for the vast majority of people. At least tweak the ideas somewhat, Austrian school fucked up, we need something new.
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  #52  
Old 05-08-2017, 03:03 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Odd. Are you saying you'd rather see what effectively amounts to a Universal Basic Income over a govt. mandate to slightly raise wages? Didn't really expect that from you.

Though the part I bolded is kind of typcal "you." Lets give every favour to business and than pray the market somehow makes magically makes it good for everyone. I mean just think PJ, we've effectively been living under "supply-side" neoliberal economics worldwide for 40 years now and yet here we are. How can you in good conscience keep advocating we keep on doing the same when obviously it isn't working out for the vast majority of people. At least tweak the ideas somewhat, Austrian school fucked up, we need something new.
No I want it to be easier to start a business and to expand in new areas so there is more competition. If there is more competition wages will rise because businesses will have to compete for labor. Society is wealthier now than it ever has been. The US is the richest country in the world. There aren't many countries I could move to without taking a pay cut and that is because they have embraced many of your ideas.

It isn't the same thing we have been doing forever. That is a massive oversimplification and a deliberate one. You can't narrowly define the world like that unless you really want to. We use labels to describe things but the world is full of an infinite amount of possibilities on how things could be run. Efficiency, accountability, and innovation are paramount in the wealth of nations. None of which should be stifled.
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Old 05-08-2017, 03:04 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Many industries are prone to monopolies, though. Especially if they require a lot of infrastructure (eg, ISPs).
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Old 05-08-2017, 03:08 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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At least tweak the ideas somewhat, Austrian school fucked up, we need something new.
The Austrian School is somewhat like Communism, though. It has never been tried the way its proponents idealize.
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Old 05-08-2017, 03:14 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Many industries are prone to monopolies, though. Especially if they require a lot of infrastructure (eg, ISPs).
The government is a monopoly though. A lot of ISPs are propped up by local governments so they can fend off competition.

In any case ISPs that gouge people should have to worry about municipalities rolling out their own public service. I see nothing wrong with that.
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  #56  
Old 05-08-2017, 03:22 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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The government is a monopoly though. A lot of ISPs are propped up by local governments so they can fend off competition.

In any case ISPs that gouge people should have to worry about municipalities rolling out their own public service. I see nothing wrong with that.
Even without government intervention, ISPs would snowball into monopolies. Also the GOP is trying to fight public internet across the country.
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Old 05-08-2017, 03:29 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Even without government intervention, ISPs would snowball into monopolies. Also the GOP is trying to fight public internet across the country.
AT&T used to be a government mandated monopoly that stifled a lot of innovation. It has gotten better since then.

That is an industry that is difficult to enter though.
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Old 05-08-2017, 04:28 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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AT&T used to be a government mandated monopoly that stifled a lot of innovation. It has gotten better since then.

That is an industry that is difficult to enter though.
Industries with large barriers of entry like that need to be regulated. Personally, I still think that maybe internet should be a public utility like water and electricity. It would have to be watched very closely, though.
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Old 05-08-2017, 04:30 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Industries with large barriers of entry like that need to be regulated. Personally, I still think that maybe internet should be a public utility like water and electricity. It would have to be watched very closely, though.
Regulated how though?
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  #60  
Old 05-08-2017, 04:37 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Regulated how though?
For starters, charging by the GB or making a monthly "cap" really shouldn't be allowed.
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Old 05-08-2017, 04:38 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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No I want it to be easier to start a business and to expand in new areas so there is more competition. If there is more competition wages will rise because businesses will have to compete for labor. Society is wealthier now than it ever has been.
Yeah that just won't happen, especially not with increasing automation. Indeed it is you who is advocating for digging ditches and filling them in by trying to get lots of people employed in stupid, dead end jobs that should be automated. Except of course that without UBI then those people would starve and the way we are going and the way you are advocated, they probably will anyway.

Also a discussion that is more interesting to me, did you or did you not effectively endorse UBI by proposing a negative income tax?

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The US is the richest country in the world. There aren't many countries I could move to without taking a pay cut and that is because they have embraced many of your ideas.
Except in exchange for being payed less (i.e. paying more taxes) you get things like a cleaner environment, safer products, healthcare and services and a safety net should you ever find yourself in dire straits.

And yeah yeah my employer will pay for my healthcare, I know what you will say. And maybe you are right, if you end up becoming a successful engineer you will probably earn more in the US. However an average Joe who moved to Germany from the US would be considerably better off. He would get higher wages and all those comforts.

That is why you get those accusations of being selfish and mean, a lot of the stuff you say does distill into "got mine screw you." I mean you brag about poaching smart people from other countries by paying them a lot but you have to understand braindrain is a large part why poor countries remain poor. Indeed it probably stifles wealthy welfare states like Germany though to a much lesser extent.
I am just pointing out how it looks, this is not meant to be some jab at you so please don't get emotional.

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It isn't the same thing we have been doing forever. That is a massive oversimplification and a deliberate one. You can't narrowly define the world like that unless you really want to. We use labels to describe things but the world is full of an infinite amount of possibilities on how things could be run. Efficiency, accountability, and innovation are paramount in the wealth of nations. None of which should be stifled.
Look I know you are very set in your ways and I won't waste my energy debating too much about this. But think about it, it is supply side economics and ideas of the Austrian school that were applied as an answer to the economic downturn of the 70s. Reagan and Thatcher won, those policies have been what the world runs on ever since. And they are self perpetuating in that the more mega millionaires they spawn and the greater inequality gets the easier it is for those same millionaires to maintain the status quo that benefits them.
It is your guys who rule the world and clearly it is not working out. People are plainly unhappy. Dems, Reps, really every political party in almost the whole world is neoliberal. But hey you can choose to turn a blind eye and believe what you will.

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The Austrian School is somewhat like Communism, though. It has never been tried the way its proponents idealize.
Hah, my thoughts exactly.

It is why I am such a huge proponent that the major ideologues of the world go and implement an experiment stage to their pet projects. Get together, buy some small island, make an artificial one or buy a cruise ship even. Implement your policies and if it turns out you stumbled upon utopia we'll jump right on board

This, strongly ideological microstates, is something that certain thinkers predicted. But so far to my dismay they have not really taken off. Maybe one day.
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Old 05-08-2017, 04:56 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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For starters, charging by the GB or making a monthly "cap" really shouldn't be allowed.
Maybe. I wasn't sure what you meant because they would have to be regulated to some extent by the FCC to even work without a lot of people stepping on each other's foots and then predation.

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Yeah that just won't happen, especially not with increasing automation. Indeed it is you who is advocating for digging ditches and filling them in by trying to get lots of people employed in stupid, dead end jobs that should be automated. Except of course that without UBI then those people would starve and the way we are going and the way you are advocated, they probably will anyway.
Not everything can be automated and I have a better grasp on that that you do. There is a lot of technical work that can't be automated. There is a lot of social work that can't be automated. Automation has always existed and has never wiped out all the jobs. People find something else to do. It is a boogeyman.
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Also a discussion that is more interesting to me, did you or did you not effectively endorse UBI by proposing a negative income tax?
You have to work for a negative income tax to work and it wouldn't apply to everyone.
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Except in exchange for being payed less (i.e. paying more taxes) you get things like a cleaner environment, safer products, healthcare and services and a safety net should you ever find yourself in dire straits.
Not true. The US is clean, safe, and has its own safety net.
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And yeah yeah my employer will pay for my healthcare, I know what you will say. And maybe you are right, if you end up becoming a successful engineer you will probably earn more in the US. However an average Joe who moved to Germany from the US would be considerably better off. He would get higher wages and all those comforts.
What do you consider your average Joe? Teachers get paid more in the US. So do electricians and plumbers. If any of those countries used the same standard of poverty the US uses their poverty rates would sky rocket.
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That is why you get those accusations of being selfish and mean, a lot of the stuff you say does distill into "got mine screw you." I mean you brag about poaching smart people from other countries by paying them a lot but you have to understand braindrain is a large part why poor countries remain poor. Indeed it probably stifles wealthy welfare states like Germany though to a much lesser extent.

I am just pointing out how it looks, this is not meant to be some jab at you so please don't get emotional.
Those people are just dumb though. They don't care about the minutiae of policy. They just want to screech and feel self-righteous. The details just go over their heads.
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Look I know you are very set in your ways and I won't waste my energy debating too much about this. But think about it, it is supply side economics and ideas of the Austrian school that were applied as an answer to the economic downturn of the 70s. Reagan and Thatcher won, those policies have been what the world runs on ever since. And they are self perpetuating in that the more mega millionaires they spawn and the greater inequality gets the easier it is for those same millionaires to maintain the status quo that benefits them.

It is your guys who rule the world and clearly it is not working out. People are plainly unhappy. Dems, Reps, really every political party in almost the whole world is neoliberal. But hey you can choose to turn a blind eye and believe what you will.
Don't care about Austrian school or what ever dogma you decided to ascribe to be. It wasn't just Reagan. It was JFK as well. All they did is move away from the politics of envy and took a more pragmatic solution. It is you that would rather everyone be poor as long as you can tear down someone else. Not everyone is unhappy. Neither Obama or Clinton could go back to the way we used to be without getting a massive backlash. People know better and don't hate the rich as much as some would like. It isn't just the millionaires that support this. There are plenty of middle class people as well. There are even many poor people that support this. Even a lot of Democrats had to adapt to the new political reality.

Even if the US isn't perfect neither are these nations you are promoting. They have their own economic problems. I would rather be here than there. The cost of living and wage differences are substantial. A lot of Americans suffer from a grass is greener on the other side mentality that just isn't very true.
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Old 05-08-2017, 05:00 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Maybe. I wasn't sure what you meant because they would have to be regulated to some extent by the FCC to even work without a lot of people stepping on each other's foots and then predation.
Something also needs to be done to end these regional monopolies and oligopolies.
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Old 05-08-2017, 05:05 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Something also needs to be done to end these regional monopolies and oligopolies.
People need to get involved in their local government and vote.
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Old 05-08-2017, 05:06 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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People need to get involved in their local government and vote.
For the party that likes to break up monopolies, right?
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Old 05-08-2017, 05:12 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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For the party that likes to break up monopolies, right?
Have the Democrats ever broken up a monopoly?

I think a lot of Democrats are just really corporatists.
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Old 05-08-2017, 05:16 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Have the Democrats ever broken up a monopoly?

I think a lot of Democrats are just really corporatists.
Republicans tend to end up on the side of corporatism. Democrats still do, but not as much.
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Old 05-08-2017, 05:18 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Republicans tend to end up on the side of corporatism. Democrats still do, but not as much.
Nope.
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Old 05-08-2017, 05:19 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Nope.
Yep
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Old 05-08-2017, 05:33 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Yep
AT&T was broken up while Reagan was president
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Old 05-08-2017, 05:42 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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AT&T was broken up while Reagan was president
And Barry's administration challenged more mergers and acquisitions than any other. An ounce of prevention and all that.
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Old 05-08-2017, 05:45 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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And Barry's administration challenged more mergers and acquisitions than any other. An ounce of prevention and all that.
He bailed out big companies though and subsidized others. How many people were prosecuted by his justice department after the 2009 crash?
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Old 05-08-2017, 05:49 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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He bailed out big companies though and subsidized others. How many people were prosecuted by his justice department after the 2009 crash?
Nobody's perfect.
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Old 05-08-2017, 05:55 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Nobody's perfect.
Stop talking about politics.
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Old 05-08-2017, 06:02 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Not everything can be automated and I have a better grasp on that that you do. There is a lot of technical work that can't be automated. There is a lot of social work that can't be automated. Automation has always existed and has never wiped out all the jobs. People find something else to do. It is a boogeyman.
What makes you think that? I am learning to be an electrical engineer as well and I spend a great deal of my time following science and technology. I know for a fact that a lot more will be automated and a lot faster than most anyone realizes. There is nothing magical about the human brain, in 20-40 years all jobs will liable to be automated, from streetsweeper to neurosurgeon to robot technician to artist. And long before that most jobs would have gone into history books, in 10-15 years transportation jobs will be gone and that alone will be something like a quarter or all jobs and other things are being automated as we speak as well.
And in the past when things like these happened there were new jobs to be filled. Maybe a pony express guy lost his job to a train but someone had to lay down the tracks, work in the train, make the train... new jobs oppened up. The robot and information revolutions are different because robots can make robots, robots will be able to do anything and one programmer can program a million robots or make an app to serve millions. Those industries will simply not cover the job losses they induce.

This in theory is great, less work and more free time for all... if only society worked like that. Many people a lot more eminent than either you or I are troubled by this and with very good reason.

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You have to work for a negative income tax to work and it wouldn't apply to everyone.
I see. And I take it you would cut welfare that currently exists to implement this effectively doubly screwing over the unemployed who as I've just explained will have a way harder time finding a job in the near future (and indeed right now).

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Don't care about Austrian school or what ever dogma you decided to ascribe to be. It wasn't just Reagan. It was JFK as well. All they did is move away from the politics of envy and took a more pragmatic solution. It is you that would rather everyone be poor as long as you can tear down someone else. Not everyone is unhappy. Neither Obama or Clinton could go back to the way we used to be without getting a massive backlash. People know better and don't hate the rich as much as some would like. It isn't just the millionaires that support this. There are plenty of middle class people as well. There are even many poor people that support this. Even a lot of Democrats had to adapt to the new political reality.
Yeah no point talking if you are gonna be like that. All you are saying is that the rich can use their money to fill the head of the population with BS, fund astroturf movements and so on, big surprise there. Democrats are just as guilty as the Republicans of selling out to big money so again no surprise there. Why are so many people crying out to get rid of money from US politics? Because otherwise the guys with the most $$$ get to decide on where the country goes which research agrees with.
I really don't have the energy or the time to try and convince you of this. In a couple of years the truth of what I am saying will become painfully obvious to you and then it is only a question of will you do something about it.
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