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Alliance 5 83.33%
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  #51  
Old 01-05-2013, 11:30 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Originally Posted by Noitora View Post
Sparing an army of people trying to kill you is fine? Did they even say they were killing kids?

Torturing criminals, traitors or suspected is fine? Instead of interrogation, exile, imprisoning or simply killing them?

Again, where was it said that killing their army would've killed off the Orc population? You still had ogrim, grom, the frost wolves, the orcs in Outland (weren't there missions there?)

The issue is that the Alliance takes harsher action against human criminals than they do towards Horde soldiers
Would they kill the kids? They'd leave at least one alive and crippled, right? I mean, it's fully justified if you leave one alive and crippled, isn't it? And burnt? We get to burn that one a little, don't we? As long as he survives? He'd just be an orc, after all.

Christ, we're only three pages into this thing.
  #52  
Old 01-05-2013, 11:33 PM
CoDimus the Staunch CoDimus the Staunch is offline

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Originally Posted by HalfElfDragon View Post
Terenas seemed to think so. They were a defeated army, which puts any killing in a different context than casualties of war.

You're the only one bringing up children.


Torture is a form of interrogation.


Nobody has said that.

Internment camps are a pretty harsh action.
Agreed.
  #53  
Old 01-05-2013, 11:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Noitora View Post
Sparing an army of people trying to kill you is fine? Did they even say they were killing kids?

Torturing criminals, traitors or suspected is fine? Instead of interrogation, exile, imprisoning or simply killing them?

Again, where was it said that killing their army would've killed off the Orc population? You still had ogrim, grom, the frost wolves, the orcs in Outland (weren't there missions there?)

The issue is that the Alliance takes harsher action against human criminals than they do towards Horde soldiers

Edit: if Terenas spared orcs for torture, because they were heathens or for info, fine. The other kingdoms would've wanted quick deaths out of logic, revenge, or even mercy. But none of them did.
Do you think that characters only have a moral on and off switch, where if they do one action there's no way they could be okay with another?

Being okay with torture and not wanting to kill the orcs are not contradictory views for a character to hold.
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  #54  
Old 01-05-2013, 11:37 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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If varian defeated and captured the defias bandits, would it be too harsh to kill them?

Interrogation for punishment or info?

The camps weren't a punishment it was an attempt to change them
  #55  
Old 01-05-2013, 11:41 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture#Middle_Ages (NSFW - EV)

Chances are, in interpretation of Terenas's generally good nature, he probably had torture restricted to those who have half-proof against them, or perhaps something more restrictive.
  #56  
Old 01-05-2013, 11:46 PM
Garotar Garotar is offline

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Originally Posted by Millenia View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture#Middle_Ages (NSFW - EV)

Chances are, in interpretation of Terenas's generally good nature, he probably had torture restricted to those who have half-proof against them, or perhaps something more restrictive.
More than likely. I doubt he was going around and torturing random people for fun.
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  #57  
Old 01-05-2013, 11:52 PM
HalfElfDragon HalfElfDragon is offline

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Originally Posted by Noitora View Post
If varian defeated and captured the defias bandits, would it be too harsh to kill them?
I am not arguing about my personal opinion on the morality of these opinions. All I'm arguing is that these two opinions are not mutual exclusive.

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Originally Posted by Noitora View Post
The camps weren't a punishment it was an attempt to change them
That's like saying prison isn't a punishment because they're also called "correctional facilities".
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  #58  
Old 01-06-2013, 12:06 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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I'm not fucking saying he's torturing everyone or that he has a fucking switch. I'm saying if he has no trouble torturing human criminals, why not torture Orc criminals? If there were no kids what was the point in sparing them? Did he really think the orcs had no kids and killing the army would've been the end of the race?
  #59  
Old 01-06-2013, 12:12 AM
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What happened to the old one?
  #60  
Old 01-06-2013, 12:13 AM
Erthad Erthad is offline

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  #61  
Old 01-06-2013, 12:16 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Originally Posted by Noitora View Post
I'm saying if he has no trouble torturing human criminals, why not torture Orc criminals?
Well...there's no reason to assume he didn't.

Torture would be unlikely to have been a means of actual punishment or execution anyway. It was more likely a means of interrogation. So, if an orc were captured and believed to possess information vital to the security of Lordaeron or the Alliance, he very well could have (and likely would have) been subjected to any such interrogation as readily as a human, troll, or any other enemy of the state given the same reasons.

When it comes down to it, torturing people to death is only generally used as punishment when done publicly to create a spectacle (unless you're the mogu, who do it to incite fear and probably "soften up" their victim's souls for harvesting and enslavement), and frankly the Light-revering citizens of Lordaeron probably weren't the sorts to be regularly attending the weekly executions to see criminals slowly racked, stretched or drawn and quartered. It was in all likelihood something carried out in dungeons, under the watch of government personages who sought to utilize the information potentially gained from the interrogation for military purposes or legal authorities seeking to root out criminal accomplices.
  #62  
Old 01-06-2013, 12:16 AM
HalfElfDragon HalfElfDragon is offline

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Originally Posted by Noitora View Post
I'm saying if he has no trouble torturing human criminals, why not torture Orc criminals?
You haven't been saying that. You've been saying that Terenas' policy of allowing torture conflicts with his policy of not executing the orcs. And we've been saying that it doesn't.
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  #63  
Old 01-06-2013, 01:54 AM
Korath Korath is offline

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Originally Posted by Noitora View Post
I'm debating the logic of screwing with your own people but sparing an foreign army that tried to kill you. Did they have any reason to believe the entire population of orca were going to be killed? What about the planet they came from? Did they know it was destroyed? Did they not think about the orcs scattered across the EK?
Thoras Trollbane, Genn Greymane and the High Elves all demanded that every orcs is killed. The fact is that Terenas didn't even kill the leaders of the Horde (he have Doomhammer in his hands and he did nothing !).

But the torturing chambers means nothing : we don't know the frequency of their use, and we don't know which crimes bring you there. Plus, we don't know which kind of kingdom was Lordaeron : absolute monarchy ? Parliamentary monarchy ? Or maybe a more traditional, medieval monarchy ?

So,it's almost impossible to say if the torture's chambers are really so out of character.
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  #64  
Old 01-06-2013, 02:54 AM
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So Horde bias?
  #65  
Old 01-06-2013, 03:02 AM
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So Horde bias?
Always, sister.
  #66  
Old 01-06-2013, 03:09 AM
Jungleluke Jungleluke is offline

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I love that we always make a fuss about some small lines of quest-description...



/popcorn


LONG LIVE THE BITCHING THREADS!
  #67  
Old 01-06-2013, 03:12 AM
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I love that we always make a fuss about some small lines of quest-description...



/popcorn


LONG LIVE THE BITCHING THREADS!
Boyo, you should've been here for the lampposts. Oh lawdy lawd, the lampposts.
  #68  
Old 01-06-2013, 03:16 AM
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Boyo, you should've been here for the lampposts. Oh lawdy lawd, the lampposts.
I saw those, haha! Lordaeron-eblem on Forsaken-lamps and Lion-emblem on Stormwind-lamps. Glorious!
  #69  
Old 01-06-2013, 03:33 AM
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I saw those, haha! Lordaeron-eblem on Forsaken-lamps and Lion-emblem on Stormwind-lamps. Glorious!
Lampposts belong to the Forsaken, now and forever. Even Stormwind ones.
  #70  
Old 01-06-2013, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noitora View Post
Torturing criminals, traitors or suspected is fine? Instead of interrogation, exile, imprisoning or simply killing them?
Your liberal stupidity is showing. You're saying "oh, don't torture them! That's not right! Just cut their heads off an be done with it!" Spies have information that is usually vital and often can be detrimental to the kingdom/nation if it gets into the hands of the enemy. They also may have knowledge about the kingdom/nation they work for. Spies won't give that information up if you ask nicely. Thumb screws work pretty well in times like those.
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  #71  
Old 01-06-2013, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Exxile87 View Post
Your liberal stupidity is showing. You're saying "oh, don't torture them! That's not right! Just cut their heads off an be done with it!" Spies have information that is usually vital and often can be detrimental to the kingdom/nation if it gets into the hands of the enemy. They also may have knowledge about the kingdom/nation they work for. Spies won't give that information up if you ask nicely. Thumb screws work pretty well in times like those.
Of course, in real life you have the problem that, you know, you could get bad information if the cover story's good enough. Or someone who knows nothing.

Of course, I'd be pretty certain that in universe there'd be some level of magic that allows for torturers to tell whether or not the victim's telling the truth. Doesn't help if they only know a false story, but it's something I suppose.
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  #72  
Old 01-06-2013, 08:39 AM
Cemotucu Cemotucu is offline

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Originally Posted by Torch View Post
Of course, in real life you have the problem that, you know, you could get bad information if the cover story's good enough. Or someone who knows nothing.

Of course, I'd be pretty certain that in universe there'd be some level of magic that allows for torturers to tell whether or not the victim's telling the truth. Doesn't help if they only know a false story, but it's something I suppose.
The non-existence of magic didn't stop the use of torture in our world. So, even if there weren't truth serum or truth spells, that wouldn't have stop torture.
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  #73  
Old 01-06-2013, 09:22 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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We still haven't been told why the old thread was closed.



As for the the subject of the thread... I am too tired to give a fuck about any of the usual crap of this forum. I need a forum holiday.
  #74  
Old 01-06-2013, 09:29 AM
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The torture chambers and its contents could very well be a legacy from a former King who was more "morally challenged" than Terenas. He inherited it and could very well never had used it, he just kept it locked.
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  #75  
Old 01-06-2013, 09:33 AM
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Theres an easy way to make the post count explode :

I believe that the easiest way for peace between the forsaken and the humans is if sylvanas raises liam greymane, who "somehow" Convinces sylvanas to sort a treaty of sorts with varian, in return for aiding alliance, a smidgeon of land concession, and aiding against the horde. The liam greymane bit tugging at his fathers heartstrings.
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