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C9H20 07-15-2013 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard (Post 910506)
I mostly want EU membership to stop dealing with this idiotic Schengen Visa bullshit. I doubt it will actually magically do wonders for the economy (and if our government guys get the funds... suffice to say, those will stay in their pockets).

That's why I'm asking. Is there any good to it, from a citizen's POV, aside from the aforementioned border removal?

(Though I thought Bulgaria was mightyfine nowadays, tourist resort and all that?)

Well, you don't need EU membership to get Shengen Visas. It is a separate agreement from membership, we have that already. With full membership comes the "no borders" thing, maybe you mixed them up?

Croatia has entered very recently and one of the immediate effects was a drop in prices due to increased competition. However experts say that has happened in every new EU member and it is only a temporary thing, while in time the prices actually rise and purchasing power does not grow as quickly making it bad overall.

And Bulgaria is not doing so well, or so everyone who went there tells me. Seaside is doing well (but far from great) however the interior of the country is abysmal.

Anyway I am no expert so perhaps it would be best if you did some actual research.

Kir the Wizard 07-15-2013 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by C9H20 (Post 910530)
Well, you don't need EU membership to get Shengen Visas. It is a separate agreement from membership, we have that already. With full membership comes the "no borders" thing, maybe you mixed them up?

Every time I want to go on a tour to EU countries I have to get a new visa in my foreign passport, the process of getting which is really tedious, because we're not a part of the Shengen agreement. This is outrageous.

Quote:

Originally Posted by C9H20 (Post 910530)
Croatia has entered very recently and one of the immediate effects was a drop in prices due to increased competition. However experts say that has happened in every new EU member and it is only a temporary thing, while in time the prices actually rise and purchasing power does not grow as quickly making it bad overall.

That I know, and I know a little more. A lot of tourists from CIS countries visited Croatia yearly without any visas - now, because, of the Shengen thing, many had to shift for Montenegro.

Quote:

Anyway I am no expert so perhaps it would be best if you did some actual research.
That's what I do. ;)

C9H20 07-15-2013 05:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard (Post 910533)
Every time I want to go on a tour to EU countries I have to get a new visa in my foreign passport, the process of getting which is really tedious, because we're not a part of the Shengen agreement. This is outrageous.

Yeah, your country is slacking a bit there. The no-visas thing is very much attainable and I am quite a bit surprised Ukraine doesn't have it already. I was of the opinion you guys were quite a bit ahead of us.

Kir the Wizard 07-15-2013 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by C9H20 (Post 910535)
Yeah, your country is slacking a bit there. The no-visas thing is very much attainable and I am quite a bit surprised Ukraine doesn't have it already. I was of the opinion you guys were quite a bit ahead of us.

We're "quite a bit ahead" in getting cockblocked. Usually with the "we don't think you're democratic enough". Whoever decides "the level of democracy" is left unannounced.

It seemed like we were making some progress when Yushchenko was acting oh-so-sycophantingly to it, but now that Poland shifted it's attitude towards Ukraine from "best friends forever" to "MONSTERS who must publicly apologize for their wrongdoings against the great Polish people"... We weren't exactly getting any good rep.

Though we recently got a (mostly useless) treaty on liberalized Visa-getting, and Yanukovich is all about how we'll write down the Association Agreement very soon and all that...

RobLore 07-15-2013 07:48 AM

Thing is countries being integrated into the EU don't get most of the benefits with the membership, they get most of the benefits in the process to get that membership. That process includes requirements for market reforms and democratisation. It is these incentives that benefit countries in eastern Europe and the Balkans the most.

Now Ukraine is a special case since it's also a geopolitical issue between Europe and Russia.

C9H20 07-15-2013 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobLore (Post 910572)
Thing is countries being integrated into the EU don't get most of the benefits with the membership, they get most of the benefits in the process to get that membership. That process includes requirements for market reforms and democratisation. It is these incentives that benefit countries in eastern Europe and the Balkans the most.

Now Ukraine is a special case since it's also a geopolitical issue between Europe and Russia.

I feel confident we can figure the democracy thing out on our own without EU help, thanks.

Shaman 07-15-2013 11:55 AM

I love that travelling is so easy between most European states.

Torch 07-15-2013 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarahmoo (Post 910691)
I love that travelling is so easy between most European states.

What's the matter, don't like Rectal examinations for FREEDOM!?

Kir the Wizard 07-15-2013 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by C9H20 (Post 910685)
I feel confident we can figure the democracy thing out on our own without EU help, thanks.

This is another outrageous thing. What right does the EU have to "judge" who is "democratic enough"? How is it judged at all?

If anything, most of our problems come from corruption, which influences all spheres legal and economic, not from the actual problems with the democratic process itself.

Noitora 07-15-2013 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torch (Post 910712)
What's the matter, don't like Rectal examinations for FREEDOM!?

Hey it's good for the prostate.

C9H20 07-15-2013 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard (Post 910713)
This is another outrageous thing. What right does the EU have to "judge" who is "democratic enough"? How is it judged at all?

If anything, most of our problems come from corruption, which influences all spheres legal and economic, not from the actual problems with the democratic process itself.

Well I was mostly snarking Rob for giving off that "EU will shine the way for you backwards people" vibe.

They haven't been telling us "you're not democratic enough" but mostly giving us crap about Kosovo, international court of [in]justice and to fix our corruption issues.
Generally speaking just about everyone here feels the EU has become the carrot and the stick routine, except the carrot is imaginary.

Kir the Wizard 07-15-2013 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by C9H20 (Post 910780)
Well I was mostly snarking Rob for giving off that "EU will shine the way for you backwards people" vibe.

They haven't been telling us "you're not democratic enough" but mostly giving us crap about Kosovo, international court of [in]justice and to fix our corruption issues.
Generally speaking just about everyone here feels the EU has become the carrot and the stick routine, except the carrot is imaginary.

I thought they owed you the entry because of the whole Kosovo crisis, as a consolation prize? Or was it only about the Association Agreement?

C9H20 07-15-2013 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard (Post 910785)
I thought they owed you the entry because of the whole Kosovo crisis, as a consolation prize? Or was it only about the Association Agreement?

Well we are supposed to begin the joining process (now that Kosovo has been given up, effectively) but until I see tangible improvements it is all just smoke and mirrors to me.

And I don't even expect improvements. Really I have considered all geo-political factors and realized we are boned either way, it is simply a bad century to be Serb.
That is why I have sworn off politics, thinking about all that stuff is just too depressing.

Pixy 07-15-2013 02:00 PM

Personally I see the EU crumbling and being replaced by something else. It's just way too unstable to keep going on at this pace.

neoshadow 07-15-2013 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pixy (Post 910798)
Personally I see the EU crumbling and being replaced by something else. It's just way too unstable to keep going on at this pace.

siege of eu . It`ll be fun.

SmokeBlader 07-15-2013 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pixy (Post 910798)
Personally I see the EU crumbling and being replaced by something else.

Communism!

PajamaSalad 07-15-2013 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmokeBlader (Post 910846)
Communism!

Not that!

Lord Eliphas 07-15-2013 02:51 PM

Eliphaism

Ma Caque Attaque 07-15-2013 03:47 PM

Perhaps the most important thing you can do in Europe:

http://flowingdata.com/2013/07/08/ma...beer-in-europe.

http://flowingdata.com/wp-content/up...p1-625x440.png

Ashendant 07-15-2013 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard (Post 910542)
It seemed like we were making some progress when Yushchenko was acting oh-so-sycophantingly to it, but now that Poland shifted it's attitude towards Ukraine from "best friends forever" to "MONSTERS who must publicly apologize for their wrongdoings against the great Polish people"... We weren't exactly getting any good rep.

Actually from what I saw Poland was pretty lenient, they purposely changed the phrasing so it's a lot less hard on Ukraine and doesn't disturb their chances of getting in the EU.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobLore (Post 910572)
Thing is countries being integrated into the EU don't get most of the benefits with the membership, they get most of the benefits in the process to get that membership. That process includes requirements for market reforms and democratisation. It is these incentives that benefit countries in eastern Europe and the Balkans the most.

Now Ukraine is a special case since it's also a geopolitical issue between Europe and Russia.

I can at least guarantee that ecological benefits are pretty visible. And the roaming charges should be going down too. And a bunch of other benefits

Lord Eliphas 07-15-2013 05:12 PM

I'd more so say the Ukrainian government doesn't need to make the OUN heroes. Especially considering their war and post-war activities..

C9H20 07-15-2013 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ma Caque Attaque (Post 910927)

You're awesome dude.

Added to my list of m8s.

Kir the Wizard 07-16-2013 02:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Eliphas (Post 911031)
I'd more so say the Ukrainian government doesn't need to make the OUN heroes. Especially considering their war and post-war activities..

The thing is, that's our own problem to decide. We don't come to Poland, or Lithuania, or Estonia and criticize anyone for choosing to uphold the guy that "we" don't like.

Ashendant 07-16-2013 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard (Post 911470)
The thing is, that's our own problem to decide. We don't come to Poland, or Lithuania, or Estonia and criticize anyone for choosing to uphold the guy that "we" don't like.

Not really if Poland, Lithuania or Estonia were the victims.

Kir the Wizard 07-16-2013 02:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ashendant (Post 911479)
Not really if Poland, Lithuania or Estonia were the victims.

Our people in Volhynia, Western and Eastern Galicia too were the victims of AK and the Polish "Self-Defense of the Eastern Lands", who are hailed as Poland's main WW2 "heroes" (while here in Ukraine OUN are barely making it to the recognition by anyone aside from the most hardcore nationalists, and the Red Army soldiers are still "the main" group of veterans).

Yet we don't talk about how "unworthy" Poland is to be a EU member because of their history.

And Estonia glorifies Waffen-SS parades for Christ's sake!


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