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Kir the Wizard 10-07-2012 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jungleluke (Post 567474)
Oh ok, sorry man:( I didn't know that Spain was THAT corrupt, but European Union guys are inspecting you, aren't they? So they keep a close eye on the finances etc.?

Corrupted politicians can always corrupt any inspectors they want. It is the circle of corruption that is hard to break.

When you are throwing money at countries, you are just blindly giving them into the hands of the elite that went into politics to get rich on all sorts of corruption and money-grabbing from the state budget.

Lon-ami 10-07-2012 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jungleluke (Post 567474)
Oh ok, sorry man:( I didn't know that Spain was THAT corrupt, but European Union guys are inspecting you, aren't they? So they keep a close eye on the finances etc.?

They do an awful poor job! Seriously, I don't understand it. Maybe they're a bunch of blind idiots. Maybe they're corrupt, too, and get some kind of benefit. Maybe they are a bunch of cowards. Maybe they're just interested on keeping us paying debt forever.

Our autonomous communities (short: AC) system is like taking your country, and then cloning it for every single autonomous country. It's 17 of them here. You have duplicities fucking everywhere.

In fact, health would become 50% cheaper if it was 100% controlled by the central government, and not by the autonomous communities like it is now. Most of our problems would be fixed if they did that! But no one here wants to do it, because guess what, all their friends have jobs thanks to this.

Same for banks. All the banks giving problems now are former small savings banks that merged with each other. These were created by the politicians in each AC, and they're full of them. Competent guy in charge? I'm sorry, we only have these 20 politicians on the bank council. Oh, then we find they wasted money on bullshit, suspiciously aimed at getting votes, instead of actually trying to be productive. But the joke gets bigger! Once they merged, they fired a lot of personal, of course, but the councilmen are still there, all of them from all the former saving banks. And of course, they get paid ridiculous amounts of money.

The public administration is a goddamn joke, where politicians create useless public companies so they put their friends and families inside. From "we make really expensive suggestion informs" to "we buy presents to promote culture".

The film industry, for example, is full of shit. The state gives tons of millions away, and then 90% of the films never see the light. Some directors denounced their films got raped by the production companies, to then be aired on 1 unknown cinema where 20 tickets were sold. Of course, the entire industry supports politicians pretty well all the time.

The problem of this country is we waste money on tons of shit. And Europe hasn't said A SINGLE WORD about actually stopping to waste that money. And most of the money Europe gives us goes into that wastehole, too.

And some places, like Andalusia or Valencia, have so many useless and redundant public companies with a ton of people working on them, it's no wonder they get voted all the time.

But yeah, it's easier and funnier to say Spaniards are lazy fucks on permanent vacation. Lot of resignation, maybe, but the problem on this country is politicians. Remember when the European parliament discussed removing first class plane flying, and there was this outrage because all of them were against removing their own privileges? Here, it's like this, daily.

It's going to take a lot of time, 4-8 years, for the new parties to have real power, parties made mostly by people wanting to remove all of this. So you'll be throwing your money away for a lot of time, while perpetuating the agony and people's resignation.

Seriously, you need to check what's going on with people you give your money to. I'm sure similar stuff is going on with Greece, Italy and friends, but not as shamelessly.

PS: No sorries needed, I just get angry. I read an article some time ago about a guy telling to some europarlament guys what the autonomous community were about, and none of them did know, and were like "wtf no way". Yeah, great.

Kir the Wizard 10-07-2012 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lon-ami (Post 567488)
They do an awful poor job! Seriously, I don't understand it. Maybe they're a bunch of blind idiots. Maybe they're corrupt, too, and get some kind of benefit.

This.

A person will care less about some other country's problems if they get money to keep it shut.

Jungleluke 10-07-2012 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard (Post 567492)
This.

A person will care less about some other country's problems if they get money to keep it shut.

The Netherlands corrupt?:raisedbro That's very unlikely.

HlaaluStyle 10-07-2012 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lon-ami (Post 567473)
I already said this tons of times in this very thread: Are you really that stupid to believe things get solved by throwing money at it?

I'll give you an extreme example: your typical African country in war. So, you want to help population get food, and give money to the government. Are you really that dumb to think it's going to be spent properly?

It's just the same here. We're screwed because of political corruption, and you're giving money to those politicians that ruined us in the first place. You're a bunch of FUCKING IDIOTS. In fact, I would prefer if you gave us no money at all. By doing this, you're just giving us more problems, because the money you give us isn't used properly. In the end, it's just more debt for us, and nothing else.

Why do you think that people is protesting? Because they have no jobs, they can't pay their mortgages and taxes keep going up, while politicians have 1 official car for each of them. In fact, if we didn't have such high numbers of submerged economy, politician heads would be on spikes already.

But yeah, keep asking to improve deficit by ruining our already ruined health and education, instead of asking to fix our broken autonomous community system, or asking to close all the public TVs each region has (Catalonia, asking 5kk help, has 7) that are pure manipulated garbage no one watches, or asking anything useful at all.

With half the population of Germany, we have double the politicians. So yeah, keep giving us money without trying to change this, and then get surprised when it doesn't work.

Wow, sounds a bit like California.

Lon-ami 10-07-2012 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard (Post 567492)
This.

A person will care less about some other country's problems if they get money to keep it shut.

After some the news coming from USA, I really start to think we're just being used for profit. NY Times showing poor people taking food from containers? What the hell is this shit? Or supporting "Spain robs us" nationalism complaints, when checking public numbers outright shows how big of a lie that is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jungleluke (Post 567494)
The Netherlands corrupt?:raisedbro That's very unlikely.

Then you're either blind, or you benefit in some way.

For example, Germany's complaining about giving too much money all the time, but they never mention how their public debt is being sold at its cheapest since ever.

It's going to backfire them, though. The rest of Europe is a big % of their market, and they won't keep buying their cars and techstuff if they're ruined.

Jungleluke 10-07-2012 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lon-ami (Post 567498)
After some the news coming from USA, I really start to think we're just being used for profit. NY Times showing poor people taking food from containers? What the hell is this shit? Or supporting "Spain robs us" nationalism complaints, when checking public numbers outright shows how big of a lie that is.

But how could this shit have come so far?

Kir the Wizard 10-07-2012 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lon-ami (Post 567498)
After some the news coming from USA, I really start to think we're just being used for profit. NY Times showing poor people taking food from containers? What the hell is this shit? Or supporting "Spain robs us" nationalism complaints, when checking public numbers outright shows how big of a lie that is.

It's a wonder how much will people believe something when it is shown on TV.

And you can make everything "sort of true" when filming in the right places.

Jungleluke 10-07-2012 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard (Post 567504)
It's a wonder how much will people believe something when it is shown on TV.

And you can make everything "sort of true" when filming in the right places.

Some people there believe everything that is said to them and don't check the facts. People over the whole world are being 'infected' with this.

HlaaluStyle 10-07-2012 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard (Post 567487)
Corrupted politicians can always corrupt any inspectors they want. It is the circle of corruption that is hard to break.

When you are throwing money at countries, you are just blindly giving them into the hands of the elite that went into politics to get rich on all sorts of corruption and money-grabbing from the state budget.

Dambisa Moyo made a pretty similar argument about the problems international aid has in helping Africa. The money ends up in the hands of elites who have very little desire to fix the problem.

Granted, Moyo did cite Wikipedia as a source in her published book, Dead Aid, but based on some of the classes I took in my MA program, there's at least some truth to her argument.

(And I'm not ragging on Wikipedia here; I love it, but it's not the best thing to cite if you want to be taken seriously).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jungleluke (Post 567505)
Some people there believe everything that is said to them and don't check the facts. People over the whole world are being 'infected' with this.

It's really nothing new. The only difference is that now it's a bit easier to check the facts (though the sheer glut of information can make it extraordinarily difficult to find out what's true).

Lon-ami 10-07-2012 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jungleluke (Post 567499)
But how could this shit have come so far?

-1: People has money problems, but implying a huge number is foodless is an outright lie. Submerged economy and families getting back together prevents this. Only those who were already poor or the ones who were in a very bad situation have those kind of problems, but then there's a lot of NGOs and donations taking care of the situation.

-2: Our nationalisms don't want independence (except your typical brainwashed idiot). Their claims are an outright blackmail for more power, less taxes, etc, but they want to be part of Spain to parasite it. It's autonomous communities carried to the extreme. Worst part is it's anti-European. How can this be tolerated when we're supposed to get closer to each other on EU-level? Also, Catalonia said they wouldn't cut anything ordered by Spain, when Spain is giving them money they need, money EU is ordering cuts for. In the end, the rest of Spain will probably suffer, while Catalonia gets benefits. And yeah, then they're the victims. Basque Country, for example, goes further, and has some kind of fiscal regime, that makes them pay less than anyone else, just because "crappy medieval excuse". The big parties bought nationalist support with these shits.

Kir the Wizard 10-07-2012 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jungleluke (Post 567505)
Some people there believe everything that is said to them and don't check the facts. People over the whole world are being 'infected' with this.

Mah boi, we live in a world of free information from many, many sources. This is not Stalinism, where a citizen's only source of information on politics was the gazette "Pravda" (the Truth). :P

HlaaluStyle 10-07-2012 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard (Post 567509)
Mah boi, we live in a world of free information from many, many sources. This is not Stalinism, where a citizen's only source of information on politics was the gazette "Pravda" (the Truth). :P

No truth in Investia, no news in Pravda?

Jungleluke 10-07-2012 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard (Post 567509)
Mah boi, we live in a world of free information from many, many sources. This is not Stalinism, where a citizen's only source of information on politics was the gazette "Pravda" (the Truth). :P

Look at Rick Santorum, he thought that all elderly people in the Netherlands get euthanized and you know what? PEOPLE BELIEVED HIM AND WERE SHOCKED!

SmokeBlader 10-07-2012 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jungleluke (Post 567514)
Look at Rick Santorum, he thought that all elderly people in the Netherlands get euthanized and you know what? PEOPLE BELIEVED HIM AND WERE SHOCKED!

Hey, many people think Europe is a country in USA. And Canada is a state.

Ashendant 10-07-2012 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lon-ami (Post 567508)
-2: Our nationalisms don't want independence (except your typical brainwashed idiot). Their claims are an outright blackmail for more power, less taxes, etc, but they want to be part of Spain to parasite it. It's autonomous communities carried to the extreme. Worst part is it's anti-European. How can this be tolerated when we're supposed to get closer to each other on EU-level? Also, Catalonia said they wouldn't cut anything ordered by Spain, when Spain is giving them money they need, money EU is ordering cuts for. In the end, the rest of Spain will probably suffer, while Catalonia gets benefits. And yeah, then they're the victims. Basque Country, for example, goes further, and has some kind of fiscal regime, that makes them pay less than anyone else, just because "crappy medieval excuse". The big parties bought nationalist support with these shits.

"medieval excuse"? can you tell me what it is? It's probably ridiculous reason.

Kir the Wizard 10-07-2012 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ashendant (Post 567546)
"medieval excuse"? can you tell me what it is? It's probably ridiculous reason.

You know, Crown of Aragon being separate from Castille-Leon?

Jungleluke 10-07-2012 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmokeBlader (Post 567533)
Hey, many people think Europe is a country in USA. And Canada is a state.

Are you serious?

Anansi 10-07-2012 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jungleluke (Post 567550)
Are you serious?

I think he's taking advantage of your own gullibility to make a cruel but effective point.

Lon-ami 10-07-2012 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ashendant (Post 567546)
"medieval excuse"? can you tell me what it is? It's probably ridiculous reason.

Special temporal treatment of some sorts to the Kingdom of Navarra.

Retarded shit that shouldn't matter in the 21st century.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard (Post 567549)
You know, Crown of Aragon being separate from Castille-Leon?

I was speaking about the Basque Country. Crown of Aragon never had anything special.

Kir the Wizard 10-07-2012 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lon-ami (Post 567552)
I was speaking about the Basque Country. Crown of Aragon never had anything special.

Ah, my mistake.

But by that logic, how does Navarra having an independent kingdom sometime in medieval differs from Aragon having an independent kingdom sometime in medieval? Both were independent before family union.

Jungleluke 10-07-2012 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archimedes (Post 567551)
I think he's taking advantage of your own gullibility to make a cruel but effective point.

Okey, my limited knowledge of English just came into play. What did you just say?

Lon-ami 10-07-2012 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard (Post 567558)
Ah, my mistake.

But by that logic, how does Navarra having an independent kingdom sometime in medieval differs from Aragon having an independent kingdom sometime in medieval? Both were independent before family union.

What I said above. They received some kind of special treatment, so they did some things on their own and then give the result.

It's long to explain, but it's not necessary for the topic. The thing is it's illogical to have privileges now just because your long-dead ancestors had. Less considering we're a democracy, and some citizens having more rights than others just because of location isn't fair. Just like colonies and all the rest of old models, they don't belong in this age anymore.

Ganishka 10-07-2012 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jungleluke (Post 567559)
Okey, my limited knowledge of English just came into play. What did you just say?

He said you are easily fooled.

Jungleluke 10-07-2012 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ganishka (Post 567562)
He said you are easily fooled.

Ah, thank you for explaining.:kawaii:


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