Scrolls of Lore Forums

Scrolls of Lore Forums (http://forums.scrollsoflore.com/index.php)
-   General Discussion (http://forums.scrollsoflore.com/forumdisplay.php?f=2)
-   -   Wisconsin Protests: State Police Pursue Democratic Lawmakers Boycotting Vote (http://forums.scrollsoflore.com/showthread.php?t=9852)

Ashendant 02-18-2011 06:44 PM

Wisconsin Protests: State Police Pursue Democratic Lawmakers Boycotting Vote
 
Oh this will not end, or maybe it will

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXYSr...mbedded#at=308

Bolvar 02-19-2011 09:26 AM

It's absurd.

The concessions they're asking the unions to make with regards to paying a small portion of the cost of their pension and medical benefits will still make their overall benefits package the envy of anyone in the private sector.

Public servants don't deserve to live like kings at taxpayer expense.

But, all you hear is the screaming about how the evil republicans want to take food off the table of poor teachers.

The average teacher in Madison, Wisconsin makes over $100,000 a year.

That's about three times what my sister makes as a teacher here in Arizona.

Maybe my sister is a little underpaid. But 100k is DEFINITELY overpaid.

jjstraka 02-19-2011 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bolvar (Post 263228)
It's absurd.

The concessions they're asking the unions to make with regards to paying a small portion of the cost of their pension and medical benefits will still make their overall benefits package the envy of anyone in the private sector.

Public servants don't deserve to live like kings at taxpayer expense.

But, all you hear is the screaming about how the evil republicans want to take food off the table of poor teachers.

The average teacher in Madison, Wisconsin makes over $100,000 a year.

That's about three times what my sister makes as a teacher here in Arizona.

Maybe my sister is a little underpaid. But 100k is DEFINITELY overpaid.

Average salary is $51,000 a year. And this isn't even ABOUT the concessions. They have already indicated they would be willing to live with almost all of them. Walker is trying to strip them of all their collective bargaining rights. That is what this is about. And in a world were corporations are now afforded the same rights as people, the same legal standard shoud apply to unions as well, or the individual will be smothered.

Ashendant 02-19-2011 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjstraka (Post 263236)
Average salary is $51,000 a year. And this isn't even ABOUT the concessions. They have already indicated they would be willing to live with almost all of them. Walker is trying to strip them of all their collective bargaining rights. That is what this is about. And in a world were corporations are now afforded the same rights as people, the same legal standard shoud apply to unions as well, or the individual will be smothered.

This^

jjstraka 02-19-2011 02:45 PM

And not only that, but Walker is the one who CREATED the budget shortfall in the first place. 137 million of the 140 million budget shortfall is the direct result of his corporate welfare tax giveaways. He did it on purpose, and then used it as a pre-text to dismantle the public unions. Fuck him, seriously. I hope this proto-fascist gets recalled as soon as possible (which is after he has been in office for a year). I also find it funny that the unions that he is targeting are more likely to be staffed by women than the ones he exempted (police and firefighters). And even they are standing with the activists.

Bolvar 02-22-2011 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjstraka (Post 263236)
Average salary is $51,000 a year. And this isn't even ABOUT the concessions. They have already indicated they would be willing to live with almost all of them. Walker is trying to strip them of all their collective bargaining rights. That is what this is about. And in a world were corporations are now afforded the same rights as people, the same legal standard shoud apply to unions as well, or the individual will be smothered.

That's not what I read. And even if I concede your $51k average, it's high.

You're reading nothing but leftist propaganda, as usual, and regurgitating the same.

Unions are dog-shit for the economy, and they suck for their workers, and that's a fact. If you pay union dues, you're a fucking moron. You're way better off WITHOUT collective bargaining. Federal labor laws provide all the protection you need.

Omacron 02-22-2011 08:12 AM

Unions served a purpose in the early days of industrialization and such, but now they've really become extensively bloated and inefficient, really focused more on the comfort of its members rather than doing their jobs. A lot of unions (I wouldn't say all, because I don't know about every single union) need to be stripped bare, reworked or otherwise abolished. Again, I'm a nominal "New York Liberal", but that's actually one of the reasons why I dislike unions: because my morning commute is shitty in part due to the Metropolitan Transit Workers' Union.

Bolvar 02-22-2011 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omacron (Post 263587)
Unions served a purpose in the early days of industrialization and such, but now they've really become extensively bloated and inefficient, really focused more on the comfort of its members rather than doing their jobs. A lot of unions (I wouldn't say all, because I don't know about every single union) need to be stripped bare, reworked or otherwise abolished. Again, I'm a nominal "New York Liberal", but that's actually one of the reasons why I dislike unions: because my morning commute is shitty in part due to the Metropolitan Transit Workers' Union.

Yeah, you said it better than I did.

I've worked at several companies that have been partly unionized, and have a few relatives who pay union dues.

They don't get a damned thing for their money. The union bosses get fat taking a cut of your check, they don't "collectively bargain" for anything you can't get on your own, and they don't do shit for you when you really need help.

Ashendant 02-22-2011 08:48 AM

i support unions as much i support lobbylists, they are good to the market, the government and society, to a point where they become hopelessly corrupt and self-destructive to all 3 i mentioned.

jjstraka 02-22-2011 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omacron (Post 263587)
Unions served a purpose in the early days of industrialization and such, but now they've really become extensively bloated and inefficient, really focused more on the comfort of its members rather than doing their jobs. A lot of unions (I wouldn't say all, because I don't know about every single union) need to be stripped bare, reworked or otherwise abolished. Again, I'm a nominal "New York Liberal", but that's actually one of the reasons why I dislike unions: because my morning commute is shitty in part due to the Metropolitan Transit Workers' Union.

Really, Unions need to be abolished?? Under what legal precedent exactly?? The Supreme Court's Citizens United ruling gave corporations the same rights as citizens and now allows them to spend UNLIMITED amounts of money to influence political campaigns. The unions wisely incorporated to counter this. This ruling is a darling of the right-wing, but they only want it to apply to the corporations, not unions. Tough shit on that one, if the oligarchs are playing this game then the unions can play by the same rules. For christ sake, there are Republican's in the Missouri House that want to abolish child labor laws.

And Bolvar, I will say again, the unions have come out and said that they are willing to accept every single, solitary bit of Walker's cuts. All of them. And yet he is still insisting on stripping them of their collective bargaining rights. Why?? Because this isn't about the budget. The Wisconsin budget had a surplus when Walker came in. What did he do?? He immediately passed over $130 million dollars in corporate tax breaks (responsible for 90% of the "defecit") and then declared a budgetary emergency that he created on purpose, and then decides that this would be a good time to make teachers and prison guards take a benefits cut. So scum like the Koch brothers can buy another vacation home. This has nothing to do with the budget, it has everything to do with destroying the middle-class. I love how he says that "He stands with the taxpayers of Wisconsin over the unions." I must have missed the part where union members don't pay state taxes in Wisconsin.

Bolvar 02-22-2011 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjstraka (Post 263611)
Really, Unions need to be abolished?? Under what legal precedent exactly?? The Supreme Court's Citizens United ruling gave corporations the same rights as citizens and now allows them to spend UNLIMITED amounts of money to influence political campaigns. The unions wisely incorporated to counter this. This ruling is a darling of the right-wing, but they only want it to apply to the corporations, not unions. Tough shit on that one, if the oligarchs are playing this game then the unions can play by the same rules. For christ sake, there are Republican's in the Missouri House that want to abolish child labor laws.

And Bolvar, I will say again, the unions have come out and said that they are willing to accept every single, solitary bit of Walker's cuts. All of them. And yet he is still insisting on stripping them of their collective bargaining rights. Why?? Because this isn't about the budget. The Wisconsin budget had a surplus when Walker came in. What did he do?? He immediately passed over $130 million dollars in corporate tax breaks (responsible for 90% of the "defecit") and then declared a budgetary emergency that he created on purpose, and then decides that this would be a good time to make teachers and prison guards take a benefits cut. So scum like the Koch brothers can buy another vacation home. This has nothing to do with the budget, it has everything to do with destroying the middle-class. I love how he says that "He stands with the taxpayers of Wisconsin over the unions." I must have missed the part where union members don't pay state taxes in Wisconsin.

It's cute how you think the conservative Koch brothers are the only corporate "scum" in this country.

Liberal corporate jackwagons far outnumber their conservative brethren. By a wide margin.

I find it funny that you say Walker had a surplus, and then lost it.

He took office less than two months ago. I mean, now you're literally just pulling shit out of your ass.

Ashendant 02-22-2011 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bolvar (Post 263615)
It's cute how you think the conservative Koch brothers are the only corporate "scum" in this country.

Liberal corporate jackwagons far outnumber their conservative brethren. By a wide margin.

I find it funny that you say Walker had a surplus, and then lost it.

He took office less than two months ago. I mean, now you're literally just pulling shit out of your ass.

There are no liberal parties in america

Bolvar 02-22-2011 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ashendant (Post 263617)
There are no liberal parties in america

Only in your world is Nancy Pelosi not liberal enough to be called liberal.

Lon-ami 02-22-2011 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bolvar (Post 263619)
Only in your world is Nancy Pelosi not liberal enough to be called liberal.

You should look at other countries for a while, and see real leftists and real liberals.

USA is a heaven compared to the hells other countries have, trust me.

Omacron 02-22-2011 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bolvar (Post 263619)
Only in your world is Nancy Pelosi not liberal enough to be called liberal.

To be fair, Liberals in America are further right than liberals pretty much everywhere else. They'd be centrists.

Really, his world is "most of the world" and America is in a bit of a political bubble with everything shifted towards the right.

Ashendant 02-22-2011 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lon-ami (Post 263620)
You should look at other countries for a while, and see real leftists and real liberals.

USA is a heaven compared to the hells other countries have, trust me.

What type of heaven, the one where they keep me facepalm due to extremist conservationism, or the one that has the highest amount of serial killers in the world?

Bolvar 02-22-2011 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omacron (Post 263622)
To be fair, Liberals in America are further right than liberals pretty much everywhere else. They'd be centrists.

Really, his world is "most of the world" and America is in a bit of a political bubble with everything shifted towards the right.

You guys all talk like I've never set foot outside the United States, and like I don't routinely interact with people from over a dozen other nations on a daily basis.

Just because the likes of Pelosi and Obama haven't achieved total success doesn't mean they aren't flaming leftist liberals.

If they had their way, they'd legalize everything from hard drugs to marriage with sheep.

Omacron 02-22-2011 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ashendant (Post 263625)
What type of heaven, the one where they keep me facepalm due to extremist conservationism, or the one that has the highest amount of serial killers in the world?

How about the one with a functioning democracy and a standard of living high enough that the people don't starve or have to kill eachother to survive?

Because, you know, there are very few countries that fit those parameters and you should be thankful you live in one that falls under them. If you want to start facepalming, go to Sudan and get shot in the head by a 10 year old child soldier.

Lon-ami 02-22-2011 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ashendant (Post 263625)
What type of heaven, the one where they keep me facepalm due to extremist conservationism, or the one that has the highest amount of serial killers in the world?

It was an exxageration in terms of "oh noes communists are gonna kill us!" genral USA paranoia. They don't have any left at all and no matter that they see leftists everywhere.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omacron (Post 263628)
How about the one with a functioning democracy and a standard of living high enough that the people don't starve or have to kill eachother to survive?

Because, you know, there are very few countries that fit those parameters and you should be thankful you live in one that falls under them. If you want to start facepalming, go to Sudan and get shot in the head by a 10 year old child soldier.

Others' disgrace doesn't make your disgraces less disgrace.

Bolvar 02-22-2011 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omacron (Post 263628)
How about the one with a functioning democracy and a standard of living high enough that the people don't starve or have to kill eachother to survive?

Because, you know, there are very few countries that fit those parameters and you should be thankful you live in one that falls under them. If you want to start facepalming, go to Sudan and get shot in the head by a 10 year old child soldier.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHn1zogeyO4

Ashendant 02-22-2011 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omacron (Post 263628)
How about the one with a functioning democracy and a standard of living high enough that the people don't starve or have to kill eachother to survive?

Because, you know, there are very few countries that fit those parameters and you should be thankful you live in one that falls under them. If you want to start facepalming, go to Sudan and get shot in the head by a 10 year old child soldier.

You overreacted, i was speaking in terms of developed countries, but it's entirely my fault for not mentioning that

Vil'rexin 02-22-2011 12:21 PM

Mmmm so much delicious American hatred! I'm not sure about Ash but at least Lon has stated it's just the government he has the biggest issue with. Anyhow, in this period of time, America just happens to be "that" country, the world's police. Others have had their time in the past (Britain, France, Rome, Egypt, and yes, even Spain) and one notices how much more bold and aggressive they are when they are at the top. You don't think for a second that Spain, Portugal, even some random country like Sudan would play more boldly if they had the same resources and manpower that the US has at the current moment? It's simply a matter of when to step up to the bat and when to just sit in the dugout and wait your turn.

Original topic: Unions were excellent and served a great purpose many years ago but now they need to be "restructured" like Omacron said.

Ashendant 02-22-2011 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kasarax (Post 263669)
Mmmm so much delicious American hatred! I'm not sure about Ash but at least Lon has stated it's just the government he has the biggest issue with. Anyhow, in this period of time, America just happens to be "that" country, the world's police. Others have had their time in the past (Britain, France, Rome, Egypt, and yes, even Spain) and one notices how much more bold and aggressive they are when they are at the top. You don't think for a second that Spain, Portugal, even some random country like Sudan would play more boldly if they had the same resources and manpower that the US has at the current moment? It's simply a matter of when to step up to the bat and when to just sit in the dugout and wait your turn.

Original topic: Unions were excellent and served a great purpose many years ago but now they need to be "restructured" like Omacron said.

My country was once in that position, and i facepalm most actions after the initial powergrab

Bolvar 02-22-2011 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ashendant (Post 263675)
My country was once in that position, and i facepalm most actions after the initial powergrab

This I believe.

Even in America, the Liberals hate their own country for being awesome.

Omacron 02-22-2011 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bolvar (Post 263687)
This I believe.

Even in America, the Liberals hate their own country for being awesome.

I just hate America for being full of people.


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:40 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.