Scrolls of Lore Forums

Scrolls of Lore Forums (http://forums.scrollsoflore.com/index.php)
-   WarCraft Lore Discussion (http://forums.scrollsoflore.com/forumdisplay.php?f=8)
-   -   There Is Something Fundamentally Broken About Night Elves (http://forums.scrollsoflore.com/showthread.php?t=221337)

Noitora 11-08-2017 07:23 AM

There Is Something Fundamentally Broken About Night Elves
 
Warning! Warning! Warning! Warning! Warning! Warning! Warning! Warning!

New expansion spoilers





One of the first things we learn about the new expansion is how the Night Elves lose control of Kalimdor. It goes as far as Teldrassil being burned. While this is a major blow to Night Elf fans, it worries me that they aren’t mentioned in the upcoming faction war.

Yes, we don’t know the full story, or what happens in the future, but it’s fair to say that night elves should be at the front of this story after having suffered such an unprecedented loss. There’s also Tyrande, and even Malfurion. Both so far, aren’t mentioned in the upcoming expansion. Again, they could be involved, but don’t appear to be the narrative focus unlike the other leaders.

Most can agree that the elves have been written poorly. Many will also wish for them to return to their Warcraft 3 roots. I personally don’t want that. They moved on from that story for a reason, and I believe that backtracking is bad for WoW. What I want for them is to have a narrative direction. Problem right now is that they don’t.

For a race that is usually the victim of some attack, the elves don’t get to respond in any major way. The cataclysm, the war in Ashenvale, and now this. Elves aren’t made to react, just to suffer. This is upsetting, for a race whose major theme in wc3 was to change from their past lives.

I’m cautiously optimistic about the next expansion. Despite the faction war, there are new things to enjoy about it. I hope the night elves will be one of them.

Sacredless 11-08-2017 08:06 AM

This is why I hope that night elves are the ones who spark the war. I want them to be proactive. To take the initiative after such a long time of being reactive and defensive. Maybe there's an orc ship that got lost on their water and they see it as a provocation enough to begin a war over. Maybe they just heard that Sylvanas was in Orgimmar and they take the initiative.

There are no Alliance leaders who'd undermine Anduin except for Tyrande.

Bolvar 11-08-2017 08:12 AM

Night Elves peaked with the Mohawk class, and it's all been downhill from there.

Shekinah 11-08-2017 08:22 AM

I'm just plain ol' cautious about the next expac. I was the same way with Legion, and I didn't expect it to be as good as it was (7.2 aside). But I think night elves are meant to suffer because of their haughty nature, immortality, their previous queen... never mind that they lost that immortality, are humble enough to accept worgen into their lands, and haven't had a monarchy for over ten thousand years.

It's a very annoying trope. The "age-old race of wise people need to be served humble pie by humans" comes up in fantasy and sci-fi way too fucking often.

Icefrost 11-08-2017 08:24 AM

Not seeing the surprise here, other than the kick to their teeth being the biggest one in the history of WoW (not counting 10,000 year old stuff here).

They're the same inactive bag'o beans getting thrown around like always, with the writers vehemently, actively refusing to do anything with them other than portraying them as the humans' token archery squad and making endless excuses why everyone else is using arts and techniques that should've been their specialty and beating them over the head with 'em.

They are the new human-sidekick elves, the closest thing to the alliance having high elves again (unless you're into them voidthings, in which case I guess you got served double, congratz), as per the request of many. Soon complete with their own highborne magic town somewhere in the ass end of the EK, paying the human king's taxes for the rest of their lives.

The audience asked for a Tyrande scene and we got A Little patience.
The audience asked for high elves and we got this.
Meanwhile me and like-minded folks lost every reason to care about warcraft ever again.

Thalassian elves, highborne, magic dominated races - these were always my least favourite and most hated things about warcraft.
The last week has reminded me why.

They're either always the enemy, or they're an excuse to take away all nice things from certain other fans.

Kyalin V. Raintree 11-08-2017 08:35 AM

I will reply to this more in depth later this evening when I am in a better position to do so.

In the meantime, your optimism is adorable, but misguided. When viewing the long trend of Night Elf post WC3 lore, there is no reason for that optimism.

That's why, if you are a Night Elf fan, and you are still paying Blizzard to do this to you, you should stop doing that today.

Icefrost 11-08-2017 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree (Post 1610096)
That's why, if you are a Night Elf fan, and you are still paying Blizzard to do this to you, you should stop doing that today.

I guess now would be a good time to finally tell you that I for one stopped doing it after the lich king fell. Cata was next on the line after all, and I figured Kalimdor wasn't big enough for me and those users of the forbidden(for a god damn good reason, goddamnit!) arts who got pardoned and allowed into Ashenvale for no reason I could understand.

See, I'm just here about the fact that I've been following the story from the sidelines, except that after the next upcoming fiasco, there's evidently going to be jack shit left to read about at all.

BaronGrackle 11-08-2017 10:02 AM

(Incidentally, I still lack the motivation to go back and finish WCIII Night Elf run through its expansion because the back-to-back slog of Night Elf campaigning from the end of RoC to the start of FT is just so long. I stopped after the Tomb of Sargeras levels because I looked ahead and there was so much more.)

It's amazing how, for a very tiny moment in the franchise's history, they came out of nowhere and became arguably the most important race ever. Then, after their shooting star passed, Blizzard went to work dismantling their significance.

Icefrost 11-08-2017 10:13 AM

Gracious thanks to Grackle for making me not have to long-ass-edit-in or doublepost a thought I had in the other Battle for Azeroth thread that I want to copypaste here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Icefrost
Quote:

Originally Posted by Aram

the western continent of Kalimdor is entirely under the Horde’s sway

Taken word for word at face value and going wild with it, it occurs to me that there's one other possibility to the night elf conundrum. Enough of a humiliation to them to be believable, given the vector of their story over the years.

I wonder what would happen if Tyrande or Shandris or someone along those lines walked up to Saurfang-look-a-like in those pictures there and said something like "if any of that honor you orcs are always on about holds true, you'll accept our warrior's aid in your battles to come, in exchange for letting us keep what lives and homes we've left. And before you ask - Greymane and his pack were the first to flee from the flames, being less hesitant to take the mages' portals and all that."

Meanwhile, the forsaken could do something similar, after disowning their so-called queen who failed to defend "her" so-called people.

I mean, it can't be a mystery to blizzard that a lot of night elf fans don't actually care about the alliance per se. They just want their night elves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Icefrost
Besides, think about it a second.

Nightborne from legion stuff joining the horde?

Of course they are!

Semi-high elves joining alliance?

Of course they are!

Sociopathic maniac warchief looking like a future raidboss, leaving the question of who shall lead the people of Kalimdor afterward?

What's not to like? And beside the obvious implication, I'd smoke a peace pipe with a Bloodhoof too if it came to that.


BaronGrackle 11-08-2017 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Icefrost (Post 1610122)
Gracious thanks to Grackle for making me not have to long-ass-edit-in or doublepost a thought I had in the other Battle for Azeroth thread that I want to copypaste here:

You're very welcome. Post again now, if you need to.

The Nightelves (and Forsaken) were not made for this two-faction world.

ARM3481 11-08-2017 11:25 AM

Teldrassil stings in particular because it's basically symbolic of what's pretty much guaranteed to happen to the night elves' lands under Horde control.

Give the Horde Kalimdor uncontested, and not only will they deforest and strip mine the hell out of it, but in five years there probably won't be a dryad, keeper or Ancient left alive that hasn't fled to the Emerald Dream. They'll hunt hippogryphs and frostsabers for sport, pollute the lakes and rivers with goblin tech, and wipe out mountain giants as potential threats the same way they did on Draenor.

For all those druids and shamans they have, the Horde very quickly engages in aggressive environmental devastation whenever they take over an unspoiled wilderness.

Mending 11-08-2017 01:03 PM

Time and again, the night elves have been shown to be one of the weakest and most incompetent playable races.

Their druids? One of the most easy to corrupt classes, always in need of saving, and most of them belong to neutral organizations.
Their 10,000+ years worth of military experience? L o l
Their knowledge of ancient magic through the highborne? Easily countered by blood elves and a better version is going to the Horde.
Their technology? Laughable.
Their world tree that was blessed with power from the Titans through the Aspects? Ha.

They're no better than the gnomes and the Darkspear, and to expect them to get justice for their home and people is delusional at this point.

Bolvar 11-08-2017 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mending (Post 1610174)
Time and again, the night elves have been shown to be one of the weakest and most incompetent playable races.

Their druids? One of the most easy to corrupt classes, always in need of saving, and most of them belong to neutral organizations.
Their 10,000+ years worth of military experience? L o l
Their knowledge of ancient magic through the highborne? Easily countered by blood elves and a better version is going to the Horde.
Their technology? Laughable.
Their world tree that was blessed with power from the Titans through the Aspects? Ha.

They're no better than the gnomes and the Darkspear, and to expect them to get justice for their home and people is delusional at this point.


... he's right, you know.

Kyalin V. Raintree 11-08-2017 10:43 PM

My post was destroyed by this website's hyperaggressive logout function.

Yay....

Anyway... the jist of it was that I think that it's silly that Blizzard implies that the Night Elves can't win because they don't progress or adapt while simultaneously refusing to let them progress or adapt.

Technology is one example. Wardens, and then Tyrande, had no problem at all with using goblin land mines in Warcraft 3. Gnomes in Vanilla suggested that the Night Elves could use technology to save their forests. Capitol idea I say. With wisps being able to construct and heal structures and vehicles made from wood, stone, and metal, where do the possibilities end?

It's not as though they have to turn into Europeans to do this either. They draw influences from Korea don't they? Where are my turtle ships? Where are hwatchas? Or why stop there? They need a counter to artillery and demolishers, right? What better way to do that than to extend the volley concept into missiles with katyusha-like pieces?

Wouldn't THIS be fun to throw at the Horde? Conceal a few modified glaive throwers and unleash them at the last second?

Of course it would, but Blizzard wouldn't allow anything like that.... and before I hear excuses for why the Night Elves just can't progress in any way, please consult the following workpaper.

http://i63.tinypic.com/2a76fie.png

So of course it all just leaves the answer that the writers just didn't want to make the Night Elves competent, which leads to the question of "why make them playable at all?" Why cultivate a following? Why get people invested if you're just going to let them down every time? Why put on this façade that it's a fun game for everyone when you're really just redistributing dues from Night Elf players to give to Human fans?

Those questions aside, yes, the Night Elves are fundamentally broken, and have been for a long time - but only because the writers are fundamentally broken, and are, again, people who you should stop giving money to.

Icefrost, I have to commend you for seeing the writing on the wall well before I did. I think your suggested scenario is even more humiliating than whatever we'll get from this expansion, but I do applaud you for not rewarding these people for as long as I unfortunately did.

ARM3481 11-09-2017 12:03 AM

One of the problems night elves' development has is that over the years, WoW has gradually frittered away the detriments of arcane magic, increasingly associating the problems of its addiction and propensity for attracting demons to other, circumstantial causes.

Consequently, with arcane magic losing so much of its inherent associated risks, the Darnassian night elves become the elves who abandoned the strength and conveniences of civilization out of fear of abusing a source of power that has fewer and fewer real drawbacks with every expansion, making them out to be little more than backward savages with inferior magic. Their violence in WC3 used to be prominent for good reason; they'd replaced the vast yet highly self-destructive power they once had in the arcane with the balanced, rejuvenating might and savagery of Nature, be it in their individual viciousness or the magics of their druids.

Unfortunately, one of the exacerbating factors of the shift away from this is the way so many of arcane magic's inherent risks - the physiological addiction, the aggressively mutative symptoms of overindulgence and withdrawal, the attraction of demons from the Nether, etc. - became very specifically attached to elves and then subsequently got "solved." First we got to see the night elves who shunned the arcane join forces with a bunch of Alliance races who tossed it around willy-nilly with no ill effects to themselves (and no constant demonic incursions either, despite the absence of an Order of Tirisfal to clean up such things and keep them hush-hush), making them just the backward primitives of their own faction who stubbornly wouldn't touch arcane magic. Then we got to see the blood elves in TBC, and now the Nightborne in Legion reclaim their arcane legacies with the detrimental strings no longer attached, making the night elves the backward primitives of their own species who stubbornly won't touch arcane magic.

Now we live in an Azeroth where basically as long as you're not already a power-hungry maniac or a recklessly irresponsible person to begin with, the only real danger to using arcane magic turns out to just be not balancing it out with another kind of magic. And it can even be Holy/Light or Nature magic, of all things, both magics of the night elves post-Sundering. In the process of that development unfolding, they've systematically retconned the night elves from a society that became mighty by a different path after learning from the errors and terrible risks of delving into the arcane, into them turning away from the better, more powerful path to embrace a lesser one because they were too stupid to figure out how to make the arcane safe for use. Meanwhile, every other offshoot of their race figures it out in the span of a single expansion and holds onto their newly perfected arcane powers without the nasty drawbacks that originally led the night elves to abandon it.

By in effect liberating the arcane of its built-in hazards, WoW has increasingly changed the portrayal of everything that made the night elves strong during WC3 into nothing more than symptoms of weaknesses. They straight-up got rid of any good reason for them to abandon the arcane besides irrational distrust of it, so now they just come across as pointlessly stubborn at best, and monumentally stupid at worst.

Icefrost 11-09-2017 03:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ARM3481 (Post 1610265)
One of the problems night elves' development has is that over the years, WoW has gradually frittered away the detriments of arcane magic...
...now they just come across as pointlessly stubborn at best, and monumentally stupid at worst.

You know what's worse than that half the time?
All the people jumping onto the warcraft train in motion, not having franchise experience and perspective like ours, therefore thinking that the night elves were always just being "dumb primitives" about this stuff and then proceeding to flood all the discussion and feedback to blizzard with their frankly misinformed opinions.
Honestly, I sometimes wonder how much those people can be blamed for. I always got the feeling that there's a self-fulfilling prophecy somewhere in there that helped propel this thing way deeper into the gutter than it otherwise would've gone.

Genesis 11-09-2017 03:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ARM3481 (Post 1610265)
One of the problems night elves' development has is that over the years, WoW has gradually frittered away the detriments of arcane magic, increasingly associating the problems of its addiction and propensity for attracting demons to other, circumstantial causes.

Even Fel magic has been increasingly defanged, possibly for the sake of the player character warlocks.

BaronGrackle 11-09-2017 04:25 AM

Ironically, wouldn't Teldrassil itself be an example of modern Night Elf technology? As a post-WCIII creation, it seems to be a structure the Night Elves could recreate anywhere. Being able to grow a new world tree anywhere also fits thematically with their WCIII "mobile buildings" advantage (like the Starcraft Terrans).

With their recent pattern of getting hit over the head, a Night Elf fan could headmold a theme of pragmatic adaptation, cultural endurance, survivability against all odds - connected to a group of people instead of their land. It's a nationalism similar to what I felt for Nation of Azeroth in WC2 days... but they lost that theme before the game was over, so it's up for grabs.

Blizzard may never give them anything like a new world tree, and if they do it might end up in Stormwind's territory... but it's still an ember of characterization to hold on to, when trying to enjoy an RP experience. Some peoples seem made to suffer. Your Night Elf lives with that, without being slowed down.

Rhllor 11-09-2017 04:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noitora (Post 1610080)
Warning! Warning! Warning! Warning! Warning! Warning! Warning! Warning!

New expansion spoilers





One of the first things we learn about the new expansion is how the Night Elves lose control of Kalimdor. It goes as far as Teldrassil being burned. While this is a major blow to Night Elf fans, it worries me that they aren’t mentioned in the upcoming faction war.

Yes, we don’t know the full story, or what happens in the future, but it’s fair to say that night elves should be at the front of this story after having suffered such an unprecedented loss. There’s also Tyrande, and even Malfurion. Both so far, aren’t mentioned in the upcoming expansion. Again, they could be involved, but don’t appear to be the narrative focus unlike the other leaders.

Most can agree that the elves have been written poorly. Many will also wish for them to return to their Warcraft 3 roots. I personally don’t want that. They moved on from that story for a reason, and I believe that backtracking is bad for WoW. What I want for them is to have a narrative direction. Problem right now is that they don’t.

For a race that is usually the victim of some attack, the elves don’t get to respond in any major way. The cataclysm, the war in Ashenvale, and now this. Elves aren’t made to react, just to suffer. This is upsetting, for a race whose major theme in wc3 was to change from their past lives.

I’m cautiously optimistic about the next expansion. Despite the faction war, there are new things to enjoy about it. I hope the night elves will be one of them.

if they had not abandoned the use of magic they could have had a magical shield to protect them

Krainz 11-09-2017 05:00 AM

"GIVE NIGHT ELVES ARCANE MAGIC BACK!"

Yeah bro, sure.

That would make a lot of sense.

Except it wouldn't.

They wouldn't be able to accept such a sudden, radical change out of nowhere just because everyone else wields arcane magic, because their whole culture and mores have a deep fear of the usage of magic rooted in their very core.

Just like the village from The Village (2004) has a deep ingrained fear of the color red.

The collective culture and morals is to fear red.

Doesn't matter how many of their allies use arcane, and actually any sorts of magic (whaddup Illidari). It's cultural, and it's not something easy to change.

Sure, you can have one or two tribal offshoots or maybe even a warband rediscovering arcane magic and losing their fear of it, but not the entire race.

You defend Night Elves but you refuse to think of them as people with mores, beliefs and fears.

You aim for morally justified characters but refuse to think on them as complicated, conflicted people -- the best example is constantly mumbling about how good or evil Jaina Proudmoore is, up to the point of asking Dumbfrasiabi himself, and even THAT GUY has a better grasp of how people are.

Yeah, this is a good time for a cultural breakthrough, a rediscovering of arcane magic and questioning of mores. but it won't happen.

Why?

Because they're a living 10 thousand year old civilization, with better memory than humans. Better enough to carry on fears for ten thousand years.

So no, I don't believe they will overcome said fears and mores because it's past the point said fears and mores become irrational fears and they now must face the senseless human behavior of being attached to stupid mores just because it's the way it's always been and they're comfortable with that.

Jon Targaryen 11-09-2017 05:07 AM

They could grow a new tree in Duskwood. In the Twilight Grove.

Crazyterran 11-09-2017 07:13 AM

I would argue their fans are the most broken part and their unrealistic view of them.

Sacredless 11-09-2017 07:52 AM

Exactly. It's why I don't RP a night elf anymore, because it's rather hard to get a hold of night elf players whom have been able to reconcile their characters with the changes in the lore. Which I understand, they're roleplayers after all.

However, rather than accepting that these are different times, night elf fans have continued to perpetuate outdated ideas among themselves and I think because of that, Blizzard has writen itself into a corner in regards to pleasing the night elf fans.

I don't excuse Blizzard for their poor writing of night elves. They did write them very poorly. However, particularly around the new perspectives on the arcane, they have unintentionally invalidated most of the culture of the night elves.

How it could be repaired; Potentially.
Here's how I think it can be repaired; the night elves do not use the arcane in the same way as other races, but they have always used it. It's not even a secret, they know that the moonwells are laced with arcane magic.

However, the arcane that the night elves use, is strictly used as a reinforcement of other magic. Particularly, they channel it specifically through their moonwells, which channel it towards buildings which are reinforced with druidic magic in turn. The moonwells reinforce the natural and divine magic with the arcane and the blessings of the aspects.

So, night elves are in tune with the arcane and they do indeed use the arcane passively, but they do not use it in the same way as everyone else and they see a direct appeal to the arcane a zero-sum loss. They want the arcane to be contained to the second well of eternity, Nordrassil and to the moonwells. Using the arcane pure is wasteful.

Or something along those lines. Basically, the night elves don't have a problem with the concept of "the arcane", they have/had a problem with using the arcane wastefully.

EDIT: Edited out shitty theory.

Genesis 11-09-2017 08:07 AM

Additional comments upon reflection:
Quote:

Originally Posted by ARM3481 (Post 1610265)
By in effect liberating the arcane of its built-in hazards, WoW has increasingly changed the portrayal of everything that made the night elves strong during WC3 into nothing more than symptoms of weaknesses. They straight-up got rid of any good reason for them to abandon the arcane besides irrational distrust of it, so now they just come across as pointlessly stubborn at best, and monumentally stupid at worst.

I agree that the marginalization of negative effects (and use) of arcane magic has been detrimental to the depiction of night elf culture (and the lore on the whole). I do not want to dispute that point but I do think that night elves had a "just" and appropriate reaction to the use of arcane magic, as it was also a rejection of a prior culture and how magic operated. The conditions for arcane magic were different back WoE days of the Kaldorei Empire. It saturated their very being. It permitted the Kaldorei to draw upon a tremendous amount of raw arcane power without any finesse or care. It did draw the attention of demonic forces, serving as a powerful portal that permitted a vast amount of the upper echelons of the Burning Legion to travel to Azeroth in mass numbers, and the destruction of the WoE resulted in the Sundering of the world. There has been nothing comparable to that event since the Sundering, not even the Cataclysm. I doubt the importance of the War of the Ancients and the Sundering in the collective memory of the night elves can be understated, regardless of whether night elves have a "sophisticated" understanding of arcane magic or not.

But arcane magic was also primarily practiced by the upper elites of the Highborne. There was a lot of class resentment against the Highborne and their alienation from their own Kaldorei subjects. In this respect, night elf culture became a rejection of Highborne society, which only became more pronounced with the exile of the Highborne leadership under the Sunstriders. (As well as the seclusion of other pockets of Highborne society: e.g., Nightborne, Eldre'thas, etc.) Post-WoE Night Elf culture formed around the a merger of an Elunite theocracy, an emergent druidic culture (existing as an alternative for many ex-mages), and the lower strata of society.

I do not think that night elves were necessarily "too stupid," but, rather, they built their culture as an expressed rejection of practices that may have led to the return of the Burning Legion. Their watch lasted 10,000 years. Human use of magic (out of reach of the arcane-masking runestones) has really only transpired over the past 2,800 years, which has not been all that safe. Consider that the Burning Legion were repeatedly attracted to the use of arcane magic by humans, which spurred the creation of the Guardian of Tirisfal. And arcane use by humans did become a magnet for demonic corruption. Aegwynn and Medivh were both used by Sargeras, and human use of arcane magic paved the way for the orcish invasions through the Dark Portal. The arcane societies of both Dalaran and Quel'thalas being targeted by the return of the Burning Legion in the Third War, with Dalaran becoming the means by which Archimonde was summoned to Azeroth.

Bolvar 11-09-2017 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaronGrackle (Post 1610285)
Ironically, wouldn't Teldrassil itself be an example of modern Night Elf technology? As a post-WCIII creation, it seems to be a structure the Night Elves could recreate anywhere. Being able to grow a new world tree anywhere also fits thematically with their WCIII "mobile buildings" advantage (like the Starcraft Terrans).

With their recent pattern of getting hit over the head, a Night Elf fan could headmold a theme of pragmatic adaptation, cultural endurance, survivability against all odds - connected to a group of people instead of their land. It's a nationalism similar to what I felt for Nation of Azeroth in WC2 days... but they lost that theme before the game was over, so it's up for grabs.

Blizzard may never give them anything like a new world tree, and if they do it might end up in Stormwind's territory... but it's still an ember of characterization to hold on to, when trying to enjoy an RP experience. Some peoples seem made to suffer. Your Night Elf lives with that, without being slowed down.

I like the idea of them growing a new tree... perhaps Duskwood, as it's been suggested, or even in the Dalaran crater... and you could always start a fresh island off the coast of Stormwind or Gilneas...


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:50 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.