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-   -   Education(ism). (http://forums.scrollsoflore.com/showthread.php?t=215934)

PajamaSalad 04-18-2014 03:07 PM

Education(ism).
 
In this thread we should about the education system. Specifically the American one because that is the one I am most familiar with. In the United States we spend a lot of money on education. More so per student than almost any other nation. Here is a neat picture that shows how much we spend and how well we do with sources at the bottom.This can be interpreted a couple of ways. The United States has a lot more money than these other nations and a lower cost of living. We might have to pay more in order to get the same effect. This is the case even after you account for spending per student. Either way the American education system, in my opinion, is terrible.

One of the biggest issues I have with it that your public school you go to is determined by where you live unless you can afford to go to a private school. When my parents were together that meant they would live in the rich district with the best school system in the state because they can. The students my mother teaches in the poor inner city don't have that option. As far as equal opportunity in life is concerned this puts them at a massive disadvantage.

Then there is also limited options for students in regards to what school they can go to. You can't have specialized schools for different people. It is this one size fits all approach to school you don't have any sort of flexibility. It is like putting people through an assemble line. I knew a lot of people that failed at school not because they couldn't perform in life but because they hated their teachers and didn't try. I knew a guy that got his GED but taught himself computer programming with just the internet.

People could debate forever on what we should teach in schools. English, Math, Science, and Social Studies are considered core components and I agree with those. I think we need to separate the concept of knowledge acquisition and value of knowledge from schooling. There are many ways to learn in life. In the Air Force I get a lot of training, experiences, and travel that I can learn from. That GED guy I mentioned earlier used the internet. I have a friend that got a job at Walmart right out of high school and learned leadership skills and worked his way up to Assistant Manager. There is a lot of learning to be done via heuristics.

I just feel like the American education could be more effective and efficient if we had more choices and options. The kids in the poorest of neighborhoods wouldn't be at such a disadvantage. There would be more room for flexibility and innovation. School choice is a policy where if you take your kid out of the normal public education system you get a voucher to apply to another school or subsidize the cost of a private school. Personally I believe that would do wonders for the kids stuck at failing schools and encouraging flexibility and innovation.

As for post K-12 we should just stop showing favoritism to universities and have more people advancing their learning with on the job training and vocational schools. I am going to a university for Electrical Engineering but I feel like I have to learn all kinds of extra stuff that is what I like to call "learn and purge," where you learn things to take a test and then you forget about it. The statistics for college loans/debt, graduation rates, and employment prospects are an unsustainable system. It isn't completely useless and I understand it works for some people but I think society would benefit if there was more choice and diversity in how our people were educated.

I know a lot of people have talked about this topic before but I think it needed its own thread so we don't have all the threads in the same few topics.

Mutterscrawl 04-18-2014 03:14 PM

Why not try and fix the failing schools?

Omacron 04-18-2014 03:25 PM

Frankly I don't get why we don't have more schools on the internet. I learned more in middle school on wikpedia than I did with my ass in the seat at school. Too many parents see school as daycare for their kids rather than its intended function as education.

PajamaSalad 04-18-2014 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl (Post 1105884)
Why not try and fix the failing schools?

Things like No Child Left Behind and Common Core aren't very effective. School choice would fix those schools though. It is a solution that is different than the ones that have been tried before. It isn't just the school systems fault for the poor conditions of these areas. It is just part of it and a part the government is in control of.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omacron (Post 1105889)
Frankly I don't get why we don't have more schools on the internet. I learned more in middle school on wikpedia than I did with my ass in the seat at school. Too many parents see school as daycare for their kids rather than its intended function as education.

A lot of kids don't have the discipline or self-control to self-study on the internet. The internet is amazing though. I love that kind of technology and is the main reason I want to work on telecommunications. You can learn so much about auto repair and home repair just by looking it up online. There are even a lot of free guides on computer programming which is a useful skill for everyone. I have been trying to get better at cooking by watching videos and reading guides online.

Cantus 04-18-2014 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omacron (Post 1105889)
Frankly I don't get why we don't have more schools on the internet. I learned more in middle school on wikpedia than I did with my ass in the seat at school. Too many parents see school as daycare for their kids rather than its intended function as education.

It's all about the context. I can learn about a thousand events from Wikipedia or more reputable sources, but without the context provided by an individual who has taken the time to research, reference, and truly understand that material, what I learn won't actually bear any weight in the context of the real world.

This is why even my Wiki-Physics addiction has always been tempered by talking to people in the actual field itself. What basic concepts I learn on Wikipedia are put into their proper condensed constraints by people who actively understand all the math that builds up to that point. Ditto for Comp Sci, Legal, and etc.

Otherwise we end up with ideology instead of enlightenment. Doctrines prescribed down a hundred years of belief without the minutia that's really required to understand things and know where their limitations are.

PajamaSalad 04-18-2014 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lowtide (Post 1105980)
I mean, do you want the government to crack down on universities and force them to guarantee jobs and work experience to the students? That would be dangerously close to ... socialism.

No. I don't think everyone should go to a university and I don't think I should have to take electives/liberal arts for an EE degree. It think if it wasn't subsidized by the state and there was more competition the quality of education would go up and the costs would go down.

I think people would still take the liberal arts and humanities at a way cheaper cost then they are now. Some people could show an interest in those subjects just like people want to learn how to play the violin or learn how to scuba dive.

Omacron 04-18-2014 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cantus (Post 1105970)
It's all about the context. I can learn about a thousand events from Wikipedia or more reputable sources, but without the context provided by an individual who has taken the time to research, reference, and truly understand that material, what I learn won't actually bear any weight in the context of the real world.

This is why even my Wiki-Physics addiction has always been tempered by talking to people in the actual field itself. What basic concepts I learn on Wikipedia are put into their proper condensed constraints by people who actively understand all the math that builds up to that point. Ditto for Comp Sci, Legal, and etc.

Otherwise we end up with ideology instead of enlightenment. Doctrines prescribed down a hundred years of belief without the minutia that's really required to understand things and know where their limitations are.

I didn't mean autodidacticism, I meant online classes (like those offered by universities) should supplant mandatory, physical schools. There would still be physical private schools, but the "bare minimum" of our education could be conducted over the internet. Give a kid a laptop, a router and a teacher for every 30 or so kids and you can close the physical buildings and save a shitload of money.

Nazja 04-18-2014 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lowtide (Post 1105998)
God, I was joking :( you really do have some German qualities in you.

:burst:

Noitora 04-18-2014 06:08 PM

Germans are weird.

HlaaluStyle 04-18-2014 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omacron (Post 1105889)
Frankly I don't get why we don't have more schools on the internet. I learned more in middle school on wikpedia than I did with my ass in the seat at school. Too many parents see school as daycare for their kids rather than its intended function as education.

Personally, I never got much out of online learning. It's difficult to feel investment in something that's so distant. However, the only classes I took online were on subjects that didn't particularly interest me, so that may have played a role.

They may work pretty well for students who are very motivated and interested in the subject.

Beyond that, I pretty much agree with what PJ said in the OP.

Omacron 04-18-2014 07:17 PM

The biggest two things that dragged down my grades in school, IMO, were other students and having to wake up early. I may be projecting and assuming everyone else was like me. Then again I went to a school which has more nobel prize winning alumni than Spain (suck it, Lon-Ami) so maybe I'm biased.

PajamaSalad 04-18-2014 07:21 PM

Quit being so privileged Omacron!

Omacron 04-18-2014 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pajamasalad (Post 1106050)
Quit being so privileged Omacron!

How is it privilege? I went to a public school. Just a really really good one- which is actually in a pretty shitty neighborhood.

PajamaSalad 04-18-2014 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omacron (Post 1106052)
How is it privilege? I went to a public school. Just a really really good one- which is actually in a pretty shitty neighborhood.

It sounds like a fancy pancy millionaire school.

HlaaluStyle 04-18-2014 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pajamasalad (Post 1106054)
It sounds like a fancy pancy millionaire school.

Why do you hate rich people, PajamaSalad?

Omacron 04-18-2014 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pajamasalad (Post 1106054)
It sounds like a fancy pancy millionaire school.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronx_Science

PajamaSalad 04-18-2014 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HlaaluStyle (Post 1106056)
Why do you hate rich people, PajamaSalad?

I am a bourgeois sycophant.

Eagan 04-18-2014 08:43 PM

One either has a brain, or one doesn't. There isn't much else to say. It was written by God long before one learned to write.

Yaskaleh 04-19-2014 01:13 AM

Education is good for the ordinay people but it often hinders genius from realizing their potential. Most of the genius we've had hasn't come from the education systems. Faraday, imo one of our most important inventors and geniuses ever, never went to school. He educated himself and thus came to the sciences with an open mind and could think outside of the box, not limited by the misconceptions of his time.

Yaskaleh 04-19-2014 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lowtide (Post 1106270)
... that was 200 years ago. You don't think education has caught up somewhat?

I would say it has gone worse, mainstreaming how one perceives the world in such a way that thinking outside of the box becomes rarer. I'm a great critic of the current state of modern science. It's more dogma and imagination than science.

SmokeBlader 04-19-2014 07:39 AM

When it comes to critical thinking I think the kid will do it on his own rather than have the school telling him to do so.

Nazja 04-19-2014 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yaskaleh (Post 1106271)
I would say it has gone worse, mainstreaming how one perceives the world in such a way that thinking outside of the box becomes rarer. I'm a great critic of the current state of modern science. It's more dogma and imagination than science.

Not everyone is a Hermione. :)

Kynrind 04-19-2014 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omacron (Post 1106048)
The biggest two things that dragged down my grades in school, IMO, were other students and having to wake up early. I may be projecting and assuming everyone else was like me. Then again I went to a school which has more nobel prize winning alumni than Spain (suck it, Lon-Ami) so maybe I'm biased.

Waking up at 6-7-8 am to go to school is not early. It's only early if you stayed up after 9-11 pm till after midnight or in the early AM. If you're staying up that late then complaining about being tired in the morning.. go to bed earlier?

Sheesh, complaining about getting up early.. Kids these days.. :rolleyes:

Jungleluke 04-19-2014 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kynrind (Post 1106333)
Waking up at 6-7-8 am to go to school is not early. It's only early if you stayed up after 9-11 pm till after midnight or in the early AM. If you're staying up that late then complaining about being tired in the morning.. go to bed earlier?

Sheesh, complaining about getting up early.. Kids these days.. :rolleyes:

Pah! I usually have to stand up around 4:45 in the morning for work, so your argument is invalid!:P

And fuck Easter. So much work last week...

But anyways, this thread is about school not work... so uhm yeah my bad.

Nazja 04-19-2014 11:06 AM

I have to wake up at 10:30 am, and I'm still always tired. :(


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