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-   -   Political division among faction's members. (http://forums.scrollsoflore.com/showthread.php?t=32696)

Pixy 07-03-2013 01:41 AM

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Anyways, the point, which I somehow forgot, was that the Horde could defeat the occupying troops easily, if it set it's mind to doing so.
And the Alliance could reinforce the front easily and retake the city if it set its mind to doing so.

Korath 07-03-2013 01:44 AM

Come on, people...I've laready said that the SoO and its military aftermath aren't the point of this thrad. It is more the political struggle which interest me and thus this thread... :sweatdrop

Pixy 07-03-2013 01:47 AM

It would have been interesting to see the night elf culture splintered more, but this time led by respective people.

Instead of having Fandral antagonized, they could have made him lead the druids and settle in Nighthaven. Tyrande could have led the Sisterhood of Elune in Darkshore while Shandris was leading the war in Ashenvale controlling the sentinels.

I see that as a lost opportunity on Blizzard's part since they could have made night elf culture so much more interesting. And of course, political struggle within the Alliance.

Nazja 07-03-2013 03:12 AM

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Originally Posted by Pixy (Post 900593)
And the Alliance could reinforce the front easily and retake the city if it set its mind to doing so.

With the disadvantages of having the population hate you and having to ship in your soldiers from the other side of the world. ;)
I'm not saying that the Alliance is weaker or inept, I'm just saying that the effort wouldn't really be worth it. At most, you're just sending valuable troops to the slaughterhouse. :kawaii:

Anyways, let's stop like Korath begged us to.

Kynrind 07-04-2013 06:29 AM

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Originally Posted by Nazja (Post 900146)
  • The rebel Horde is, probably, only slightly weaker than the Alliance.

This should not be the path Blizzard takes with the ending of the war. The Horde needs to be noticeably weaker than the Alliance or the Alliance winning comes off as very strange and a sign that the Alliance only won because the Horde let it win because it split into two different pieces.

Nazja 07-04-2013 06:34 AM

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Originally Posted by Kynrind (Post 902219)
This should not be the path Blizzard takes with the ending of the war. The Horde needs to be noticeably weaker than the Alliance or the Alliance winning comes off as very strange and a sign that the Alliance only won because the Horde let it win because it split into two different pieces.

Not going that path would mean that the Horde has always been carried by the orcs. That, even with the Thall loyalists, all the other race combined are a mere footnote, in comparison to Garrosh's friends.

I thought we didn't want Orcs and Humans to dominate their factions. To let the other races shine.

Noitora 07-04-2013 06:42 AM

The horde are carried by orcs though. That's the point of the rebellion. They can't do it separately. That's probably the reason why the horde are licking their wounds next expansion. Because they need to figure out what to do without orcs carrying them.

Kir the Wizard 07-04-2013 06:55 AM

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Originally Posted by Nazja (Post 902221)
Not going that path would mean that the Horde has always been carried by the orcs. That, even with the Thall loyalists, all the other race combined are a mere footnote, in comparison to Garrosh's friends.

I thought we didn't want Orcs and Humans to dominate their factions. To let the other races shine.

Pointless reasoning if I ever heard one.

Nazja 07-04-2013 06:58 AM

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Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard (Post 902232)
Pointless reasoning if I ever heard one.

Just because you want Org to be occupied. :P
If anything, people should be clamoring for the orcs, who were just a ragtag group of survivors, to be less prominent and not embracing this fact.

MisterCrow 07-04-2013 07:01 AM

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Originally Posted by Nazja (Post 902221)
I thought we didn't want Orcs and Humans to dominate their factions. To let the other races shine.

Who's the "we" here? I don't remember Blizzard ever saying that wanted to de-emphasize "orcs vs. humans" as a core theme. I think I can remember them saying the opposite, though.

If the "we" is the posters on SoL, then yeah, I'm sure that all the "I hate the faction war" cats want to see more attention on the other races, but *shrug*.

Kir the Wizard 07-04-2013 07:02 AM

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Originally Posted by Nazja (Post 902234)
Just because you want Org to be occupied. :P

I don't, actually. I just want the Alliance to be as little stupid as possible regarding the outcome.

Honestly, both thematically and sensefully, the canon Horde version of the raid would be for the best.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Nazja (Post 902234)
If anything, people should be clamoring for the orcs, who were just a ragtag group of survivors, to be less prominent and not embracing this fact.

It's the ORCISH HORDE. Deal with it.

Noitora 07-04-2013 07:04 AM

I want orcs in general to take a backseat. Let the Tauren be the muscle. At best let orcs like saurfang lead forces. Make blood elves war advisors. The orcs need to feel that sting of mistrust. They're better as underdogs.

Lord Eliphas 07-04-2013 08:02 AM

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I just want the Alliance to be as little stupid as possible regarding the outcome.
Well, only way for that to happen is for Varian to die.

He's the one who didn't give a fucking shit about peace before when Thrall (who did appeasement as if he was Chamberlain himself) was there. It only intensified due to Garrosh's more political-realist view on the situation. There can't be a peace between the two factions, so just take what resources are needed for the Horde as a whole.

Varian is kinda like Darth Malak in that regard. Really, everyone else makes it all stand together. He has his Saul, he has his Spies, and so on.

All he does is look foreboding.

Kynrind 07-04-2013 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nazja (Post 902221)
Not going that path would mean that the Horde has always been carried by the orcs. That, even with the Thall loyalists, all the other race combined are a mere footnote, in comparison to Garrosh's friends.

I thought we didn't want Orcs and Humans to dominate their factions. To let the other races shine.



The Horde, especially the orcs -should- be weaker after the Siege. The Alliance is supposed to be victorious. which implies that it -is- significantly stronger militarily to defeat the Horde if the Horde pushed the issue. With so many orcs now dead, that should put the rest of the Horde at a disadvantage because the orcs did make up such a large percentage of the military (mind you it never should have considering that it was only a few ships that landed on Kalimdor carrying orcs and trolls, but that's another issue with how Blizzard portrays population numbers. As in it flat out ignores them for the plot).

If the Horde after the Siege is only slightly weaker than the Alliance, that also implies that the Alliance only won because the Horde began fighting itself. That the Alliance is incapable of ever defeating the Horde on an equal footing.

HalfElfDragon 07-04-2013 01:54 PM

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Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard (Post 902239)
It's the ORCISH HORDE.

Not anymore.

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Originally Posted by Kynrind (Post 902512)
If the Horde after the Siege is only slightly weaker than the Alliance, that also implies that the Alliance only won because the Horde began fighting itself. That the Alliance is incapable of ever defeating the Horde on an equal footing.

And maybe it is, at present moment.

Kir the Wizard 07-04-2013 02:00 PM

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Originally Posted by HalfElfDragon (Post 902545)
Not anymore.

Yes it is. The Horde is not going to become the new Troll Empire just because of Vol'jin. Orcs have always been a majority that provided themes for other member-races (instead of adapting them for themselves like the humans did).

MisterCrow 07-04-2013 02:04 PM

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Originally Posted by HalfElfDragon (Post 902545)
And maybe it is, at present moment.

Someday, someone will want to write a definitive history of the Wars of Azeroth (Azerothの戦記) that helps to demonstrate why shit happened when and where. There isn't really a lot of substantial rationale for why the Alliance would be so weak in comparison to the Horde at this point (especially if the Horde's advantage is in "numbers of orcs" which wouldn't compute unless they went back to using warlock aging-magicks) but then again, the aforementioned "population numbers < plot" means that the Alliance needs the rebellion because if not, they need to write a new plot.

C9H20 07-04-2013 03:16 PM

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Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard (Post 902557)
Yes it is. The Horde is not going to become the new Troll Empire just because of Vol'jin. Orcs have always been a majority that provided themes for other member-races (instead of adapting them for themselves like the humans did).

Kinda odd for you to say this.

I am not sure if you are following my advice and being a realist or if you actually want this.

To say that orcs v humans is where it's at is to ignore the lessons of WCIII and why it is hailed as the best warcraft lore to date.

Kir the Wizard 07-04-2013 03:32 PM

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Originally Posted by C9H20 (Post 902635)
Kinda odd for you to say this.

I am not sure if you are following my advice and being a realist or if you actually want this.

To say that orcs v humans is where it's at is to ignore the lessons of WCIII and why it is hailed as the best warcraft lore to date.

Oh, but I'm following the Horde's lessons of WCIII to a T. :evil:

Are you implying that it were trolls and tauren that made the Horde campaigns interesting, and not the Thrall-Gromm parallel development?

Oh, WCIII was very orc-biased. WCII was much very less so - the orcs had TWO units among the whole Horde faction! TWO units, one of which was the builder, and the one you wouldn't use much as soon as you got the ogre-mages.

Orcs were the cornerstone that made other races 'fit' or not fit the Horde. They spread the RED, the SPIKES, the WARCRY, the SPIRIT. They spread the idea of the Horde so hard that other races started to feel like at home, instead of being blatant vassals of the orcish empire. That's something no other race (except for Naaru) could do.

Without the orcs, there will never be a true Horde.

Noitora 07-04-2013 03:36 PM

Which is the problem of this whole war. It's always orcs vs humans when it should've been nelves vs orcs, humans vs forsaken, dwarves vs Tauren, etc. Instead it's Orcs and friends vs humans and friends and that doesn't work in a mmo. I don't play my nelf or my belt to be a sidekick.

HalfElfDragon 07-04-2013 03:40 PM

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Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard (Post 902557)
Yes it is. The Horde is not going to become the new Troll Empire just because of Vol'jin. Orcs have always been a majority that provided themes for other member-races (instead of adapting them for themselves like the humans did).

I'm not suggesting that it's a Trollish Horde, or a Elven Horde, or a Goblinish Horde, or a Undead Horde, or a Taurenesq Horde (though really, from around TFT through TBC it kinda was, culturally). It's the Horde. Its all of those things and more.

Noitora 07-04-2013 03:46 PM

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Originally Posted by HalfElfDragon (Post 902673)
I'm not suggesting that it's a Trollish Horde, or a Elven Horde, or a Goblinish Horde, or a Undead Horde, or a Taurenesq Horde (though really, from around TFT through TBC it kinda was, culturally). It's the Horde. Its all of those things and more.

This, but I just want a less cultural and military orcish horde. If they wanted that they would've focused more on Orc rebels.

C9H20 07-04-2013 04:09 PM

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Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard (Post 902662)
Are you implying that it were trolls and tauren that made the Horde campaigns interesting, and not the Thrall-Gromm parallel development?

And was the Grom-Thrall dynamic what propped up the NE campaign?

Because that is what you would need to argue to dismantle my actual point. That is how warcraft left the orc v human and even Alliance vs Horde thematic by introducing the undead, the NEs, even the Legion and naga. And we loved it, and the story was great.

Yes in WCIII NEs/orcs/humans dominated their respective factions but just like how the mere existence of NEs and undead threw the orc v human crap out a window (mostly) so does the inclusion of tauren, trolls and so on as individually playable groups throw out orc (or human) supremacy out the window.

True orcish themes, ideals and so on would remain strong within the Horde because orcs are a strong part within the Horde. But things change, things are changing right now and if we want a logical and engaging story it would be time for the Horde to change after SoO.
All Horde races contribute to the overall feel of the Horde, orcs did so more than others but now it is time for trolls or BEs to take over.

The Horde evolving would be equally good for the story as inclusion of NEs and undead was. It is logical change, it brings new possibilities and explores them. Since the alternative is hamfistedly holding on to an impossible status quo out of nostalgia there is really no choice here.

Kir the Wizard 07-05-2013 09:13 AM

I said nothing about the human vs orc dynamic. It makes little sense indeed, especially after the introduction of night elves and the undead.

MisterCrow 07-05-2013 12:43 PM

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Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard (Post 903167)
I said nothing about the human vs orc dynamic. It makes little sense indeed, especially after the introduction of night elves and the undead.

I disagree with the assertion that the introduction of the kaldorei and the Forsaken dismantled the "orcs vs. humans" dynamic of the franchise.
  • Warcraft 1 was orcs vs. humans. This set the tone and the rules for the franchise.
  • Warcraft 2 was orcs & friends vs. humans & friends. This altered one pre-existing rule of the franchise (it's just orcs vs. just humans) while reinforcing the core tenet (it's orcs+ vs. humans+).
  • Warcraft 3 altered the pre-existing rule of orcs+ vs. humans+ by introducing an overpowering third faction into play in the Burning Legion. This expanded the story to include some past oppostion against the Legion (the kaldorei) and the Legion's latest weapon (the Scourge). It broke the rule in a critical way by having orcs and humans work together, albeit against an overwhelming threat.

The whole point of Warcraft 3, down to the intro cinematics, was to demonstrate that the orc vs. human conflict was immaterial in the face of a demon invasion. The night elf and Forsaken narratives are tangential to that narrative, but it doesn't really dismantle the narrative; it's not like the game ends and there's peace between the orcs and humans.


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