Scrolls of Lore Forums

Scrolls of Lore Forums (http://forums.scrollsoflore.com/index.php)
-   Halls of Lordaeron (http://forums.scrollsoflore.com/forumdisplay.php?f=24)
-   -   SABs (Social activist bullshit) (http://forums.scrollsoflore.com/showthread.php?t=216883)

Ganishka 01-14-2016 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl (Post 1415026)
-Bullshit-

Productivity is up.

CEO wages are up.

Wages for everyone else? Stagnant.

Lulz, you clearly know jack-shit about business, Mutters. Have you ever ran a business? My mother did. A tiny business. A cafe. We wouldn't have been able to pay our 3 workers their salaries AND buy more product to sell with the high minimum wage laws, especially not with a $15 an hour one. We paid them $4 dollars an hour, and could barely stay afloat. Let alone make a fucking profit! We closed shop after a year, but it would have been closed MUCH quicker with the minimum wages forced on us "for the good of the workers"!

Oh, and speaking of CEO wages, who do you think supports wage increases in the fucking first place? They, and their Union allies, lobby for "higher pay", as the corporate behemoths can easily soak the minimum wage increases, and the Unions make secret backroom deals to be "exempt" from the increases, which kills off all of the independent small and non-union competition, giving them a falsely-created monopoly.

Ragnahar 01-14-2016 01:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl (Post 1415026)
-Bullshit-

Productivity is up.

CEO wages are up.

Wages for everyone else? Stagnant.

Majority of businesses aren't huge businesses though.

Sagara 01-14-2016 02:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ragnahar (Post 1415039)
Majority of businesses aren't huge businesses though.

I think the problem here is the abyssal differences between your startup and small business boss, and the more established group of people that tend to gravitate around the biggest leadership positions.

But while their lives are as different as life and day, they are still beholden to the same basic law structures, meaning trying to hit one part, will inevitably hurt the other.
I believe it's actually even worse than that, as that same "elite" tend to have the economic strenght, the political weight and the knowledge of the system required to find the loophole to weasel out of, while your average startupper will be lucky if he can fill the paperwork for a taxbreak while trying to keep the ship afloat.

Ragnahar 01-14-2016 02:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sagara (Post 1415040)
I think the problem here is the abyssal differences between your startup and small business boss, and the more established group of people that tend to gravitate around the biggest leadership positions.

But while their lives are as different as life and day, they are still beholden to the same basic law structures, meaning trying to hit one part, will inevitably hurt the other.
I believe it's actually even worse than that, as that same "elite" tend to have the economic strenght, the political weight and the knowledge of the system required to find the loophole to weasel out of, while your average startupper will be lucky if he can fill the paperwork for a taxbreak while trying to keep the ship afloat.

Small businesses rely on cheaper product. Raising the wages of workers at big stores and producing higher costing items in the U.S., will not make it easier for small business owners to buy their items it will make it harder, and small businesses are the biggest employers in the nation.

Sagara 01-14-2016 03:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ragnahar (Post 1415042)
Small businesses rely on cheaper product. Raising the wages of workers at big stores and producing higher costing items in the U.S., will not make it easier for small business owners to buy their items it will make it harder, and small businesses are the biggest employers in the nation.

I can't help but think there's a intuitive jump being made between big businesses and big earners, i.e. 'if you win big, you're the big boss of a huge company'
There IS a clear correlation between the two, but I think that working from the "business manager" angle tends to shoot down the argument, as that will also shoot down the small business and startup ventures. "Big earners" are a more appropriate target, although you DO get the whole "Do you hate success?" thing in the deal.

Now there IS a problem with unemployement, and a part of it is clearly due to international pressure on wages as well, but that's not something that can be solved by hitting the business owners, unless you start churning out protectionist policies, and Heavens know that's going to come across just fine on the international scene.

We've had something similar in Belgium when the coal mines went bust. The only thing that got those unemployment numbers back down was when those mine workers eventually hit retirement, and were slowly replaced with a new generation with other, more valuable in a post-mine wold, qualifications.
Actually, we still suffer from acute hiring problems as it's nigh impossible to find qualified people in some fields, while still dragging 8.5 unemployement. It's just that the jobs that are available require a specific skillset or have specific needs (weekend / night work) that people can't or won't consider.

It's something I felt acutely during my studies. I just picked up the yearly report of jobs that "suffer from acute lack of applicants", and well, civil engineers, industrial engineers, specialized medical personnel, teaching, accounting, manutention, IT, secretaries, catering and plumbing/electritians top the list. But, with the exception of engineers, those jobs aren't advertised or hyped up. I fell into IT by sheer accident because "you're the guy that swap RAMs and is good with Excell" because it would never have occured to me it was a valuable carreer path back when I had to choose.

PajamaSalad 01-14-2016 03:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl (Post 1415018)
PJ, there are business owners that literally make more just for being alive, in a minute, than minimum wage people will make in a year.

So yes, I think our tax system is fucked up, no one -needs- a billion dollars, it's stupid. I understand many rich people have worked hard for their wealth and they deserve to benefit from that, but the degree of the gap is ludicrous and needs to change.

Society needs to change period because we're moving away from even having enough jobs to keep -most- people employed, because for everything we automate we need fewer and fewer people to fill the new jobs created making / designing the machines that are doing the automation for us.

There are two reasons some CEO get paid too much, one good and one bad. The bad one is because they have political connections and the government doesn't prosecute them for paying too little or gives them some kind of unfair advantage.

The main reason is that income is an incentive to produce something of value. A CEO has so much more influence over the productivity and efficiency of a company. If the marginal tax rate is too high they will simply make income to a certain point and then contribute their time and effort to something else. A simple example is an actor that only makes one movie a year instead of two because after that first movie their marginal tax rate would be so high it simply wouldn't be worth it. A CEO could just go on vacation or invest in luxurious break rooms or something that does not contribute to the efficiency or productivity of their company. Supply and demand dictates that the less efficient and productivity your society is the more expensive your individual goods will become. If 20 people want something the price will fluctuate depending on whether producers are willing to produce 5, 10, or 15. Price is just a rationing mechanic to make sure people that are the willing to pay the most for a product get it. Countries like Venezuela has scarcities because people don't care to produce enough.

There are so many jobs through out history that have been made obsolete and we adapted to it and enjoyed the more abundant goods and higher wages. We don't have people that switch cable pins to make phone calls anymore. People aren't paid to be alarm clocks. Our agriculture went from needing 85% of the population to feed everyone down to 0.5% of the population which frees up everyone else to do something else. Eventually self-driven cars are going to revolutionize logistics. No more bus, taxi, or cargo truck drivers. The nature of parking will change. We will all benefit from the reduction in cost of labor because everything will be cheaper to produce.

Bullroarer 01-28-2016 08:41 PM


Ragnahar 01-28-2016 09:04 PM

What in the mother of fucks.

HlaaluStyle 01-28-2016 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bullroarer (Post 1421369)

I'm now embarrassed to be part Asian.

Thanks a lot, random YouTuber.

EDIT: Basically, I can't imagine being so unhappy or insecure that I'm only able to enjoy media that has characters who share my ethnic background. There aren't a whole lot of Asian characters in popular media--there are even fewer half-Asians. Somehow I don't see this as a big deal, because I have the basic human ability to empathize with people who don't have my particular background.

Fuck it, from now on I'll only watch shows about half-Japanese diabetics. Clearly that's my tribe and I should stick with us. All couple hundred of us, maybe? I dunno.

Mutterscrawl 01-28-2016 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ragnahar (Post 1415039)
Majority of businesses aren't huge businesses though.

Shockingly, if you increase wages, people spend more, because after paying off bills and necessities, they buy other things.

Of course there's also the alternative of linking minimum pay for a business to a percentage of what the highest paid individual is.

Ragnahar 01-28-2016 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HlaaluStyle (Post 1421399)
I'm now embarrassed to be part Asian.

Thanks a lot, random YouTuber.

EDIT: Basically, I can't imagine being so unhappy or insecure that I'm only able to enjoy media that has characters who share my ethnic background. There aren't a whole lot of Asian characters in popular media--there are even fewer half-Asians. Somehow I don't see this as a big deal, because I have the basic human ability to empathize with people who don't have my particular background.

Fuck it, from now on I'll only watch shows about half-Japanese diabetics. Clearly that's my tribe and I should stick with us. All couple hundred of us, maybe? I dunno.

Welcome aboard, brother. I only watch shows about straight white dudes that have built a culture strong enough to dominate an entire planet.

BaronGrackle 01-28-2016 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HlaaluStyle (Post 1421399)
I'm now embarrassed to be part Asian.

Thanks a lot, random YouTuber.

EDIT: Basically, I can't imagine being so unhappy or insecure that I'm only able to enjoy media that has characters who share my ethnic background. There aren't a whole lot of Asian characters in popular media--there are even fewer half-Asians. Somehow I don't see this as a big deal, because I have the basic human ability to empathize with people who don't have my particular background.

Fuck it, from now on I'll only watch shows about half-Japanese diabetics. Clearly that's my tribe and I should stick with us. All couple hundred of us, maybe? I dunno.

Just don't spoil Man in the High Castle before I finish season 1.

Ruinshin 01-28-2016 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl (Post 1421409)
Shockingly, if you increase wages, people spend more, because after paying off bills and necessities, they buy other things.

Of course there's also the alternative of linking minimum pay for a business to a percentage of what the highest paid individual is.

So, you increase wages across the board.

Now everything costs more.

Mutterscrawl 01-29-2016 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruinshin (Post 1421434)
So, you increase wages across the board.

Now everything costs more.

That's a gross oversimplification and not how it works.

http://benjaminstudebaker.com/2015/0...-to-inflation/

Quote:

There is no clear relationship. The minimum wage more than doubled in inflation-adjusted value between 1948 and 1968, but inflation during most of this period was stable. From 1968 to 1988, the inflation-adjusted value of the minimum wage actually fell by around one third, but inflation still spiked throughout the 70?s. In 2008, the minimum wage saw its largest increase in decades in both real and nominal terms, but inflation not only failed to rise, it cratered.

Indeed, the very fact that you can raise the inflation-adjusted minimum wage at all shows that this argument is completely false. If minimum wage hikes were entirely offset with price increases, it would not be possible to raise the inflation adjusted minimum wage from $4.07 to $10.56, but this is precisely what happened between 1938 and 1968. Instead, the blue line would simply be flat, or at the very least it would rapidly re-converge to some flat trend line. The graph looks nothing like this, which suggests that this argument is fundamentally broken in a basic way.

What?s wrong with it? It relies on the assumption that firms pay their workers the maximum amount they can possibly pay while staying in business, such that any increase in wages necessitates raising prices. This could not be further from the truth?firms do not try to maximize wages, they try to maximize profits. To maximize profits, firms need to minimize their labor costs, not maximize them. So firms try to pay their workers as little as they can get away with. Historically, the minimum a worker could be paid was traditionally the subsistence wage?the amount of money the worker needed to buy food and pay rent, i.e. to subsist. Over the last couple centuries, wages have risen above the subsistence level for three core reasons:

Scarce Skills?many firms now need skilled workers. There are often fewer skilled workers than firms need, and this means that firms must compete for skilled workers by offering them higher wages. So skilled workers have more bargaining power than unskilled workers (provided that the specific skills the worker has are in high demand).
Trade Unionism?governments have legalized unions and created union rights. Collectively workers have more bargaining power than they do individually, and this allows them to negotiate higher wages.
Minimum Wages?governments have set floors on wages above the subsistence level to increase the purchasing power and standard of living of workers.
If firms were always paying as much in wages as they possibly could without raising prices, trade unions and minimum wage laws would be completely ineffective at raising inflation-adjusted wages. But history shows that the opposite is true?when unions were strongest and the inflation-adjusted minimum wage was the highest (roughly the thirty year period between 1945 and 1975), inflation-adjusted wages grew continuously alongside productivity. But when the inflation-adjusted minimum wage stopped rising and unions were weakened, wages stagnated while productivity continued to rise:

PajamaSalad 01-29-2016 05:12 AM


Noitora 01-29-2016 05:43 AM

When people say prices go up, don't they go up regardless? Isn't that why minimum wage isn't enough?

PajamaSalad 01-29-2016 05:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noitora (Post 1421491)
When people say prices go up, don't they go up regardless? Isn't that why minimum wage isn't enough?

Well something like minimum wage will cause prices to go up because it will increase demand disproportionately to how much it increases supply. Inflation should in theory raise both while also devaluing savings and lessening debt burdens(which is suppose to make rich people spend money and poor people have less debt.) It can influence investing strategies though and discourage people from saving money.

Genesis 01-29-2016 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noitora (Post 1421491)
When people say prices go up, don't they go up regardless? Isn't that why minimum wage isn't enough?

It depends on the economist (and their ideology).

ijffdrie 01-29-2016 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HlaaluStyle (Post 1421399)
Fuck it, from now on I'll only watch shows about half-Japanese diabetics. Clearly that's my tribe and I should stick with us. All couple hundred of us, maybe? I dunno.

The half-japanese part shouldn't be too difficult, given how common those are in anime.

Nazja 01-29-2016 08:05 AM

So Hlaalu has to watch Scrubs.

Bullroarer 01-29-2016 08:33 AM

If I only watched films with Bengali, the only thing left for me would be musicals with lower budgets than Bollywood and bad soap operas.


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:32 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.