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-   -   Relation between Warcraft and DPA (http://forums.scrollsoflore.com/showthread.php?t=216280)

Trickster 07-27-2014 07:53 PM

Relation between Warcraft and DPA
 
So I just watched Dawn of the Planet of the Apes (great movie btw) and I would like to explore a relation I have noticed between this movie and Warcraft. Obviously, this contain spoilers so you are warned.

Long story short, Apes and Humans just ignore each other until a few Humans encounter the Apes. Then one asshole, Koba, goes batshit insane, "kill" Caesar and then proceeds to assault the Humans' town. Caesar comes back, healed by Humans, and kill Koba.

At the end of the movie, Caesar tells his Human friend, Malcom, to leave as the Humans will never forget what the Apes did and that now there's a war going on because of the monkeys.

Why can't we have that in Warcraft? The Orcs boosted on demon juice went through a portal to attack unprovoked Humans and started a war. A parallele could be establish between the demon blood and Koba. Both caused a war that could easily have been avoided. Of course, in both cases it could have been a thing since the Apes didn't like Humans and Orcs are just a violent and savage race naturally. But still, there is a clear link, at least in my mind.

So I go back to my question, why can't we have that in Warcraft? And by "that", I don't mean imbecile assaults against one another, I think Warcraft is fairly competent when it comes to starting wars for a yes or for a no. I'm talking about Caesar's line. That the Humans will never forgive the horrible actions of the Apes and that now it's the Apes fault if there's a war. Why can't we see that mindset displayed more within the Orcs?

It's basically the same thing. A war started by a problem within one race. Yet, in Warcraft, we don't see the Orcs having the reasoning of Caesar. They simply keep hating the Humans and say they are evil because of the internement camps.

The parallele could also work for the Cataclysm-Mists war. Again it is only one guy who really hates the other faction and started a war to destroy them. It even works better since Thrall kills Garrosh, just like Caesar killed Koba. Why don't we see that within Thrall's attitude or any other Horde leader?

And still, that wouldn't take anything away from the Horde as, just like the Apes, they'd just keep fighting because there's nothing else to do.

I think there's a lot Blizzard could learn from Dawn of the Planet of the Apes. Any thoughs on that?

Mutterscrawl 07-27-2014 07:55 PM

Koba was effectively tortured in laboratories, I think that should be taken into consideration.

He's a better "Garrosh" than Garrosh was basically.

Trickster 07-27-2014 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl (Post 1172940)
Koba was effectively tortured in laboratories, I think that should be taken into consideration.

He's a better "Garrosh" than Garrosh was basically.

Yes, I take it in consideration, but he still satarted a war with people that did not torture him. Anyhow, the discussion isn't about Koba, Garrosh or the Orcs' motives, but about what attitude should be adopted by the aggressors after.

I think Caesar's resignation to continue fighting, combined with his guilt is what the Orcs -and the Horde- need.

Mutterscrawl 07-27-2014 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trickster (Post 1172952)
Yes, I take it in consideration, but he still satarted a war with people that did not torture him. Anyhow, the discussion isn't about Koba, Garrosh or the Orcs' motives, but about what attitude should be adopted by the aggressors after.

I think Caesar's resignation to continue fighting, combined with his guilt is what the Orcs -and the Horde- need.

Thing is the Alliance -would- forgive, and the Orcs don't feel all that guilty. Ever.

Except Thrall and the Frostwolves.


Because Most orcs still think the internment camps were about murdering them slowly or enslaving them.

PajamaSalad 07-27-2014 08:08 PM

Why can't the Horde have a legitimate reason to fight the Alliance instead? Right now I just want to surrender to the Alliance. In a Dawn of the Apes like scenario it wouldn't be fun fighting the Alliance. Why should the story be written in such a way that the Horde has to feel bad to fight the Alliance? Why can't the Horde have any victimization or righteous indignation?

Trickster 07-27-2014 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl (Post 1172956)
Thing is the Alliance -would- forgive, and the Orcs don't feel all that guilty. Ever.

Except Thrall and the Frostwolves.


Because Most orcs still think the internment camps were about murdering them slowly or enslaving them.

That's why I say it SHOULD be like this and why Blizzard should learn from the movie instead of going on with the current bullshit story they are developping.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pajamasalad (Post 1172959)
Why can't the Horde have a legitimate reason to fight the Alliance instead? Right now I just want to surrender to the Alliance. In a Dawn of the Apes like scenario it wouldn't be fun fighting the Alliance. Why should the story be written in such a way that the Horde has to feel bad to fight the Alliance? Why can't the Horde have any victimization or righteous indignation?

Because that's how the story's been written for the past 20 years. Duh... You propose we just retcon/ignore all of that? Please bring pertinent answers to the thread and go do your trolling/exagerated victimisation elsewhere.

Mutterscrawl 07-27-2014 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pajamasalad (Post 1172959)
Why can't the Horde have a legitimate reason to fight the Alliance instead? Right now I just want to surrender to the Alliance. In a Dawn of the Apes like scenario it wouldn't be fun fighting the Alliance. Why should the story be written in such a way that the Horde has to feel bad to fight the Alliance? Why can't the Horde have any victimization or righteous indignation?

This pretty much.


The Horde playerbase wants to -enjoy- the game and has a right to.

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trickster (Post 1172960)
That's why I say it SHOULD be like this and why Blizzard should learn from the movie instead of going on with the current bullshit story they are developping.

Continuing to miss the point.

Being Caesar in that scenario is not fun, the constant goal is to try and make peace and stop the stupid fighting, that's a chore no horde player wants.

I want to be able to hate the alliance.

EDIT2:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trickster (Post 1172960)

Because that's how the story's been written for the past 20 years. Duh... You propose we just retcon/ignore all of that? Please bring pertinent answers to the thread and go do your trolling/exagerated victimisation elsewhere.



Yeah I think we're done here. Sorry the Horde doesn't want to be your bitch and brood about how awful we were to attack you Trickster.

Trickster 07-27-2014 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl (Post 1172962)
This pretty much.


The Horde playerbase wants to -enjoy- the game and has a right to.

I don't see why they wouldn't enjoy it. I mean, the Humans also did a lot of shit in DPA. It's just that the Apes officially started it and they are bitter about it.

Quote:

Continuing to miss the point.

Being Caesar in that scenario is not fun, the constant goal is to try and make peace and stop the stupid fighting, that's a chore no horde player wants.

I want to be able to hate the alliance.
Result being the Alliance now gets that role, peace at all cost, in an even more contrived way.

Quote:

Yeah I think we're done here. Sorry the Horde doesn't want to be your bitch and brood about how awful we were to attack you Trickster.
Because they shouldn't be remorseful? Guess they were right ot attack. How preposterous of me to think people should regret their bad actions.

PajamaSalad 07-27-2014 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trickster (Post 1172960)
Because that's how the story's been written for the past 20 years. Duh... You propose we just retcon/ignore all of that? Please bring pertinent answers to the thread and go do your trolling/exagerated victimisation elsewhere.

I did give you an answer. I disagreed with you in strong terms. I don't want to feel bad about fighting the Alliance. That isn't fun for me.

Trickster 07-27-2014 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pajamasalad (Post 1172965)
I did give you an answer. I disagreed with you in strong terms. I don't want to feel bad about fighting the Alliance. That isn't fun for me.

Ok then, what do you propose? Go on.

PajamaSalad 07-27-2014 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trickster (Post 1172966)
Ok then, what do you propose? Go on.

The Alliance should be more mean and the orcs/forsaken should be less mean.

Trickster 07-27-2014 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pajamasalad (Post 1172967)
The Alliance should be more mean and the orcs/forsaken should be less mean.

And what would the Horde's perspective of their past deeds be?

The Alliance should be more mean. Races like Night Elves and Worgen were supposed to be there for that. Id totally be in for the Alliance suddently slaughtering innocent Tauren in retaliation. What I'm saying here is just that the Horde should be resigned to fight because they know they made a mistake and started it all. Make the Alliance grayier (is that a word?) after, I don't care.

Mutterscrawl 07-27-2014 08:19 PM

If you're going to go "Well if you don't like my idea you must support the way things are now" There's not much point discussing this.

Trickster 07-27-2014 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl (Post 1172969)
If you're going to go "Well if you don't like my idea you must support the way things are now" There's not much point discussing this.

Did you read the post above? Because I feel that's what you want.

Mutterscrawl 07-27-2014 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trickster (Post 1172970)
Did you read the post above? Because I feel that's what you want.

That wasn't up yet when I posted, but I'm still not enthused with that being a horde theme in general, slap it to one or two characters or leaders? Sure.

The whole Horde? That'd get old fast.

Trickster 07-27-2014 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl (Post 1172973)
That wasn't up yet when I posted, but I'm still not enthused with that being a horde theme in general, slap it to one or two characters or leaders? Sure.

The whole Horde? That'd get old fast.

Oh. My apologies if that wasn't clear. I don't want to see every Orc being all "we screwed, fuck". I just think Thrall should pull that kind of reasoning instead of being all like "the Draenei, our worst ennemies, are now on Azeroth". You know, just show that at least some Horde characters aknowledge their fault instead of just ignoring what they did.

PajamaSalad 07-27-2014 08:33 PM

Most of the current Horde wasn't part of the Old Horde. The forsaken and blood elves both fought them. The tauren and trolls were off doing something else. It wouldn't make for a good theme for the entire faction.

Trickster 07-27-2014 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pajamasalad (Post 1172979)
Most of the current Horde wasn't part of the Old Horde. The forsaken and blood elves both fought them. The tauren and trolls were off doing something else. It wouldn't make for a good theme for the entire faction.

Garrosh's Horde would work just the same as the current one. And regarding the faction theme, read above.

Mutterscrawl 07-27-2014 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trickster (Post 1172977)
Oh. My apologies if that wasn't clear. I don't want to see every Orc being all "we screwed, fuck". I just think Thrall should pull that kind of reasoning instead of being all like "the Draenei, our worst ennemies, are now on Azeroth". You know, just show that at least some Horde characters aknowledge their fault instead of just ignoring what they did.

Well yeah that's fine.

Trickster 07-27-2014 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl (Post 1172984)
Well yeah that's fine.

Just a misunderstanding then.

Drusus 07-28-2014 05:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pajamasalad (Post 1172959)
Why can't the Horde have a legitimate reason to fight the Alliance instead? Right now I just want to surrender to the Alliance. In a Dawn of the Apes like scenario it wouldn't be fun fighting the Alliance. Why should the story be written in such a way that the Horde has to feel bad to fight the Alliance? Why can't the Horde have any victimization or righteous indignation?

Because having a reason would probably involve losing something.

For all the Horde fanboys who like to call the Alliance whiners, they tend to shriek even louder at the slightly hint they're going to take a loss. Once Siege of Orgrimmar was announced the fanbabies went absolutely ballistic.

Westlee 07-28-2014 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl (Post 1172956)
Thing is the Alliance -would- forgive, and the Orcs don't feel all that guilty. Ever.

Except Thrall and the Frostwolves.


Because Most orcs still think the internment camps were about murdering them slowly or enslaving them.

Thrall and the Frost Wolves never felt guilty.

Drisden 07-28-2014 10:52 AM

Isn't the Horde being victimised right now? With Garrosh being the scapegoat for Horde crimes?
I watched the movie yesterday and I see your parallel. Actually, I thought about Orcs vs Humans when Koba screwed everything up and I thought that, maybe, the Alliance retaliating with full force might not be the best idea just because an asshole screwed things up. In the end it would just perpetuate the conflict.

Kellick 07-28-2014 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drusus (Post 1173154)
Because having a reason would probably involve losing something.

For all the Horde fanboys who like to call the Alliance whiners, they tend to shriek even louder at the slightly hint they're going to take a loss. Once Siege of Orgrimmar was announced the fanbabies went absolutely ballistic.

Honestly, there was a great deal more whining from the Alliance player base when the Siege of Orgrimmar was announced, all the way through to the end, because it was seen as more of the same Horde bias they'd been bitching about.

Westlee 07-28-2014 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kellick (Post 1173283)
Honestly, there was a great deal more whining from the Alliance player base when the Siege of Orgrimmar was announced, all the way through to the end, because it was seen as more of the same Horde bias they'd been bitching about.

And they were proven right. You Horde players complain about the Horde suddenly being evil, that there was some bait-and-switch that never actually took place and that you've been wronged horribly. Rather than embrace the Horde for what it is and having FUN with it, you delude yourself into thinking the Horde was ever anything other than a marauding destructive force for evil.

It really doesn't matter whether it's the NPCs or the players. It's incredibly annoying when the Horde act like they're victims.


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