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C9H20 08-23-2019 04:28 PM

Europe wasn't clear cut for fun, it was clear cut to make room for agriculture and industry which is what made it Europe. Same for the US. Now other nations want to develop. I hate the degradation of the environment too but I don't think we have a moral leg to stand on when we want to criticize them.

As for the Russian fires, I am pointing out how Western media is highly biased and hypocritical which is why you don't know about this already.

Anyhow, not a good year for forests.

Anansi 08-23-2019 04:40 PM

Surely the miracles of modern science may offer a better path to 'development' than slash and burn agriculture.

C9H20 08-23-2019 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anansi (Post 1625554)
Surely the miracles of modern science may offer a better path to 'development' than slash and burn agriculture.

Sure. Now go develop the Brazilian economy with the miracle of science.

... yeah.

I hope I don't come off as too much of a downer but that is the cold hard truth. People there want a better life and no one will give them one and so they cut some trees. And as long the extent of our support is frowny faces online they will continue to do so, until it stops being economically viable anyway but who knows what will be left of the Amazon by then : /

Anansi 08-23-2019 06:00 PM

There's more developed countries could be doing to stabilize and uplift those less fortunate. If they did, perhaps the poor farmers of south america wouldn't need to destroy the few remaining old forests. But I am not blind to the fact that positive change is vanishingly unlikely and the rich don't give a shit and the poor are given no choice but to survive however they can.

Aneurysm 08-24-2019 05:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by C9H20 (Post 1625551)
I hate the degradation of the environment too but I don't think we have a moral leg to stand on when we want to criticize them.

I don't buy that. We know the consequences of widespread deforestation. And we realize the negative consequences of destroying one of the world's richest and most important eco-systems. Us ciriticizing and being appalled by development in the Amazon is self-preservation, it hasn't to do with morality.

And the "Since you fucked up in the past you don't have the right to tell me not to fuck up now"-argument doesn't hold any water to me. Yes, Europeans deforested a great deal of their regional forestlands, but they also did that largely during the middle-ages, not during a post-industrialized age of globalized economies. We know better today. And in an ideal world we would act better too.

C9H20 08-24-2019 08:58 AM

You don't have to convince me Annie, I am already on board.

But I can definitely see the argument made by countries undergoing development when they say how many forests were used for fuel and to make room for agriculture, how many fields were strip mined to make Europe (and other places) industrialize but now they are supposed to feel bad about doing the same thing? And yes it did mainly happen during industrialization and the resulting population boom, not that it happening "in the middle ages" destroys the argument.

So yeah, convincing the people doing this will be a lot harder than convincing me.

Lon-ami 08-25-2019 03:33 AM

Holy shit the levels of ignorance in this thread.
  • The number of fires haven't gone considerably up or down this year compared to the last decade.
  • The big fire everyone was talking about started in Bolivia, not Brazil.
  • The Amazon isn't the "Earth's lung", that position belongs to the oceans.
  • The pollution of the oceans is the major ecological problem we're facing now, but all we are supposed to care about is the climate change bullshit.
You have to be really braindead not to notice the media is just throwing shit at Bolsonaro.

Quote:

Originally Posted by C9H20 (Post 1625547)
Well most of Europe and a lot of NA has been clear cut too, us showing up now and wagging our finger at them is more than a bit hypocritical. Ofc no one is suggesting we send some kind of stipend to Brazil to preserve the rainforest despite economic reasons not to, that costs money.

Also it is funny how almost no one in the West cared about the massive, smoke clouds bigger than Europe, forest fires that happened in Russia recently.

Why use your brain, when you can let the TV use it for you.

We had one of our worst fires in Spain this year, and the media spent more time shitting on Bolsonaro than in our own real problems.

Aneurysm 08-25-2019 05:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lon-ami (Post 1625562)
[*]The Amazon isn't the "Earth's lung", that position belongs to the oceans.

It's true that plankton and shit in the oceans produce more oxygen than the rain forests. But then on the other hand the Amazon is still a considerable contributor to our globe, being by far the largest producer and filterer of breathable air on land, so I wouldn't completely rule it out as being a significant part of Earth's respiratory system. Especially given the surface area it takes up compared to the oceans. So don't try and make it out like the Amazon isn't a pretty big fucking deal and that it wouldn't be in our best interest that it's preserved.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lon-ami (Post 1625562)
[*]The pollution of the oceans is the major ecological problem we're facing now, but all we are supposed to care about is the climate change bullshit.

Pollution in the oceans goes hand in hand with this climate change bullshit. We're supposed to care about all of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lon-ami (Post 1625562)
You have to be really braindead not to notice the media is just throwing shit at Bolsonaro.

Really? I've pretty much seen no significant coverage of this at all on our mainstream media outlets, and the few I've seen just focus on the possible global climate impacts, not so much Bolsonaro's policies or the underlying causes of the deforestation and consecutive fires.

Trump trying to buy Greenland, on the other hand, has gotten hours of coverage, several articles written on the matter, and seems to be a way more interesting thing to talk about than the ruination of our largest rain forests.

Mutterscrawl 08-25-2019 09:21 AM

I was gonna jump in at Lonami but yeah, Annie pretty much already covered it.

BaronGrackle 08-26-2019 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lon-ami (Post 1625562)
We had one of our worst fires in Spain this year

Which rainforest?

Krainz 08-27-2019 09:13 AM

Welp

BaronGrackle 08-27-2019 10:54 AM

Right, so I was way off in guessing the Brazilian indigenous might've been some of the farmers deforesting. They're the ones getting cleared out of the way, so to speak.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn...til/index.html

Kakwakas 08-27-2019 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaronGrackle (Post 1625596)
Right, so I was way off in guessing the Brazilian indigenous might've been some of the farmers deforesting. They're the ones getting cleared out of the way, so to speak.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn...til/index.html

Most likely another feature, not a bug. Despite claiming his positions and policies totally have nothing to do with what's going on, Ballsnero is also refusing aid to help stop the fires.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a9079831.html

Krainz 08-27-2019 05:12 PM

The Minister of the Environment, Ricardo Salles, just said in an interview a few days ago that Brazil doesn't have the necessary funds to fight the fires and save the Amazon.

And then the president refuses the monetary help.

There's no way to defend that.

CoDimus the Staunch 08-28-2019 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by C9H20 (Post 1625551)
Europe wasn't clear cut for fun, it was clear cut to make room for agriculture and industry which is what made it Europe. Same for the US. Now other nations want to develop. I hate the degradation of the environment too but I don't think we have a moral leg to stand on when we want to criticize them.

As for the Russian fires, I am pointing out how Western media is highly biased and hypocritical which is why you don't know about this already.

Anyhow, not a good year for forests.


Yes, Europe does not have a leg to stand on in this respect.

That does not change the fact that European factions that are opposed to what Europe has done or is doing can still call out others for indulging in the same mistake.


The British Labour party wants to, amongst other things, ban fracking, replace jobs in left-behind Britain that were lost when Thatcher closed the coal mines with State-sponsored renewable power ones, and more.


For a Tory to call out Bolsenaro would be hypocrisy, but not for a Labourite. And I'm just using a British example, in light of the fact that Labour is rarely the party in power and outside of Tony Blair, has generally stuck to its principles when in office.

Reinhardt 08-28-2019 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krainz (Post 1625601)
The Minister of the Environment, Ricardo Salles, just said in an interview a few days ago that Brazil doesn't have the necessary funds to fight the fires and save the Amazon.

And then the president refuses the monetary help.

There's no way to defend that.

Your signature image is on point.

Mutterscrawl 09-10-2019 12:01 PM

https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/3...a-nation-state

In what fucking universe is it possible for a company to levy taxes?

That's just...

What the Fuck?

What the FUCK?

Reinhardt 09-10-2019 12:05 PM

Shit clickbait.
Amazon is getting taxed on income.
It raises prices by the same amount to maintain margins.
Place here a Pikachu surprised meme.

Kakwakas 09-10-2019 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reinhardt (Post 1625737)
Shit clickbait.
Amazon is getting taxed on income.
It raises prices by the same amount to maintain margins.
Place here a Pikachu surprised meme.

And now their competitors are better off.

Krainz 09-10-2019 03:20 PM

Today the sky where I live was orange-greyish throughout the whole day.

I've been sneezing nonstop and my throat has been feeling oddly allergic.

Also it has been stupidly hot for this time of the year.

https://i.imgur.com/iAnSAwX.png

Original post: https://www.instagram.com/p/B2O5e-3A33Z/


EDIT: family members who live in nearby cities are reporting seeing the same on top of also having the smell of smoke throughout the city

C9H20 09-11-2019 08:16 AM

Rough.

I wish people were more farsighted and saw the future value of an untouched Amazon, with potential cures from plants and animals, the value of said animals themselves and the (tourist attracting) beauty of one of the most unique places in the world.

But as I've said before I can't blame the people too much who just want some money now not in a 100 years.

Kakwakas 09-12-2019 11:51 AM

"A Brazilian government official who spent more than a decade working to protect indigenous people in the Amazon from loggers, miners and other threats to their way of life has been killed.

Maxciel Pereira dos Santos was shot twice in the head in front of his family in an apparent execution, according to a union that represents such workers.

Mr Santos had spent more than 12 years working for Funai, the National Indian Foundation, which is a Brazilian government body that defends the interests of indigenous people."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...bes-shot-dead/

Krainz 09-12-2019 04:05 PM


Kakwakas 10-07-2019 08:30 PM

Are you guys ready for another genocide for Turks to deny?



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