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Insipid_Lobster 02-20-2015 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yaskaleh (Post 1266114)
Civilian terrorism, as in terroristic attacks upon the civilian population, is always evil.

But this is essentially what this is; i'm all for self-determination and no doubt everyone else here is, but the lines between self-determination and external influences have become so blurred with the rebels in Ukraine. And it all stems from a puppet-oligarch doing a 180 on a policy to appease his puppeteer.

Yaskaleh 02-20-2015 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Insipid_Lobster (Post 1266120)
But this is essentially what this is; i'm all for self-determination and no doubt everyone else here is, but the lines between self-determination and external influences have become so blurred with the rebels in Ukraine. And it all stems from a puppet-oligarch doing a 180 on a policy to appease his puppeteer.

Ehm, the rebels aren't the ones shelling and bombing the civilian population. I dare you to go to Donetsk and claim that.

SmokeBlader 02-20-2015 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yaskaleh (Post 1266138)
Ehm, the rebels aren't the ones shelling and bombing the civilian population. I dare you to go to Donetsk and claim that.

We could ask Kir instead.

Yaskaleh 02-20-2015 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmokeBlader (Post 1266140)
We could ask Kir instead.

Then do so.

Also, this is hilarious:

Quote:

Judging by the "LifeNews" report on February 19, 2015 about Novorossia fighters collecting trophies after Ukrainian troops withdrew from Debaltsevo, among other finds, NAF received one whole complex of LCMR (Lightweight Counter-Mortar Radar), supplied by the United States as part of military assistance to Ukraine.


The U.S. has decided to send to the armed forces of Ukraine 20 LCMR radars, the first three of which were delivered in November 2014. According to the information, received by our blog from the most serious sources, soon after the transfer one of the stations was damaged during transportation, and then another station was damaged by artillery fire of the enemy at the first attempt of its combat use by the Ukrainians. We can assume that the LCMR radar, abandoned by the Ukrainian troops in Debaltsevo is the third of this ill-fated first batch of the three stations.
Edit:
The Yats police state is working hard:

http://www.regnum.ru/news/polit/1897178.html
Quote:

Translated from Russian by J.Hawk

During the February 18 session of the government, Prime Minister Yatsenyuk promised to deport all opponents of the “Wall” (or the “European Frontier”, as Yatsenyuk prefers to call it) on the Russo-Ukrainian border.

“Anyone who is against fortifying the border and the security line will get a one-way ticket to that side of the border. This applies to pro-Russian political forces which have raised their heads within the walls of the parliament, and the pro-Russian and anti-Ukrainian forces which are trying to create chaos in the country,” said Yatsenyuk.

Incidentally, deportation of Ukrainian citizens is expressly forbidden by the Constitution. Nevertheless, judging by what’s happening, it’s not an obstacle to the government. While during the summer the Prime Minister “merely” called the participants in socio-economic protests “FSB agents,” today anyone who is unhappy with or opposed to the official propaganda faces hard time in prison.

[A summary of individual cases follows]

--A 23-year-old inhabitant of Zaporozhhye posted leaflets criticizing high prices, the war, and the Maidan. He was arrested on suspicion of creating a terrorist organization. His sister is active within DPR. He was placed under arrest, he faces 8-15 years in prison if convicted.

--A National Guard soldier was sentenced to 9 years for treason. His “crime was to attempt to receive a Russian citizenship. He was accused of contacting Russian secret services through social networks, although no proof was shown in court.

--Ruslan Kotsaba, a journalist, was arrested for airing a statement against mobilization without introducing martial law first, and faces treason charges. According to Poroshenko, additional 19 people have been arrested for the same “crime.” The SBU has started four thousand (!) similar cases. In 78 cases, the individuals being investigated stand accused of treason.

--An inhabitant of Zaporozhye made a cash transfer to a DPR account in June 2014. In February 2015 the prosecutor’s office launched an investigation, accusing the individual of aiding and abetting terrorism.

--SBU investigators are accusing a college instructor of interfering with military operations. His “crime” consists of a few Facebook posts critical of military operations, for which he faces 5-8 years in prison. There are more cases of people being arrested for activity on social networks with every day.

Ragnahar 02-20-2015 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feltongue (Post 1266060)
It's Bild. They're the German equivalent of The Sun or Gawker, so polemic hyperbole is to be expected. But, yeah, some representatives, especially McCain, apparently went almost full retard but the German population doesn't really care, we're mostly chuckling about his behaviour and see his chest thumping more directed at Obama than at us and we're fairly happy how Merkel handled it.

Senators aren't people.

Noitora 02-20-2015 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ragnahar (Post 1266202)
Senators aren't people.

This needs to be a rule.

Dithon1 02-20-2015 01:06 PM

Turkey chose China's HQ-9 over the USA's MIM-104 Patriots.

Probably a cost thing; China let Turkey produce their design locally, while the US did not.

Still not a NATO-integrated design, though.

Ganishka 02-20-2015 04:27 PM

Why the ideology of Marxism needs to be exterminated:


PajamaSalad 02-20-2015 04:31 PM

Would it be fair to say that Russia is doing more for their loyalists in Ukraine than Europe/US is for the Kiev government? Russia isn't just an angry mindless animal. They know what they are doing is provocative. There could be a Russia forum somewhere where people debate whether or not Russia sending economic or military aid could provoke a war. Where Russian troops in Ukraine could provoke a response from the west. Despite all of that they did it and war did not come. Is the Russian government war mongering right now?

It isn't just Ukraine here that is at stake. Ukraine wasn't invaded because it did anything to deserve it. There isn't a lesson for the other Eastern European states to learn from Ukraine to avoid being invaded by Russia. A European war does hit Europe harder but the United States has been dragged into a European war in the past after trying to stay out of it. There are several cemeteries located across Europe for American service members that died during the World Wars. Not only are there humanitarian reasons to keep Ukraine sovereign but parochial ones as well.

Sometimes a more proactive and thorough approach can help reduce destruction and suffering down the line. Inaction isn't always the most peaceful road.

SmokeBlader 02-20-2015 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pajamasalad (Post 1266277)
A European war does hit Europe harder but the United States has been dragged into a European war in the past after trying to stay out of it.

Except American cities didn't end up like this.
http://ring.mithec.com/images2/40-49...0destroyed.jpg

Same thing would happen now. Your civies sit comfortable at home while we bite the pillow in case your government went freedom mode.

Yaskaleh 02-20-2015 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pajamasalad (Post 1266277)
Would it be fair to say that Russia is doing more for their loyalists in Ukraine than Europe/US is for the Kiev government? Russia isn't just an angry mindless animal. They know what they are doing is provocative. There could be a Russia forum somewhere where people debate whether or not Russia sending economic or military aid could provoke a war. Where Russian troops in Ukraine could provoke a response from the west. Despite all of that they did it and war did not come. Is the Russian government war mongering right now?

It isn't just Ukraine here that is at stake. Ukraine wasn't invaded because it did anything to deserve it. There isn't a lesson for the other Eastern European states to learn from Ukraine to avoid being invaded by Russia. A European war does hit Europe harder but the United States has been dragged into a European war in the past after trying to stay out of it. There are several cemeteries located across Europe for American service members that died during the World Wars. Not only are there humanitarian reasons to keep Ukraine sovereign but parochial ones as well.

Sometimes a more proactive and thorough approach can help reduce destruction and suffering down the line. Inaction isn't always the most peaceful road.

Two major errors of your reasoning.
1. If Russia entered ukraine they would do so the same they did in Georgia. with massive aerial superiority, crushing anything Ukraine could put forth.
2. They'd take Kiev within two days.

PajamaSalad 02-20-2015 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yaskaleh (Post 1266286)
Two major errors of your reasoning.
1. If Russia entered ukraine they would do so the same they did in Georgia. with massive aerial superiority, crushing anything Ukraine could put forth.
2. They'd take Kiev within two days.

Let's play a hypothetical game then. If everything I said was true would you support a response? Even if it is just military aid to Kiev?

Ragnahar 02-20-2015 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmokeBlader (Post 1266284)
Except American cities didn't end up like this.
http://ring.mithec.com/images2/40-49...0destroyed.jpg

Same thing would happen now. Your civies sit comfortable at home while we bite the pillow in case your government went freedom mode.

The question becomes how much worse would a war be if the countries strong enough to stop it preemptively play isolationist and allow certain powers to grow too strong. It's the most difficult question to answer when you ask how much you are willing to give up to an aggressor for peace. Just know that whenever another war breaks out, as it inevitably will at some point in my lifetime or my daughters or her daughters, no matter how bad it is, U.S. soldiers will bleed on European soil again.

Aneurysm 02-20-2015 05:13 PM

There's something poetic about Euro-American blood being spilled on European soil, as if it yearns to return home.

Ragnahar 02-20-2015 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aneurysm (Post 1266302)
There's something poetic about Euro-American blood being spilled on European soil, as if it yearns to return home.

Then let me bleed in Germany.

Aneurysm 02-20-2015 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ragnahar (Post 1266304)
Then let me bleed in Germany.

I'm afraid you're some 60 years too late. Unless Germany gets hit with crippling debts and crazy inflation again.

Ragnahar 02-20-2015 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aneurysm (Post 1266305)
I'm afraid you're some 60 years too late. Unless Germany gets hit with crippling debts and crazy inflation again.

I have a feeling when war finds Germany again it won't be the against us.

Noitora 02-20-2015 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ragnahar (Post 1266304)
Then let me bleed in Germany.

I'm going to lock you and PJ in a basement if you keep that talk up.

PajamaSalad 02-20-2015 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ragnahar (Post 1266300)
The question becomes how much worse would a war be if the countries strong enough to stop it preemptively play isolationist and allow certain powers to grow too strong. It's the most difficult question to answer when you ask how much you are willing to give up to an aggressor for peace. Just know that whenever another war breaks out, as it inevitably will at some point in my lifetime or my daughters or her daughters, no matter how bad it is, U.S. soldiers will bleed on European soil again.

People need to stop pretending that anyone that disagrees with their strategy wants war. Fire fighters don't like fires but they are more than willingly to risk their lives running into a burning building to save a stranger's life. It is a ridiculous line of reasoning. I don't even think Russia wants war. Putin just thinks he can use fear of war in order to expand his territory and influence for the long term. Russia has done more than the west has for the separatists and it hasn't caused any kind of war.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aneurysm (Post 1266302)
There's something poetic about Euro-American blood being spilled on European soil, as if it yearns to return home.

I think dying that far away from home and family is kind of horrifying.

Ragnahar 02-20-2015 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noitora (Post 1266307)
I'm going to lock you and PJ in a basement if you keep that talk up.

How about we three play spin the bottle? Either way I win.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pajamasalad (Post 1266308)
I think dying that far away from home and family is kind of horrifying.

Please Lord, let me die under Dixie sky.

Aneurysm 02-20-2015 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ragnahar (Post 1266306)
I have a feeling when war finds Germany again it won't be the against us.

You've got a point. Next time will be a bizarro version of WWII, with the NewSSR trying to take over Europe and cleanse it from non-russkies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pajamasalad (Post 1266308)
I think dying that far away from home and family is kind of horrifying.

You're not a poetic person, are you?

Thunderbraid 02-20-2015 05:29 PM

we could always go burn the white house down again if you fancy?

PajamaSalad 02-20-2015 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thunderbraid (Post 1266312)
we could always go burn the white house down again if you fancy?

But I just want Britain to notice me!

Ragnahar 02-20-2015 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pajamasalad (Post 1266314)
But I just want Britain to notice me!

Don't worry, the most they could do is a hashtag campaign, if Grandpa Britain can figure out how use these new fangled computerized typing machines.

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/fvUxizk1x3c/hqdefault.jpg

Taintedmage 02-20-2015 07:00 PM

I'm pretty sure Russia's main issue is spheres of influence.

The idea that Ukraine would want to join the EU rubbed Russia the wrong way as Russia still sees Ukraine as being in its orbit.

If you think about it, the entire thing is little more than a response against the expansion of the EU.

it's Putin saying, "stay the fuck off my turf" with Putin's "turf" being the old satellite states and the traditional Soviet sphere of influence.


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