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Old 02-21-2017, 03:11 PM
Ol'Yoggy Ol'Yoggy is offline

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Originally Posted by Aldrius View Post
She knows they're all going to die and that bit about the Protoss is a blatant lie. She doesn't even pretend that it isn't.

I'm not sure why you're typing in all caps. She in fact has no issue wiping out the people who were ultimately responsible for what happened to her. (She goes down to Tarsonis to ensure the deaths of the confederate leadership, she killed Rumm.) She's not above or beyond vengeance at all. I'd think she was pretty vicious (rather than actively apathetic and a big enabler) if she wanted to kill a bunch of civilians and soldiers for the sake of revenge.

Being a moralistic little girl is a bit different from being a heroic character. She's not a villain and I think Rebel Yell presents her as being very sympathetic, but she's definitely not especially moral.

Okay, apparently I need to be a little more firm about this.

I don't know why you think it's okay to make these reaching personal assertions about me over an internet debate about a video game. Stop it.

I have nothing to say to Genya. Their argument is basically 'Blizzard obviously agrees with us' as if that refutes my perspective. What the hell do I respond to that with? I disagree.

I'm tired of talking about the stupid 'everyone's an idiot!' aspect of Brood War. I don't agree with it, I've explained why about a THOUSAND times. It's a very tired conversation.

I also think it's incredibly rich that you're accusing me of being aggressive while you are CONSTANTLY confront me over this shit and bring up conversations I had YEARS ago when I had the AUDACITY to not agree with what what's-his-face on SCLegacy was saying and you think that means I was being disingenuous or something.

It's still mostly a story about a girl who's looking for someone to rescue her, and then who flips out when there isn't someone there ("let me hear your voice" is so cringe). That doesn't make it bad necessarily, but it is pretty sexist. And it's exacerbated by all the retconning in Wings of Liberty and Heart of the Swarm. She's much more independent in the original game, even in Rebel Yell.

Like, I don't even dislike the idea of what happens in Heart between her and Jim if it wasn't such a preoccupation of the story, but it really isn't earned at all as far as being a follow up to Brood War. (And if you're okay with that then... more power to you I guess?)

As for manufacturing reasons: not to like who? Heart of the Swarm Kerrigan? I mean. Not liking something is a subjective thing (as opposed to thinking something's bad). But no, I don't like Heart of the Swarm Kerrigan.

If you'd like to know why:

Heart of the Swarm Kerrigan, beyond everything else I could say about the quality of the writing and the inconsistencies with Brood War Kerrigan and being a retreat of that story is that she's... boring. I don't find Heart Kerrigan emotionally engaging, she's cathartic and she flips out at the slightest thing. She spends most of the game being moon-eyed for Jim Raynor and I find it incredibly annoying. Nothing she says is particularly funny or insightful or cool. It's a lot of her being outrageously self-righteous, pedantic and didactic.

She's really over the top I guess. But while the original game was kind of campy and fun, Heart of the Swarm is so emotionally constrained and suffocating. It's over the top in a way that I find embarrassing instead of entertaining.

She's also just way too omnipresent. She's playable in every mission, she's constantly talking in every cutscene. Everything she does is some absurd moral dilemma. It's just too much. Like people complain she's a Mary Sue in Brood War but at least Brood War takes a break from her once in a while. Even if she's a looming presence through out the story.

Nothing was better for me in Legacy of the Void than when Artanis disappeared on Ulnar and we got to follow Vorazun and Alarak for like 5 minutes. (Incidentally in hindsight I probably do hate Legacy Artanis more than I hate Heart Kerrigan, though that's not saying very much.)

Then there's the whole messianic aspect. Which Legacy of the Void (mainly the epilogue) made even worse. It's lathered on so damn thick.

And just to continue my endless rant: the supporting cast is bad too. For all the foibles of how Fenix and Raynor, Zeratul and Mengsk are written in Brood War (and I think particularly Zeratul has a pretty severe personality switch from Vanilla to Brood War which gets even worse in SC2), they're at least interesting characters unlike Iszha, Zagara, Stukov and Dehaka. Who all have a single gimmick and man, do they ever stick to that gimmick through out the story. (Did you know Dehaka likes essence?)

DuGalle makes for a capable and engaging antagonist without even having to actually show up until the very end. Because hey, we spent a previous story getting to know him, we got different perspectives on what was happening which keeps things fresh. The relationship between Zeratul and Kerrigan is explored in Brood War -- even if you hate it and think it's bad and doesn't make sense hell, even if it IS bad. Heart of the Swarm instead just uses him to unload exposition and introduce a new location and move the plot along. And then he disappears into the shadows as if he was never there at all.

Overall it's just so plot heavy. And it's a really straight-forward plot at that.
1.) It's a lie she believes herself. Also when she finds out about Tarsonis she says "the Confederates on Antiga was bad enough...." showing that even months later she's still deeply upset about it. She doesn't defy Mengsk about it but she IS disturbed by it, so no she isn't interested in Revenge particularly. You're kinda reaching at this point dude.

2.) It's based on observation. There are numerous times when you've debated people and they respond and you either just repeat yourself or dodge the issue entirely.

3.) Genya's argument is more "you act as if your perspective is the one true one. Since I didn't that doesn't necessarily make it true." Translation: don't be a sanctimonious jackass and claim your interpretation is the only logical one while all others are stupid.

4.) As above THAT'S why I keep bringing them up. Not that you disagree but that you're kind of a weasel about it saying "Well that's just your opinion man." or "You are so totally wrong this is why" and completely ignore the meat of what's actually being said.

5.) The people I bring up ALSO criticize Starcraft 2. I myself have noted problems with it (fuck I posted a argument of how it could have been better written several times.). The difference is that they're consistent about it. They don't give brood war and vanilla a pass just because it was their game growing up. You do. Constantly. Many of the problems you slam Starcraft 2 for ARE in the original game as well, but you have no problem overlooking them.

6.) Except that they're trying to actually develop her to be more than "snidely whiplash." Her caring about Jim is given a perfectly believable motivation, there are instances where it takes a break (he doesn't come up on Kaldir for instance). Fuck you seem to view "displays more than one emotions or changes her mindset over the course of the game" as "mood swings." Kerrigan actually CHANGES over the course of the story, which you seem to have a problem. Rather than being "emotionally constricted and suffocating" it's exploring more. I found Kerrigan engaging enough, and that she shows actual signs of intelligence and insight.

The REAL reason I think you dislike her is that you locked into BW Kerrigan as the one true Kerrigan and hate the idea of her evolving past it. Heart tries to show more of her (and since it's HER story she has every right to be in all the cutscenes). Kerrigan undergoes more development in Heart of the Swarm than in all of Brood War and I for one applaud it.

7.) Uh they DO have character traits. Stukov is adrift and trying to find a purpose. He gains one fighting with the swarm. Za'gara learns the finer points of leadership and is being groomed to take over the swarm one day. Izsha's story was left on the cutting room floor but had it been included it probably would have dealt with issues like identity, and facing your past.

I agree that Kerrigan and Zeratul could have been better but I still feel that overall you're being kind of disingenuous in your criticism.

Last edited by Ol'Yoggy; 02-21-2017 at 03:22 PM..
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