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Old 09-07-2017, 04:40 AM
Lon-ami Lon-ami is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
So let's forget about racism and holocaust for a moment...

There's clearly a distinction to be made between the fascists whose fascism was purely domestic, and those whose fascism/nazism was DOCTRINELY DEPENDENT on invading neighbors with no foreseeable end and triggering the rest of the world. The latter was the case with Italy and Germany. That's why they were doomed.
Forget? You missed the point about the blood price?

You're ignoring all the previous years before the war, were Germany went from a shithole into a world power. I don't care what happened next, it's not the point of this conversation. Look at other examples with other countries that didn't get into wars if that's what you care about.

Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
Yes, but Germany was also racialist, hyper-nationalist, and imperialist. Same with Italy and it's pseudo-Roman imperialism. Yet, these traits are not inherent to the core of Fascism, racial and ethnic imperialism really came only after Hitler, and in the beginning, Fascism was far more culture oriented.

Let's look at a hypothetical scenario. Say we had this fascist state, somewhat like Lon-ami described before. Fascist, but oriented solely inwards, representatives actually genuine, not after power or money, and very importantly, able to achieve autarky on its own, without any expansion. Would it be a pleasant place to live? Absolutely not if you were a liberal or a member of a group deemed problematic. But would it be effective? I have to say yes there. In a brutal, cold, absolutely uncaring way, but yes. Now, would it, once the situation allowed it, turn towards democracy as Lon-ami suggested? Hard to say. Perhaps under a very specific set of circumstances. But even in that case, I doubt it'd be a liberal democracy, more likely a conservative/authoritarian one.
This, someone who gets it at last.

I think many of you are blinded with the typical "nazis were bad hurr durr". Yeah no shit. You're missing the point completely though, since you're looking at them from a "state of peace" perspective. You've always have a good life, and you can't even imagine what's like to live like shit, thus you don't understand how desperate people thinks. To make things worse, imagine that aside from those problems, you have a totalitarian force (communism, religious cults, etc) that is trying to take over.

Fascism, if implemented now, would be much worse than democracy. But democracy is going down the toilet step by step each day, with riots, unemployment, criminals getting free passes, etc. At this rate, it will be more desirable than democracy for a lot of people, and then there's no turning back.

What makes fascism dangerous is that IT WORKS. It's a cold machine that treats people like cattle. Now, animals live better free in the wild, but what if the wild turns into a shithole? You'd kill for a spot in the zoo, where there's food and a warm bed. How do you think civilization first started, if not with tyrants?

That's why fascism and authoritarian dictators have genuine support by the population, because they're desperate, and it's a good solution. When you're hungry you don't give a damn about anything else, you just want to be safe. Democracy is supposed to be better, an evolution, because it can achieve the same things, except with personal freedoms. But when democracy fails (as it's doing), what do you think it's gonna happen? Calling desperate Trump/Brexit/etc supporters names and ignoring their problems is a good example of how you get fascism. You either start listening, or we'll lose the peace and the rights we have now. And I don't think anyone here wants to live in a world like that.

In Spain, after the dictatorship and the transition ended, socialists held power for 16 years. We went from fascism to moderate socialism, so I do believe patience works. People who support authoritarianism want peace, once they get peace, they want to go back to normal. Of course, the European right is almost lefty in comparison to the USA's, but still.

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