View Single Post
  #38  
Old 12-30-2013, 12:25 AM
Trickster Trickster is offline

Elune
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Trickster's Mighty Keep
Posts: 7,358

Alliance Flag

Quote:
Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
Need I point out that Sylvanas never explicitly promised not to hurt Garithos? They worked together to beat the dreadlords, he got his city back, and then she promptly killed him and took it. Technically in having her forces collaborate with his in reclaiming the capital she fulfilled her obligations in their whole arrangement (even to the point that she's outside the gates when she has him killed. Yep, in an ironic twist she even personally left the city before betraying him and seizing it herself); that doesn't make her any less of a backstabber for turning on him when it was done.

In the same way, the Alliance turning on the Horde rebellion would paint them (in the Horde's eyes especially) as capitalizing on Garrosh's defeat to betray them all, and so make them seem untrustworthy during any future interactions.
Well yeah, technically no backstabbing was done on Sylvanas' part and backstabbing Garithos cannot be held against her in my opinion. It sure is a dick move but that kind of stuff happens. Just like that kind of stuff can happen. And it's not like the Alliance is viewed in a positive manner by the Horde, rebel or not, anyway. Even the Blood Elves do not like them much at that point, yet diplomacy is still possible between them and the Alliance just like it would be possible between the Goblins/Taurens and the Alliance. Trolls, I do not know what to think to be honest. I feel they would fight until the end, with the Horde or the Zandalari.

So I don't really think that it would play much on the Horde's minds when negociations would come. The Goblins certainly would care, the Blood Elves wouldn't really care all that much either. The only race who's perception of the event would really matter is the Tauren. And then it's free to your interpretation. personnally, I feel they could still be open to negociations once they see the Horde get disband.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
The orcs have taken a sizable hit, but they aren't nearly wiped out or "nonexistent"; Orgrimmar was specifically targeted to put an end to a war that spanned Kalimdor, the EK and Pandaria due to Garrosh and his closest subordinates being there; Garrosh and his elite guard were crushed, but there's nothing to suggest the rest of the Horde's armies - much less the rest of the global orcish population - had all withdrawn from the rest of Azeroth to Orgrimmar and therefore perished in the siege.

Not to mention your whole hypothetical scenario still entails an awful lot of assuming that if this or that race doesn't play ball, the Alliance can just cavalierly exterminate them out of hand.
I don't think there are many Orcs left in Pandaria now. The ones there were msotly Garrosh supporters and they retreated to Orgrimmar. They also weren't numerous in the Eastern Kingdoms too. Same goes for Northrend, with phantom garrisons and all that. So you are left with Kalimdor where most Orcs are in Durotar and the Barrens. I would expect many to go fight in Orgrimmar since they would probably be interested in freeing their own city. So let's assume the Alliance's first move is to kill every Orc in Orgrimmar. There aren't much more. Sure some still live elsewhere but with Orgrimmar and Durotar/The Barrens gone soon after, the Orcs aren't really in a position of power anymore and that's what really matters. Seeing the Orc fall that much is what matters to push the Goblins and Blood elves to leave.

And if the Orcs are still many as you suggest, where do the complaints of needing to replenish the Orcs' numbers come from?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
Plus the rebellion was largely instigated by the other Horde races reacting to the orcs' mistreatment of them; so your assumption is that they'd trade Garrosh's tyranny for the Alliance's? Being routinely threatened with death by their own faction was the whole reason many of them rose up against Garrosh in the first place, and "join our faction or else" is just the same brand of tyranny given another face.

Those who see the stain of treachery don't care about whether they've done similar. If the Horde races don't think the Alliance can be trusted not to turn on them at the first opportunity, any more than the other way around, neither faction would feel compelled to trust the other as some sort of penance.
How would the Alliance mistreat them or force them to join? The Goblins would be the ones proposing to leave the Horde as it is in their nature. As for the Blood Elves, the Alliance would simply propose to start the talks again and to solve this whole Dalaran situation. Concessions could even be made. And if the Tauren did go for the peace route, they would just be left alone in Mulgore. There's no oppression involved and certainly no actions like the ones of Garrosh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
Moreover, it just seems patently stupid to couple ending the threat of the Horde with the killing of the racial leaders who aren't interested in continuing Garrosh's war against the Alliance and in fact want to end it ASAP. Once you've killed them, you've effectively declared that nobody in the Horde is safe regardless of their sympathies; that even the moderates who want no further quarrel with the Alliance are game for being slaughtered in order to make the point of "no more Horde".
I should have put the possible killing of the leaders part. That wouldn't necessarily happen. Or if fighting did occur in the throne room, Baine, Lor'Themar and possibly Gallywix could be spared. I feel like only Sylvanas would be in real danger. Maybe Vol'jin and Thrall too, depending on how they behave. In any cases, fighting would probably happen in the streets, with most leaders retreating so they wouldn't die (well, some of them could).

--------------------------------
In any cases, it's late. In fact, it's early at this point. We can continue this another time. Good night, sir ARM.

And out of curiosity, since the numbers are you birth date, I guess ARM is your initials? Or are you passionnated by arms and aggressive about it?

EDIT
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
I mean shit, the original ending of Siege of Orgrimmar was going to be the rebels telling the Alliance to fuck off and die.
Really? How do you know that? And why/when was it changed?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brojar View Post
i literally just shit my pants with rage
Reply With Quote