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Old 07-27-2013, 08:41 AM
Lord Eliphas Lord Eliphas is offline

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Location: The Eye of Terror
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He's right about accepting as necessity the heinously gigantic casualties he's assuming the Alliance will suffer in the process of squashing the rest of the Horde after Orgrimmar, likely because he in effect figures that conquering Azeroth and enslaving the Horde races will account for such losses when the Legion comes?

The same Garrosh who dropped a mana bomb on Theramore,
oh jeez, he bombed a military outpost. Someone call the Light and get help!

who initiated the invasion of Gilneas, who endorsed Sylvanas' behavior by not enforcing his ban on the Blight Plague, and who essentially resolved to either drive away or exterminate any and all Alliance races that dared to continue threatening or hindering the spread of the Horde's power.
Not the best plan, but he is thinking with realpolitik and knows that being with the Forsaken merits some benefits, but also that many will be adamantly opposed to he Horde. Rather than get rid of a still useful ally, exploit them to their fullest extent.

Take notice no race ever went up and said 'Hey, that's wrong!' when the Orcs were being annihilated and enslaved. They likely saw it as justice. And, to Garrosh, he shouldn't really care about those who stand in the way of the Horde.

The same Garrosh who, had he won, would have seen the Alliance races diminished to a state of slavery or worse.
And the Alliance wouldn't do it? Do human monarchies somehow have better moral standings because they have a religion called the Light?

Yeah, and the Jedi are totally against slavery dooood.

And so, Wrathion will completely misjudge the Alliance, and Varian in particular. He, like so many other prideful and domineering beings of great power, backed Varian because he thought Varian thought the way he did. In all likelihood, he probably thought Varian was just like Garrosh, only possessed of the necessary guile and cunning to keep the rest of the Alliance obedient and trusting of his methods and goals.
What makes Garrosh different from Varian. Tell me how a green dictator is different from a pink one.

Is the Alliance some type of progressive-good-willed state? Is it, really? Then, by all accounts, so is Napoleon's Empire. Brought order and prosperity and a new reign of laws. After the Wars, of course, but hey. They needed to happen.

It's kind of funny looking back on his 5.0-5.3 dialogue, and seeing how decisive and cocksure Wrathion pretends to be. He plays the part of the all-knowing puppet master quite convincingly, even though in 5.4 it will apparently turns out that he's thoroughly misjudging the motives and inclinations of his own puppets.
That doesn't really mean he's not a "master manipulator". I'll useKreia - Kreia is basically mad at the PC for not filling to her ideal sense of what the PC is to be. Someone to kill the will of the Force. In either case you fail her, but even after her smack down of you or the Jedi - she still manipulates the shit out of things.

Leading her former student to Telos to be killed by you and the Forces of the Republic, breaking her other student to serve as a test for you, using your allies against you - all while you come to her. Using their feelings and emotions over the exile , and even utilizing another character (Hanhar) to subvert your party. She's been manipulating everyone since the start, and never stops until she dies.

The very fact things didn't turn out for her concerning the PC does not mean she isn't a manipulator - it merely means she sees you have failed her. But, in the end, you still do everything she wants. Even if you don't realize it (the death of the Sith Lords (Her, Sion, Nihilus), continuing the Academy or going to search for Revan..reconnecting with the Force and having a better understanding of yourself. And, finally, making your decision without regret.).

Wrathion is no Kreia, not even by a long-shot, but this outburst is because of the failure you have invested something into for a long while, or invested so much into. He rages because he can't believe he made the choice he did (and none of the other military-savvy people or Alliance-savvy people can either). Varian is a fool, and apparently has eiher short-term memory loss or is going to the whims of a child who is comparable to Joffrey or Nero in terms of skill.

Imagine that - Tiberus bowing to Nero's demands. Ha.

I know it'll raise the hackles of some Anduin-hating folks, but I find it a kind of interesting contrast to see Anduin - who in spite of his convictions tends to express them rather naively and with measured uncertainty at times - sitting across from Wrathion, who's outwardly smarmy, adamant and completely certain of himself despite unwittingly miscalculating in the most important part of his plans. Anduin wants to see Alliance and Horde defending Azeroth side-by-side, while Wrathion just wants to see a conquering Alliance or Horde defending Azeroth and he doesn't care who it is beyond which side proves strong enough to crush the other and eliminate any potential for divisiveness.
But, Anduin's idea is pure-shit. Just as from ignoring the political history and the fact they are at war against each other - how would the Horde and Alliance actually fair as two sovereign organizations working with each other?

I take the example of the "Grand Alliance" (US, UK, and USSR) whom were working closely with each other and while had disagreemens - were usually settled, or to be settled, with Commissions and Advisories to make sure this shit woul never happen again.

Then we get the goddamn Cold War through the West not entirely liking the de-militarized, de-industrialized and neutral aspect of the plan for Germany. They were also hesitant to give the industries from the West to the USSR as per the deal to make sure just reparations wouldn't weigh down on Germany too much.

The USSR was constantly feeling betrayed due to the fact it was staying within the deals (e.g. Greece situation, though Tito was pissed off by this and did his own little thing), and their attempts at reconciliation usually worked to an extent (Berlin 'Blockade' did force the powers to reconvene to a Council of Foreign Ministers meeting to renounce the London Communique to form a Federal Republic of Germany out of Western Sectors. It, got no where as the West wouldn't budge and then we get a new FRG and it's new currency, damagin the already damaged economic situation of the East).

But, pardon me - that's modern. Let's look at the Crusaders and Soldiers of Baseilia Rhomanion. Helping the Komnenoi retake cities, and also pushing out those damn moslems. But, when there were successes, there was a sense of ambition. Why give back the Principlaities and cities to the Byzantines? They can't seem to hold their own, and they betrayed the Church! Why can't I become King of my own lands? And then a nice-deal went spiraling down into a moss-pit of Byzantine and Crusader intrigues along side the actual war against the Caliphates.

Why should the Horde and Alliance Alliance be anymore successful than others in our own reality that had far more in common and, better yet, were not at war with each other. It'd make no sense, and already this edges me with he complete and utter militarily-baffling move of giving the capital back to the enemy without getting anything in return.

The Prussians had the right idea of forcing your demands on a defeated enemy (Alasce-Loraine) and then giving the capital to the battered enemy. That's the whole fucking point.

Will I say there isn' a nice contrast? No, there is an appreciative contrast - but his military tactia would make it easily to pile-drive him if Napoleon, Julius, or even Grant or Lee were here. There are just some things and can't do, and no fucking pretty-boy Prince will make a difference.

I'd say the contrast is between two people whom, while knowing nothing of war and how to truly wage it, do have basic contrasting ideologies. One of peace to the sense of naivety, and the other of aggression and domination to the sense of naivety.

Plot convenience will get you no where of describing Anduin's character anymore than Obi wan supposedly being the calm and collective guy jumping out the window and Anakin not doing it.

Also it became more obvious that he wasn't really learning from his experiences in Pandaria.
Leave your Kung Fu Panda 2 philosophical bullshit at the door, where it can be in at least decent movie that still had one irk of simply forgiving the genocide of your people to achieve peace.
"Yeah, a sheltered and overly idealistic son of an absolutist monarch, set to inherit the whole nation and continue to rule it as an autocrat.

A beloved archetype of modern era!" - Kir the Gul'dan
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