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  #16326  
Old 09-18-2015, 10:07 AM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Originally Posted by Ragnahar View Post
This is all a consequence of the idea that the U.S. should never be allied, or work with a dictator. Obama took this stance against Assad along the line of thought of "Bad man, hurt little people", and that's where it stopped. Hussein was a bad, bad man, but served a purpose. We can either choose intervene in countries, and achieve our goals with dedication until the end, or we can be isolationists and allow diplomatic dies with bad people maintain conditions in our best interest regarding trade abroad. We cannot shake up entire regions on a moral whim to make our consciences clean because despite the new train of thought in the world your actions do have consequences and the responsibility for that is yours and yours alone.

French and others oil interests and pipelines forced us to intervene in Libya, under the guise of protecting civilians (More Nobel Peace Prize credentials), but those interests didn't align in Syria, which is why we watched them die from two sides.
My post was mostly facetious, but yeah, you're correct. The fall of a dictator creates a power vacuum, and people either need to be prepared to do the hard work of filling the vacuum (which will take millions of dollars and possibly decades), or allowing chaos to fester.
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  #16327  
Old 09-18-2015, 10:09 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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My post was mostly facetious, but yeah, you're correct. The fall of a dictator creates a power vacuum, and people either need to be prepared to do the hard work of filling the vacuum (which will take millions of dollars and possibly decades), or allowing chaos to fester.
Some people seem to think without that overarching authority there would still be peace and quiet.
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  #16328  
Old 09-18-2015, 10:20 AM
Ragnahar Ragnahar is offline

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My post was mostly facetious, but yeah, you're correct. The fall of a dictator creates a power vacuum, and people either need to be prepared to do the hard work of filling the vacuum (which will take millions of dollars and possibly decades), or allowing chaos to fester.
We've been effective at it, but American citizens have lost the sense of the long term, they think brashly and quickly, expecting immediate results. A 10 year long conflict was probably a third of what we needed to quell and rebuild Iraq and Afghanistan, if not more. Could have been done, but after Obama all the sacrifices of my friends will be for nothing. At the end of the day a soldiers life is just currency, and a war is an investment, when all is said and done, all of you are the ones who decide if our investment mattered.
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  #16329  
Old 09-18-2015, 10:26 AM
miffy23 miffy23 is offline

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We've been effective at it, but American citizens have lost the sense of the long term, they think brashly and quickly, expecting immediate results. A 10 year long conflict was probably a third of what we needed to quell and rebuild Iraq and Afghanistan, if not more. Could have been done, but after Obama all the sacrifices of my friends will be for nothing. At the end of the day a soldiers life is just currency, and a war is an investment, when all is said and done, all of you are the ones who decide if our investment mattered.
I agree with most of what you've said in your last few posts, you just stop short of acknowledging why there is zero interest in "finishing the job" - stability in the region is the last thing that is of geopolitical interest to the US. Neither a Democrat nor Republican government would change that foreign policy, influenced by the lobbies at work.
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  #16330  
Old 09-18-2015, 10:31 AM
Ragnahar Ragnahar is offline

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I'd just like to say this once miffy, to make something clear. When I take the time to be serious around here which is rarely, I tend to wish to use that time speaking with the adults in the room. Hlaalu, PJ, Genesis, Arm, Mertico, Tainted, being favorites. I'll never want you to stop replying to my posts to express your point of view, but this is just to explain why I will never waste my time replying to yours.
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  #16331  
Old 09-18-2015, 10:33 AM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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I'd just like to say this once miffy, to make something clear. When I take the time to be serious around here which is rarely, I tend to wish to use that time speaking with the adults in the room. Hlaalu, PJ, Genesis, Arm, Mertico, Tainted, being favorites. I'll never want you to stop replying to my posts to express your point of view, but this is just to explain why I will never waste my time replying to yours.
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  #16332  
Old 09-18-2015, 10:41 AM
miffy23 miffy23 is offline

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Originally Posted by Ragnahar View Post
I'd just like to say this once miffy, to make something clear. When I take the time to be serious around here which is rarely, I tend to wish to use that time speaking with the adults in the room. Hlaalu, PJ, Genesis, Arm, Mertico, Tainted, being favorites. I'll never want you to stop replying to my posts to express your point of view, but this is just to explain why I will never waste my time replying to yours.
I don't need your engagement or acknowledgement - my contribution to the discussion stands on its own for anyone that chooses to read it regardless.

Whether you choose to acknowledge and react to points that were made or not.

It is, however, a disturbing tendency here, that is mirrored in a lot of American society today, to block out radically averse opinion and ridicule and antagonize instead of discuss. Not saying you're doing this specifically here, but I think your mindset is reflected in this.

There are some loons that I will always reply to just to make sure their idiocy doesn't stand unopposed - that's just my own issue of not being able to leave well enough alone.

There are other people here that I drastically disagree with on many topics, but I believe one could lead a constructive discussion with nontheless.
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  #16333  
Old 09-18-2015, 10:41 AM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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You're damned if you intervene and you're damned if you don't.
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  #16334  
Old 09-18-2015, 10:43 AM
miffy23 miffy23 is offline

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You're damned if you intervene and you're damned if you don't.
You're damned if you "intervene" against a souvereign country militarily without provocation, regardless.
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  #16335  
Old 09-18-2015, 10:47 AM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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You're damned if you "intervene" against a souvereign country militarily without provocation, regardless.
This is one of few reasons why I can at least respect you on some level. Can't say the same for the "'murica stronk, giev muh freedums" squad.
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  #16336  
Old 09-18-2015, 10:48 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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You aren't hurting our feelings you know.
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  #16337  
Old 09-18-2015, 10:50 AM
Insipid_Lobster Insipid_Lobster is offline

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This is one of few reasons why I can at least respect you on some level. Can't say the same for the "'murica stronk, giev muh freedums" squad.
Why do people have to slap these jabs on the end of things, does it make you feel better about something?
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  #16338  
Old 09-18-2015, 10:52 AM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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Why do people have to slap these jabs on the end of things, does it make you feel better about something?
Nah, call it open hostility.

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You aren't hurting our feelings you know.
Hurt or unhurt, your feelings couldn't be more irrelevant.
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  #16339  
Old 09-18-2015, 10:53 AM
Insipid_Lobster Insipid_Lobster is offline

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Seems like a waste of energy to just be a mean guy on the internet imo.
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  #16340  
Old 09-18-2015, 10:53 AM
miffy23 miffy23 is offline

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This is one of few reasons why I can at least respect you on some level. Can't say the same for the "'murica stronk, giev muh freedums" squad.
The big American farce and probably biggest issue in American society is the perception driven by the media and lobbies at play that the numberous unprovoked wars of aggression, in the name of corporate profit and under the guise of fighting the faceless, anonymous enemy threatening the folks at home, are all somehow "justified" in hindsight.

Afghanistan was likely the only military "intervention" besides the Balkan conflict, out of the last 30-40 years, that had any semblance of a justification for it. And even then, an incredibly callous and chauvinistic one.

Americans like to pat themselves on the back and hold on to the belief that "at least the good guys did win, in some form, and some good came out of all this", whether they agreed with the original events or not (and something that is demonstrably not the case, as quite the opposite has happened in all of the affected countries). It's much harder to acknowledge that for the umpteenth time in American history, its public has been hoodwinked into flag-waving, warmongering hysteria for the benefit of a handful in the name of profit, and for the consolidation of power.
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  #16341  
Old 09-18-2015, 10:54 AM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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Seems like a waste of energy to just be a mean guy on the internet imo.
It's about as recreational as hitting a punching bag.
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  #16342  
Old 09-18-2015, 10:56 AM
Insipid_Lobster Insipid_Lobster is offline

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I like how people will go bat shit insane if you tar one group of people but are okay doing it to a complete other, if you're going to have some guns fucking stick to them entirely.

Edit: I mean American's are literally worse than polio, yeah woo, fuck the Anglo genes. Woo.
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  #16343  
Old 09-18-2015, 10:59 AM
miffy23 miffy23 is offline

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Originally Posted by Insipid_Lobster View Post
I like how people will go bat shit insane if you tar one group of people but are okay doing it to a complete other, if you're going to have some guns fucking stick to them entirely.

Edit: I mean American's are literally worse than polio, yeah woo, fuck the Anglo genes. Woo.
I'm American myself, and as an American it is a true test of endurance to contend with the American belief that we can do no wrong, and that to critisize or question your government and your military is "unpatriotic" and "unamerican".

For me personally, it is never about "the Americans" same way it is enver about "the Muslims" or "the" anything.

Generalizations and black vs white thinking never leads to anything.
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  #16344  
Old 09-18-2015, 10:59 AM
Kellick Kellick is offline

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I mean American's are literally worse than polio, yeah woo, fuck the Anglo genes. Woo.
Because you can't get vaccinated against Americans?
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  #16345  
Old 09-18-2015, 11:02 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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I like how people will go bat shit insane if you tar one group of people but are okay doing it to a complete other, if you're going to have some guns fucking stick to them entirely.
There is really no point in arguing with them. They are angry and refuse to see the light.
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  #16346  
Old 09-18-2015, 11:04 AM
Ragnahar Ragnahar is offline

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Because you can't get vaccinated against Americans?
I hear death works pretty well, and it and it's given out pretty freely in three different colors!



I forgot about Kellick (like Canada), I loves me some Kellick and Noitora, and the Lobster.
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  #16347  
Old 09-18-2015, 11:09 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Seems like a waste of energy to just be a mean guy on the internet imo.
Fuck you.
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  #16348  
Old 09-18-2015, 11:13 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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I hear death works pretty well, and it and it's given out pretty freely in three different colors!



I forgot about Kellick (like Canada), I loves me some Kellick and Noitora, and the Lobster.
We argued with these people before. Sometimes you can't change a wrong opinion through words alone because they will just never listen for what ever reason. When you combined the unreasonable and disruptive is when a more forceful response is needed.
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  #16349  
Old 09-18-2015, 11:14 AM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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There is really no point in arguing with them. They are angry and refuse to see the light.
I'd rather live in eternal darkness than have anything to do with your twisted "light".
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  #16350  
Old 09-18-2015, 11:25 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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We argued with these people before. Sometimes you can't change a wrong opinion through words alone because they will just never listen for what ever reason. When you combined the unreasonable and disruptive is when a more forceful response is needed.
You are literally wrong about literally everything and you damage the fabric of America.

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I forgot about Kellick (like Canada), I loves me some Kellick and Noitora, and the Lobster.
Why are you people obsessed with me?
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