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  #7826  
Old 03-02-2019, 09:23 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
Presumably it means he was extremely susceptible to being swayed by ideas that fed into his own preconceptions and rigidly opposed to those that didn't. So Garrosh was dangerously receptive to individuals like Malkorok who sold their methods and ideas as endorsements of his own, while at the same time being reflexively dismissive of anything people like Cairne, Vol'jin or Baine had to say that didn't reinforce what he already believed.

He was arguably like Arthas in those regards. Easily goaded. Poorly suited to dealing with frustration. Unstable temperament in the face of defeat. Neither of them responded well to conflicting ideas and opinions, either ignoring, dismissing or punishing such out of hand. Conversely, both of them ate it up far too readily whenever someone reaffirmed their preconceptions. Even when that meant (in Arthas' case) basically ignoring allies and being led around by enemies.
This just doesn't feel like 'weak core' to me, I've said it before and I'll say it again Arm, you're much better at rationalizing Blizz's words and actions than they actually are, and no one should have to bend over backwards the way you do to get that analysis.

Also, in universe, I'll never get over how they made Geyah have basically no influence on Garrosh.
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  #7827  
Old 03-02-2019, 09:43 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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This just doesn't feel like 'weak core' to me, I've said it before and I'll say it again Arm, you're much better at rationalizing Blizz's words and actions than they actually are, and no one should have to bend over backwards the way you do to get that analysis.

Also, in universe, I'll never get over how they made Geyah have basically no influence on Garrosh.
Well, consider that by telling him how great his dad was and snapping him out of his long malaise in such a manner, Thrall arguably provided Garrosh with an excuse to think that just maybe the scolding Frostwolf elder and her peers who'd spent all those years condemning Grom Hellscream and the Horde didn't really know what they were talking about all along.
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  #7828  
Old 03-02-2019, 11:29 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Well, consider that by telling him how great his dad was and snapping him out of his long malaise in such a manner, Thrall arguably provided Garrosh with an excuse to think that just maybe the scolding Frostwolf elder and her peers who'd spent all those years condemning Grom Hellscream and the Horde didn't really know what they were talking about all along.
That doesn't seem representative of his relationship with Geyah though, he seemed to genuine care about and respect her and she encouraged him.
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  #7829  
Old 03-03-2019, 01:57 AM
Vineyard Vineyard is offline

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That doesn't seem representative of his relationship with Geyah though, he seemed to genuine care about and respect her and she encouraged him.
Actually, Geyah sadly kinda predicted Garrosh's path in an ingame dialogue.

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He has lost his heart, you know. He tells me that I am his balance. That without me, the bloodlust that consumed his father and ultimately cursed our people would take him over.
https://wow.gamepedia.com/A_Visit_With_the_Greatmother

Oh and......

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Garrosh can lead the Mag'har. He is strong and wise. All of the spirits approve of him. He just needs to believe in himself. He fears so much... He fears so deeply that if he lets himself go, his rage will consume him and all that would be near him.
Anakin, is that you?
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  #7830  
Old 03-03-2019, 07:47 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Actually, Geyah sadly kinda predicted Garrosh's path in an ingame dialogue.



https://wow.gamepedia.com/A_Visit_With_the_Greatmother

Oh and......



Anakin, is that you?
That was more Garrosh's prediction than Geyah's and it's kind of what I'm talking about. What kind of story has Geyah be -wrong- that Garrosh will shape up after all that?
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  #7831  
Old 03-03-2019, 08:37 AM
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That was more Garrosh's prediction than Geyah's and it's kind of what I'm talking about. What kind of story has Geyah be -wrong- that Garrosh will shape up after all that?
Geyah could have refused to believe her ward could go so wrong. It's a common trope. Remember Terenas? "What are you doing, my son?"
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  #7832  
Old 03-03-2019, 08:53 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Geyah could have refused to believe her ward could go so wrong. It's a common trope. Remember Terenas? "What are you doing, my son?"
Arthas had a goddamn dreadlord go after him though.


Geyah being wrong is an assault on essentially the orcs entire society and belief system because she, the person who was against all the evil old horde crap, and the spirits, and Garrosh who demonstrated REMARKABLE Self Awareness... all seem to lose their goddamn minds in Cata to WoD.

It's just... destructive to the fantasy of playing as an Orc and the Horde as a whole.
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  #7833  
Old 03-03-2019, 08:59 AM
Deicide Deicide is online now

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Arthas had a goddamn dreadlord go after him though.


Geyah being wrong is an assault on essentially the orcs entire society and belief system because she, the person who was against all the evil old horde crap, and the spirits, and Garrosh who demonstrated REMARKABLE Self Awareness... all seem to lose their goddamn minds in Cata to WoD.

It's just... destructive to the fantasy of playing as an Orc and the Horde as a whole.
Actually, Garrosh and his appointed lieutenants were already doing some pretty shady stuff in WotLK.

He went from the depressed guy fearing his rage would destroy everything to the raging guy that wanted to destroy everything.
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  #7834  
Old 03-03-2019, 09:05 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Actually, Garrosh and his appointed lieutenants were already doing some pretty shady stuff in WotLK.

He went from the depressed guy fearing his rage would destroy everything to the raging guy that wanted to destroy everything.
I don't know what that 'actually' is supposed to be referring to.

My entire point is it was stupid to have Garrosh and his 'generation' of orcs be stupid-evil and it has been destructive to the fantasy of playing Horde.
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  #7835  
Old 03-03-2019, 09:18 AM
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I don't know what that 'actually' is supposed to be referring to.

My entire point is it was stupid to have Garrosh and his 'generation' of orcs be stupid-evil and it has been destructive to the fantasy of playing Horde.
It's that you said the shift happened on Cataclysm, I just pointed it began immediately after TBC.
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  #7836  
Old 03-03-2019, 03:29 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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It's that you said the shift happened on Cataclysm, I just pointed it began immediately after TBC.
Okay but it's kind of a moot point.

It was a dumb decision either way.
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  #7837  
Old 03-09-2019, 12:16 PM
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Hmm...the Vulpera helping the Zandalari?
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  #7838  
Old 03-09-2019, 09:59 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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WHY is it too far exactly?

I mean... this was literally less evil than everything the Horde's done.

I am so tired of this false equivalency.
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  #7839  
Old 03-09-2019, 11:57 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Kiro knows nothing of the factions' track record.
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  #7840  
Old 03-10-2019, 12:17 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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I just don't get this sense of the Zandalari as a group being their friends or something.

They may not have been enemies of the Vulpera, but frankly the Zandalari used Vol'dun as a dumping ground for their exiles, so the interaction between the Vulpera and the Zandalari there has consisted primarily of the former being under threat from the latter's discarded criminal refuse.

The Zandalari seemed to basically ignore anything going on in Vol'dun, letting the Faithless and exiles run roughshod over the place unopposed, so why this sudden "our poor Zandalari neighbors" attitude from Vulpera? When it comes right down to it they barely even know the Zandalari. Really through the player's aid they arguably know the Horde better than they know the Zandalari.

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  #7841  
Old 03-10-2019, 12:23 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Kiro knows nothing of the factions' track record.
Kiro knows little about much of anything outside Vol'dun I'd imagine.
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  #7842  
Old 03-10-2019, 01:38 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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I just don't get this sense of the Zandalari as a group being their friends or something.

They may not have been enemies of the Vulpera, but frankly the Zandalari used Vol'dun as a dumping ground for their exiles, so the interaction between the Vulpera and the Zandalari there has consisted primarily of the former being under threat from the latter's discarded criminal refuse.

The Zandalari seemed to basically ignore anything going on in Vol'dun, letting the Faithless and exiles run roughshod over the place unopposed, so why this sudden "our poor Zandalari neighbors" attitude from Vulpera? When it comes right down to it they barely even know the Zandalari. Really through the player's aid they arguably know the Horde better than they know the Zandalari.
I don't see that as an issue. You see lots of contradicting declarations of support in real life, as well.

If I'm not mistaken, that's pretty much a trademark of Warcraft's story as well.
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  #7843  
Old 03-10-2019, 07:52 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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I don't see that as an issue. You see lots of contradicting declarations of support in real life, as well.

If I'm not mistaken, that's pretty much a trademark of Warcraft's story as well.
Okay but

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p...yIsUnrealistic
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  #7844  
Old 03-10-2019, 09:50 AM
Trickster Trickster is offline

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That's the kind of declaration that makes me expect Kiro to be an undercover Taran Zhu.

Besides, the Zandalari have been at war with the entire world since Cataclysm and now they've allied with the Horde. What Kiro should be wondering is why the Alliance took so much time to come kill Rastakhan.

Also, since Ive come back and played a bit of BFA, Id just like to point out that Ive tried to play Horde and I really just can't stand it when the faction is now basically the unholy alliance of the Scourge and Iron Horde. Add to that the Zandalari and it seems the Horde is now just about every expansion's vilains we've faced. This is ridiculous. If you want to play a decent Horde, you've got to limit yourself to Outland and Northrend (which is what I actually do on my monk).
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  #7845  
Old 03-10-2019, 01:08 PM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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WHY is it too far exactly?

I mean... this was literally less evil than everything the Horde's done.

I am so tired of this false equivalency.
What equivalency? He wasn’t comparing the Alliance and Horde. You are. Kiro is just calling events as he sees them. And he’s right. Killing Rastakhan was an objectively bad move. It turned a legitimate military operation into an assassination, and a fairly ineffective one at that.

What was the Alliance’s objective at Dazar’Alor? Breaking the Golden Fleet and establishing naval dominance? Great! They accomplished that within the first cinematic. They could have turned around right there and called it a success. Of course we wouldn’t have gotten our raid, but the Alliance would have gotten an arguably superior result. Rastakhan, weak as he is, would now have ample grounds to withdraw support from the Horde, citing how he no longer has the naval strength to participate in this War. By killing Rastakhan, the Zandalari are now provoked, and are obviously joining the Horde whole-heartedly. I imagine the Alliance thought that if they challenged him in his Throne Room, that would be Check Mate, which does NOT involve killing a King, but rather capturing him. Rastakhan wasn’t playing Chess. This does not mean the Alliance gets a free pass on killing a king. There are consequences for that. For being the faction with knights, and supposedly the faction that is civilized, the Alliance too often fails in its chivalry and does not control itself with Rules of Engagement, and suffers for it. They lose their morals in the face of a foe that they see as immoral, justifying their behavior with the bad behavior of their enemies, and forgetting that these rules are there for a reason.
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  #7846  
Old 03-12-2019, 03:37 PM
Vineyard Vineyard is offline

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  #7847  
Old 03-12-2019, 05:01 PM
kobebyarlant kobebyarlant is offline

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This expansion has now released as many playable races that were available in vanilla.
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  #7848  
Old 03-12-2019, 11:41 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Stuff I've noticed in 8.1.5:










It seems that Drust Magic = Death Magic. I'd just ignore Afrasiabi at this point.
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  #7849  
Old 03-12-2019, 11:44 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Too little, too late

Baine cannot recover from the bad lore in Cata and Mop, he's all talk until it comes to helping the Alliance and he's not done anything notable to help the horde
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  #7850  
Old 03-13-2019, 12:35 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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I have to say, I really liked that the motivation given by Baine was about the Earth Mother dying while we incessantly fight, not about honor. It ties directly to Tauren culture, but more importantly, it's an actually tangible reason, whereas honor is more an abstract concept that's further generally not well understood by modern audiences.
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