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  #51  
Old 01-22-2014, 10:23 AM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Originally Posted by Jungleluke View Post
Exactly.

SO I WANT NO WORDS ABOUT A FEL ALLIANCE! DO I MAKE MYSELF CLEAR?

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I think you're missing the irony.

Blizzard can deny it's a story about alternate universes all it wants, but if it tells a story about alternate universes we're going to fucking call them on it.

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Nononono, just that ONLY AU Draenor got pulled to Azeroth, no AU space or AU Azeroth attached. Kairoz had that special item from the Timeless Isle, it's bullshit.
Fixed.
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  #52  
Old 01-22-2014, 10:28 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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I suppose a way around it would be to treat it as a created reality. Garrosh had some magic to copy&paste this part of the actual universe somewhere, and he has entered it to claim the army.

Everybody in it is "real" in the sense that they were made and thus do exist, but their memories and such are fabricated.
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  #53  
Old 01-22-2014, 10:38 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Originally Posted by Anansi View Post
I think you're missing the irony.

Blizzard can deny it's a story about alternate universes all it wants, but if it tells a story about alternate universes we're going to fucking call them on it.



Fixed.
Do you have diabetes Anansi? Cause you're full of salt.
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  #54  
Old 01-22-2014, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Menel'dirion View Post
That's the question on my mind as well.

If there is but one Legion, then in my mind that makes WoD all the more relevant to MU. Beings like Sargeras and Kil'jaeden may be powerful enough to transcend timelines. Personally, I hope there's only one Legion between the two timelines.
I could have swore I saw it mentioned somewhere that Kil'Jaeden is going to be absolutely pissed at us (more so than usual) because Garrosh/the players interrupted his re-do of turning the Orcish Horde on our MU Azeroth. Assuming KJ/Sargeras are powerful enough to be unique among all the timelines, I could see that be the trigger point where the Legion drops all the scheming and manipulation pretense and just start a good old invasion. Or they decide to invade Draenor while we're on it over the course of WoD.

I just want to slay Demons again.
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  #55  
Old 01-22-2014, 12:24 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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I just want to slay Demons again.
Soft, squishy little demons. C'mere, lil' fella. I won't hurt you.
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  #56  
Old 01-22-2014, 02:18 PM
Montoya Montoya is offline

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I could have swore I saw it mentioned somewhere that Kil'Jaeden is going to be absolutely pissed at us (more so than usual) because Garrosh/the players interrupted his re-do of turning the Orcish Horde on our MU Azeroth. Assuming KJ/Sargeras are powerful enough to be unique among all the timelines, I could see that be the trigger point where the Legion drops all the scheming and manipulation pretense and just start a good old invasion. Or they decide to invade Draenor while we're on it over the course of WoD.

I just want to slay Demons again.
Kosak said that Gul'dan's bosses will not be happy with his failure to corrupt the Orcs
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  #57  
Old 01-23-2014, 11:08 AM
Dagren Dagren is offline

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I think the best explanation is BaronGrackle's latest posts: the Draenor of WoD is just a copy of the past one.
As for Gul'dan's bosses, I imagine Kil'Jaedan being like "now who's calling me at this hour?" just to discover that it's that orc (or the copy of that orc) who died all those years ago trying to call him like it has been mere days for him.
Kil'Jaedan is double pissed about it: he knows Gul'dan's original copy fucked up his plans (and he never had revenge on him) and this one just fucked up in the copy universe.
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  #58  
Old 01-23-2014, 12:04 PM
Cemotucu Cemotucu is offline

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Originally Posted by Dagren View Post
I think the best explanation is BaronGrackle's latest posts: the Draenor of WoD is just a copy of the past one.
As for Gul'dan's bosses, I imagine Kil'Jaedan being like "now who's calling me at this hour?" just to discover that it's that orc (or the copy of that orc) who died all those years ago trying to call him like it has been mere days for him.
Kil'Jaedan is double pissed about it: he knows Gul'dan's original copy fucked up his plans (and he never had revenge on him) and this one just fucked up in the copy universe.
It's actually an explanation that has been around almost since launch, based on the fact that Kairoz claimed that the power of the Timeless Isle could be used to "create worlds".

This theory has Kairoz use the Vision of TIme to copy/paste Draenor into our present (in the "empty spot" left in the Great Dark Beyond after our Draenor was shattered into the Nether and turned into Outland).
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  #59  
Old 01-23-2014, 12:36 PM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
I suppose a way around it would be to treat it as a created reality. Garrosh had some magic to copy&paste this part of the actual universe somewhere, and he has entered it to claim the army.

Everybody in it is "real" in the sense that they were made and thus do exist, but their memories and such are fabricated.
Maybe Garrosh made up the more crazier/aggressive versions of existing clans/characters so that he has the best army ever? Like, he changed the Hollows so he can have rangers, and the Blackrocks into industrial guys, and tried to make the Frostwolves harsher, hoping that they'll be on his side?
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  #60  
Old 01-23-2014, 06:14 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
I suppose a way around it would be to treat it as a created reality. Garrosh had some magic to copy&paste this part of the actual universe somewhere, and he has entered it to claim the army.

Everybody in it is "real" in the sense that they were made and thus do exist, but their memories and such are fabricated.
I don't think it's a copy & paste so much as a cut and paste.

Or, essentially, teleporting a planet into twenty years later into an alternate universe.
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Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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  #61  
Old 01-23-2014, 06:38 PM
Cemotucu Cemotucu is offline

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Originally Posted by Millenia View Post
I don't think it's a copy & paste so much as a cut and paste.

Or, essentially, teleporting a planet into twenty years later into an alternate universe.
A cut & paste would modified the past of our timeline. You would erase Draenor from the timeline and erase all the things that could have cross the DPortal into Azeroth: the orcs, the ogres, and you would essentially prevent the Three Wars.
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  #62  
Old 01-23-2014, 07:06 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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Originally Posted by Cemotucu View Post
A cut & paste would modified the past of our timeline. You would erase Draenor from the timeline and erase all the things that could have cross the DPortal into Azeroth: the orcs, the ogres, and you would essentially prevent the Three Wars.
It's a different timeline, so nothing in our timeline would have changed.
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Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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  #63  
Old 01-23-2014, 07:32 PM
Cemotucu Cemotucu is offline

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Originally Posted by Millenia View Post
It's a different timeline, so nothing in our timeline would have changed.
Interesting... So who could have created this alternate timeline from which WoD's Draenor was cut?

Old Gods? Titans? Alternate timelines are "artificial" in WoW as there is only one true timeline.
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  #64  
Old 01-23-2014, 07:39 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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Originally Posted by Cemotucu View Post
Interesting... So who could have created this alternate timeline from which WoD's Draenor was cut?

Old Gods? Titans? Alternate timelines are "artificial" in WoW as there is only one true timeline.
Kairoz, probably. Went back in time a bit further than when Garrosh showed up, manipulated things so there are the differences between WoD Draenor and what's shown in Rise of the Horde/Unbroken/etc, and then sent Garrosh to the time when he showed up, and then we have the WoD we have now. Add in like a year or whatever for proper industrialization and construction of the Dark Portal, and then you have a connection between new!Draenor and Azeroth.
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Originally Posted by Mustrum View Post
Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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  #65  
Old 01-23-2014, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Cemotucu View Post
Interesting... So who could have created this alternate timeline from which WoD's Draenor was cut?

Old Gods? Titans? Alternate timelines are "artificial" in WoW as there is only one true timeline.
Step 1.) Treat all things in the universe as information, whether it's space, time, or energy.

Step 2.) Realize that if everything is information, then the universe can be treated as a computer.

Step 3.) Consider how one can copy and paste information on a computer without destroying the original information.

Step 4.) Understand that Garrosh's artifact lets him copy and paste information, even from the same timeline.

Step 5.) ???

Step 6.) profit.
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  #66  
Old 01-23-2014, 07:51 PM
Cemotucu Cemotucu is offline

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Originally Posted by Shroombie View Post
Step 1.) Treat all things in the universe as information, whether it's space, time, or energy.

Step 2.) Realize that if everything is information, then the universe can be treated as a computer.

Step 3.) Consider how one can copy and paste information on a computer without destroying the original information.

Step 4.) Understand that Garrosh's artifact lets him copy and paste information, even from the same timeline.

Step 5.) ???

Step 6.) profit.
What you just said is "copy & paste", not "cut & paste" (as Millenia said). I fully understand the "copy & paste theory".

And in relation with what Millenia just said... That would be like a "copy, change & paste", wouldn't it? As long as it only involves a single planet, I'm okey with it. I'd hate if there was an artifact that was suddenly able to create/duplicate entire multiverses from air; a single planet (or two) I can live with.
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  #67  
Old 01-23-2014, 07:53 PM
Shroombie Shroombie is offline

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Originally Posted by Cemotucu View Post
What you just said is "copy & paste", not "cut & paste" (as Millenia said). I fully understand the "copy & paste theory".

And in relation with what Millenia just said... That would be like a "copy, change & paste", wouldn't it? As long as it only involves a single planet, I'm okey with it. I'd hate if there was an artifact that was suddenly able to create/duplicate entire multiverses from air; a single planet (or two) I can live with.
Ahh, alright. Yeah, I wouldn't like an artifact like that either. Seems like something even the Titans shouldn't be able to do.
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  #68  
Old 01-23-2014, 08:09 PM
Cemotucu Cemotucu is offline

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Ahh, alright. Yeah, I wouldn't like an artifact like that either. Seems like something even the Titans shouldn't be able to do.
Exactly! Creating multiverses is something that... I don't think any known god in Warcraft could create (not even the OG). By "multiverses/alternate timelines", I mean an Alternate Great Dark Beyond (with all the bazillion worlds), TNether, etc.
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  #69  
Old 01-23-2014, 10:58 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Originally Posted by Cemotucu View Post
Interesting... So who could have created this alternate timeline from which WoD's Draenor was cut?
It's not necessarily a matter of "who could"; as indicated with the "King/Warchief Blackmoore" Azeroth in TotA, the very act of changing something in the past creates a tangential timeline which, under ordinary circumstances, is inherently unstable and eventually terminates itself independently from the main one.

So, the circumstance applied with Alternate Draenor is that by some means (presumably connected to the Timeless Isle's properties) the planet is kept stable and tied to the main timeline via connecting it to the primary Azeroth's Dark Portal.

The past of the main timeline remains inviolate, but technically speaking unless the players and any NPC allies along for the ride never return from Draenor or they pull a universe-wide memory erasure at the conclusion of WoD, AU Draenor would have to affect the main timeline from the present-day point of contact onward by virtue of MU Azeroth's inhabitants reacting to its presence, especially in the form of the players traveling there along with any allies who go with them.
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  #70  
Old 01-24-2014, 06:07 AM
Cemotucu Cemotucu is offline

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It's not necessarily a matter of "who could"; as indicated with the "King/Warchief Blackmoore" Azeroth in TotA, the very act of changing something in the past creates a tangential timeline which, under ordinary circumstances, is inherently unstable and eventually terminates itself independently from the main one.
Changing something in the past doesn't create a tangential timeline. TBC and WotA Trilogy showed us that. If you change the past, you rewrite the present. If it wasn't like that, then what would have been the point of fighting the Infinites and sending Rhonin and co to the past if the timeline wasn't in danger?

King Blackmoore's Azeroth was implied to have been created by the Old Gods. It was inherenly unstable, however.
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  #71  
Old 01-24-2014, 06:52 AM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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Originally Posted by Cemotucu View Post
Changing something in the past doesn't create a tangential timeline. TBC and WotA Trilogy showed us that. If you change the past, you rewrite the present. If it wasn't like that, then what would have been the point of fighting the Infinites [...]?
Infinites probably have an ability to make their changes stick.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustrum View Post
Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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  #72  
Old 01-24-2014, 07:37 AM
Cemotucu Cemotucu is offline

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Originally Posted by Millenia View Post
Infinites probably have an ability to make their changes stick.
That's refuted by the fact that Nozdormu said at the end of WoE instance that he would prevent the stoling of the Dragon Soul from affecting the timeline. The same with all the changes made by Rhonin and Co to the Timeline.
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  #73  
Old 01-24-2014, 07:39 AM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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That's refuted by the fact that Nozdormu said at the end of WoE instance that he would prevent the stoling of the Dragon Soul from affecting the timeline. The same with all the changes made by Rhonin and Co to the Timeline.
How is that refuted? Nozdormu just put up a time lock to prevent them from going back in time.
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The Alliance's three rules on faction conflict:
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3) You can't leave the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustrum View Post
Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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  #74  
Old 01-24-2014, 07:41 AM
Cemotucu Cemotucu is offline

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How is that refuted? Nozdormu just put up a time lock to prevent them from going back in time.
Is refuted because a change made my mortals had to be locked in order to not drastically change the timeline.
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  #75  
Old 01-24-2014, 09:11 AM
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I fully expect for us to never, ever, hear about the AU again after WoD. Maybe Yurel and some others (*Cough* Entire surviving Iron Horde) will come back with us to Azeroth, but any reference to the AU will never come up again.

The whole thing has read so much like Blizzard having no clue themselves how it works they'll desperately try and pretend it doesn't exist afterwards.
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