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  #7151  
Old 10-22-2018, 11:25 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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Originally Posted by Noitora View Post
They weren't this bad in Vanilla. What you believe also conflicts with several Forsaken fans who believe they're heroes, or to Horde players who support Forsaken actions against the Alliance because "fuck them".
They were a vague notion of a faction in vanilla with three zones (two of them half-assed and incomplete as hell) to their name. The few quests they did have involved them mostly collecting ingredients for their life-ending blight.

The Horde in general, and the Forsaken in particular were not properly established until Cataclysm to my mind.

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That is terrible for players who enjoyed WC3, Vanilla, and Vol'Jin's short attempt at change. Saurfang is seemingly starting a rebellion, 8.1 has Baine frustrated with Sylvanas, for whatever reason, Lor'themor isn't involved, and then there's Vol'Jin saying he'll make sure Sylvanas is a just ruler. Something to that effect. I don't think Sylvanas will die. She will probably get a redemption somehow, but the Horde is splintering.
I don't see how it's terrible for them, it's a new story, a new situation. The point of a story or a video game shouldn't always be to make the player feel good about themselves and what's going on. How can there ever be conflict if the player just always automatically wins and does the right thing?

So far BfA has shown it's willing to allow for things like Pyrrhic victories and letting the player fail and not necessarily get what they expect or want.

So yeah, the 'noble horde' still would exist in this scenario, it would just be in an impossible situation and wouldn't be able to do anything about Sylvanas without putting themselves at risk of righteous judgement from the Alliance.

I REALLY hope all this Saurfang stuff is a tease and not just ANOTHER Siege of Orgrimmar situation. That'd be so unbelievably pathetic.

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It is rather interesting reading that the Horde players were told their faction is heroic during Classic, yet then you read John Staats and his diary on the development of World of Warcraft explaining how most of the Classic team considered the Horde "the evil faction", and how the undead were considered "the most evil of them all", or you open the old promotional materials, manual, introductory scenes and read about the Undercity as "a sprawling bastion of evil", the Forsaken as "disciples of doom", the Alliance armies fighting the "merciless Horde" in faraway lands, and so on.

It is almost as if this dualism between "noble savage" and "merciless evil" has been present in the Horde since the very conception of World of Warcraft, and people just use the "good old days" fallacy to feel more justified in their toxic behavior towards the modern development team.
Primarily the Horde was kind of an afterthought in Classic WoW. I don't think the game or manual present them particularly as "pure evil" or anything (particularly the Orcs -- who were pretty cuddly back in those days, Garrosh an obvious attempt to give the Orcs back some of their edge). But I don't really think it's possible to ascertain any sort of agenda or message with them.

As to the manual, I don't recall Tyrande EVER being referred to as a Princess, and if anything that sounds like a typing error to me from "Priestess". I also can't think of any other major contradictions like that in the manuals. Nor do I think that's all that relevant anyway.
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  #7152  
Old 10-23-2018, 01:41 AM
Fenixhart Fenixhart is offline

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This isn't a new situation

This isn't a new story.

This isn't even a new fucking plot arc.

It's terrible because it's terribly written, using a format that ensures disappointment, and with as much care and tact as rocket blasting a square peg into a round hole.

ANd we've been here already. That's why we're telling blizzard to hurry the fuck up and get to the credits so we can get back to ignoring each other while the Old Gods show up.

If the Horde didn't exist in your mind till Cataclysm. then you just didn't play Warcraft 3, where their arc toward Reformation was well underlined. Cataclysm threw Turbulence in that plot, Mists capsized it, and now BfA is just sinking it beneath the waves.

THe Horde is a schizophrenic gaggle of half wanting to be the Hero and half wanting to be "KILL, MAIM, CONQUER" and Blizzard is trying to have both.

TO say they've been catering to one or the other is being willfully obtuse. Every time they've had the "amp up the edge" moments they make certain to throw in some "hey, we're still about honor, don't worry guys uwu" side trip to not entirely fuck up their faction population like they almost did with Teldrasill before they came in with the bucket with Old Soldier.

The fact that Player anger over a story point was making news should tell you how some people feel about their faction. They need to stop trying to serve both, and it should be clear there's a fucking line on how often you can sell wholeslale slaughter and dress it up as justified when even cursory glances can upturn any bullshit Sylvanas tries to sell.

Oh, but now Alliance gets to join the Fun with Purge Squads, that's the only new thing in this expansion. Their answer to fucking the Horde so bad it's practically unsalvagable is to try and fuck up the Alliance too.
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  #7153  
Old 10-23-2018, 01:44 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Aldrius View Post
I don't think the game or manual present them particularly as "pure evil" or anything (particularly the Orcs -- who were pretty cuddly back in those days, Garrosh an obvious attempt to give the Orcs back some of their edge). But I don't really think it's possible to ascertain any sort of agenda or message with them.
Agreed. What I meant simply was that the Horde was clearly not "pure heroic" with no shady or even downright morally despicable elements either, it was a mix of both.

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As to the manual, I don't recall Tyrande EVER being referred to as a Princess, and if anything that sounds like a typing error to me from "Priestess". I also can't think of any other major contradictions like that in the manuals. Nor do I think that's all that relevant anyway.
Occupation: Night Elf Priestess of the Moon - Leader of the Sentinel.
Affiliation: The Sentinels
Age: 13,836

Tyrande is an ancient night elf princess and high priestess of the moon goddess, Elune. In ages past, she aided Furion and Illidan Stormrage in their battle to save Kalimdor from the Burning Legion. As well as being Elune's high priestess, she is the leader of the Sentinels a group of warrior women who have sworn to protect Kalimdor's shores while their male counterparts, the druids, sleep in the trance-like Emerald Dream. Tyrande is a fiery warrior and holds certain resentment for shouldering the defense of her land while the druids sleep. Her undying love for Furion Stormrage has given her strength and courage enough to face the centuries alone and uphold her sacred charge to defend Kalimdor from any threat.


This is from her bio in the manual. Both princess and priestess is used in the same sentence, so I doubt it can be a typo in any realistic way. However, as I explained previously, this bio comes from before the Knaak trilogy which retconned Tyrande's Warcraft III age and thus her backstory, and as such, there is no reason to suspect inconsistency between the manual and its game.
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  #7154  
Old 10-23-2018, 03:54 AM
Quirnheim Quirnheim is offline

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ancient priestess of elune on paper

damsel in distress for blizzard employee's self insert in actuality
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Fuck your dumb gamergate shit I'd rather be pegged by Sylvanas than read it.
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Just remember, the Alliance is only ever allowed to passively defend itself against the Horde, and Taurajo was Azeroth's equivalent of the Holocaust.
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  #7155  
Old 10-23-2018, 11:54 AM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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Ah, Quirnhelm, you never fail to make this a worse place c:
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  #7156  
Old 10-23-2018, 01:54 PM
Quirnheim Quirnheim is offline

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Originally Posted by Ethenil View Post
Ah, Quirnhelm, you never fail to make this a worse place c:
apparently having a contrary opinion = "make this a worse place"

lol
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Fuck your dumb gamergate shit I'd rather be pegged by Sylvanas than read it.
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Just remember, the Alliance is only ever allowed to passively defend itself against the Horde, and Taurajo was Azeroth's equivalent of the Holocaust.
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  #7157  
Old 10-24-2018, 05:29 AM
Gurzog Gurzog is offline

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yes it is i, Krainzsucks.

Anyway I am happy the horde uses iron horde tanks too for sieges, Now All that is needed is for gronns, and to build an iron docks somewhere. ANd to start using Iron Horde Architechture for building new bases, (also love that alliance are using the Lightforged draenei and their tech alot), Would absolutely love some interaction between the two, Telaamon wanting to purge azeroth of the horde is a good thing too.

Also of note: the pic above is what happens when you side with sylvanas.
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  #7158  
Old 10-24-2018, 06:48 AM
Quirnheim Quirnheim is offline

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So Horde bitches and moans about betraying their sexy waifu warchief and they get an entirely new questline so they don't have to betray said sexy waifu because they bitched and moaned......meanwhile the Alliance playerbase has complained nonstop about the lackluster treatment given to the night elves and they get nothing.

But you braindead morons keep insisting there's no Horde bias.
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Fuck your dumb gamergate shit I'd rather be pegged by Sylvanas than read it.
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Just remember, the Alliance is only ever allowed to passively defend itself against the Horde, and Taurajo was Azeroth's equivalent of the Holocaust.
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  #7159  
Old 10-24-2018, 08:13 AM
Mungo Mungo is offline

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Originally Posted by Quirnheim View Post
So Horde bitches and moans about betraying their sexy waifu warchief and they get an entirely new questline so they don't have to betray said sexy waifu because they bitched and moaned......meanwhile the Alliance playerbase has complained nonstop about the lackluster treatment given to the night elves and they get nothing.

But you braindead morons keep insisting there's no Horde bias.
#NotMyWaifu
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  #7160  
Old 10-24-2018, 10:09 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Originally Posted by Quirnheim View Post
apparently having a contrary opinion = "make this a worse place"

lol
I think it has far less to do with your opinions than with your tone.

By the way, consider this your first warning. In case you are unsure of the reason, you need only look at post #7518.

Last edited by Nazja; 10-24-2018 at 10:14 AM..
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  #7161  
Old 10-24-2018, 12:14 PM
Reinhardt Reinhardt is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quirnheim View Post
So Horde bitches and moans about betraying their sexy waifu warchief and they get an entirely new questline so they don't have to betray said sexy waifu because they bitched and moaned......meanwhile the Alliance playerbase has complained nonstop about the lackluster treatment given to the night elves and they get nothing.

But you braindead morons keep insisting there's no Horde bias.
Maybe you should get a break from the game before you give yourself a stroke.
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  #7162  
Old 10-24-2018, 01:48 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Apparently, there's a quest where the Horde help break Belmont out of being perma-frozen by Tyrande, which is bad because it just makes Tyrande look even more incompetent.

Meanwhile Void Elves use a void dinosaur to inflict massive damage on Horde forces, which is good since it shows the Alliance at least has one elf race that Blizzard isn't doing a botched job of portraying competently.

I think any Night Elf fan who is frustrated should just give up and roll Void Elf because they're not changing Darkshore.
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  #7163  
Old 10-24-2018, 08:53 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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In other news, they've just changed Darkshore!
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  #7164  
Old 10-25-2018, 01:51 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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In other news, they've just changed Darkshore!
And I stand corrected, really caught me by surprise since voice acting normally seals it but it seems they found a solid workaround for that.
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  #7165  
Old 10-25-2018, 02:36 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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And I stand corrected, really caught me by surprise since voice acting normally seals it but it seems they found a solid workaround for that.
Frankly, I do not think it was even a workaround, when I played throughout the first iteration, it was pretty clear that the NPCs movements and a lot of action is highly unfinished, so it was bound there would be updates. Furthermore, the whole Tyrande conversation at the camp made little sense with the rest of the garrison left alive, she said "leave him to rot, he does not deserve a clean death", not "leave them to rot". Plus the entire conversation about mercy before entering the camp.

Simply put, the voice lines painted a highly different picture from what was actually happening on the screen, and only now with these changes they start coming together, so I'd say in one way or another, it has always been the plan. Now, you can blame Blizzard for putting up 8. on PTR way to early, but that has been the norm for a while now, the days when PTR was basically the last batch of testing are long gone, so...
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  #7166  
Old 10-25-2018, 04:06 AM
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The Alliance campaign continues (spoilers).

https://www.wowhead.com/news=288121/...story-spoilers

I like that they used Telaamon. At last, a lightforged draenei gets a role. He had caught my eye in Argus, and I hope he survives, but things look grim.

Also, a squad of void elves and dark iron dwarves:

https://wow.zamimg.com/uploads/scree...mal/801048.jpg
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  #7167  
Old 10-25-2018, 05:39 AM
Finarfin Finarfin is offline

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The Alliance campaign continues (spoilers).

https://www.wowhead.com/news=288121/...story-spoilers
Calia got an honorable mention by Jaina as well it seems:

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Anduin Wrynn says: It is good to have you back with us, Auntie. I missed you.
Lady Jaina Proudmoore says: So much transpired while I was away. Anduin... I've heard rumors about an old friend of mine--Calia Menethil. What happened in Arathi?
Anduin Wrynn says: There is much to explain. Some I still don't fully understand... but I'll tell you what I know.
Lady Jaina Proudmoore says: Thank you. Let's find somewhere quiet to talk.
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Old 10-25-2018, 06:50 AM
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  #7169  
Old 10-25-2018, 07:07 AM
Quirnheim Quirnheim is offline

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i love how people give Baine shit for being weak even though he's the only sensible one there; the horde started an unnecessary war that's lead to them being "weeks away from defeat" and daring to defend itself the Alliance retaliated against an already Horde ally(the zandalari attack Kul Tiras before the raid on Daza-whatever, canonically).

so people apparently hate Baine for being "weak" by suggesting that they try to make peace instead of wasting more lives. /shrug
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Fuck your dumb gamergate shit I'd rather be pegged by Sylvanas than read it.
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Just remember, the Alliance is only ever allowed to passively defend itself against the Horde, and Taurajo was Azeroth's equivalent of the Holocaust.
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  #7170  
Old 10-25-2018, 07:38 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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King's death

King is death?
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  #7171  
Old 10-25-2018, 10:28 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Originally Posted by Quirnheim View Post
i love how people give Baine shit for being weak even though he's the only sensible one there; the horde started an unnecessary war that's lead to them being "weeks away from defeat" and daring to defend itself the Alliance retaliated against an already Horde ally(the zandalari attack Kul Tiras before the raid on Daza-whatever, canonically).

so people apparently hate Baine for being "weak" by suggesting that they try to make peace instead of wasting more lives. /shrug
I could understand people not liking him for not doing enough, but considering that the other Horde leaders do even less to oppose Sylvanas, even that is somewhat outlandish.

That people dislike him for wishing to sue for peace is sillier.

But the silliest yet are those who claim that he is a traitor to the Horde for opposing Sylvanas. In Thrall's Horde, loyalty to the Horde meant being loyal to the faction and its principles, doing what is best for its people. It did not mean being loyal to those who hold the position of Warchief at the cost of everything else.
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  #7172  
Old 10-25-2018, 11:16 AM
Quirnheim Quirnheim is offline

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I understand baine not doing enough but that's just silly, the whole "peace is for weak". The Horde started this war(which was not necessary) and now they are facing repercussions of their actions - and instead Sylvanas drones on and on about making the "little lion" kneel before her.

And as to your point Nazja, yeah. Even Mr "I'll kill you myself before the Horde goes down the dark path again" Saurfang was perfectly happy with murdering his way through Ashenvale and Darkshore - apparently aggressive and unprovoked war is OK, but he draws the line at burning people alive?
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Fuck your dumb gamergate shit I'd rather be pegged by Sylvanas than read it.
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Just remember, the Alliance is only ever allowed to passively defend itself against the Horde, and Taurajo was Azeroth's equivalent of the Holocaust.
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  #7173  
Old 10-25-2018, 11:25 AM
Reinhardt Reinhardt is offline

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Originally Posted by Quirnheim View Post
i love how people give Baine shit for being weak even though he's the only sensible one there; the horde started an unnecessary war that's lead to them being "weeks away from defeat" and daring to defend itself the Alliance retaliated against an already Horde ally(the zandalari attack Kul Tiras before the raid on Daza-whatever, canonically).

so people apparently hate Baine for being "weak" by suggesting that they try to make peace instead of wasting more lives. /shrug
I think people hate Baine for not being Cairne.
The rest is post hate rationalization.
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  #7174  
Old 10-25-2018, 11:42 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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And as to your point Nazja, yeah. Even Mr "I'll kill you myself before the Horde goes down the dark path again" Saurfang was perfectly happy with murdering his way through Ashenvale and Darkshore - apparently aggressive and unprovoked war is OK, but he draws the line at burning people alive?
I am probably beating my head against the wall here, but welcome to pre-modern/early modern and martial cultures. War was an accepted tool of diplomacy, provided there was a rationale behind it (and Sylvanas did have a rationale before Teldrassil), yet there were still lines to be crossed.
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  #7175  
Old 10-25-2018, 12:14 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Saurfang has legitimate reasons for supporting the War of Thorns. He does so in order to prevent and even worse conflict.

And Sylvanas also has legitimate reasons for even starting the War of Thorns, given that she felt threatened by the Alliance and believed that Anduin and Calia were plotting against her.

Obviously we know that they had no reason to fear the Alliance, but that is not something they could have known.

What is not legitimate is the lengths Sylvanas will go to.
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