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  #851  
Old 06-16-2012, 08:38 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Explanations for the flaws are better than just having them there for no reason. The latter just makes the character seem more like a walking plot device... or like a puppet with ropes instead of strings. Just ruins the illusion/suspension of disbelief.
But it shouldn't be done by White-Washing him.

Being of a high rank, Garithos was probably from an influential family. It would be a much better explanation to say that "non-humans are inferior" was drilled into his head by his family.

It's of course just an example, but giving an explanation is fine. It's when the explanation makes him sympathetic and a good guy that things get out of hand.
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  #852  
Old 06-16-2012, 08:43 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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I fully expect it to get out of hand, so I don't mind if he's white-washed.

I mean, just look at the "night elves first meet the orcs" retcon, and the "Nathanos Blightcaller's time after dying" retcon.
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Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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  #853  
Old 06-16-2012, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Millenia View Post
I fully expect it to get out of hand, so I don't mind if he's white-washed.

I mean, just look at the "night elves first meet the orcs" retcon, and the "Nathanos Blightcaller's time after dying" retcon.
So now he is a Titan made robot spy sent to get the planet ready for re-origination.
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  #854  
Old 06-16-2012, 09:00 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Originally Posted by Millenia View Post
I fully expect it to get out of hand, so I don't mind if he's white-washed.

I mean, just look at the "night elves first meet the orcs" retcon, and the "Nathanos Blightcaller's time after dying" retcon.
Here's the thing. The Night Elves first meet with the Orcs wasn't a retcon. It was an expansion on the lore. Going back and looking at the videos, we see the Night Elves watching the Orcs before attacking. They attack with a yell of "Your right sister, these orcs don't value life" (or something similar).

Now, I think it's stupid and unneeded, yes. But it didn't change much. Night Elves in WC3 still attacked the Orcs first because they felt they were a threat.
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  #855  
Old 06-16-2012, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Millenia View Post
I fully expect it to get out of hand, so I don't mind if he's white-washed.

I mean, just look at the "night elves first meet the orcs" retcon, and the "Nathanos Blightcaller's time after dying" retcon.
The difference is that I wasn't in charge of those retcons. Have a little faith in me.
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  #856  
Old 06-16-2012, 09:04 PM
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I still see how giving a character with no background a background is a retcon...
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  #857  
Old 06-16-2012, 09:05 PM
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The difference is that I wasn't in charge of those retcons. Have a little faith in me.
So we can expect a zombie Garithos with cybernetic goblin mustache complete with bio mechanic chain guns and laser dick?
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  #858  
Old 06-16-2012, 09:18 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
The difference is that I wasn't in charge of those retcons. Have a little faith in me.
I can try, but I'm naturally prone to cynicism at this point.

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I still see how giving a character with no background a background is a retcon...
White-washing and expanding on a character's (non-existent) past are different things. The former is arguably at retcon considering it changes the writer's intended perception of the character (as an antagonist to Kael'thas, and as a patsy-who-might-kill-the-Forsaken for Sylvanas).
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3) You can't leave the game.

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Originally Posted by Mustrum View Post
Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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  #859  
Old 06-16-2012, 09:30 PM
HalfElfDragon HalfElfDragon is offline

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Originally Posted by Ferlion View Post
So we can expect a zombie Garithos with cybernetic goblin mustache complete with bio mechanic chain guns and laser dick?
I'm pretty sure that's the basis of WoWX5.
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  #860  
Old 06-16-2012, 09:48 PM
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So we can expect a zombie Garithos with cybernetic goblin mustache complete with bio mechanic chain guns and laser dick?
Who leaked the plot of Titan to you?
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  #861  
Old 06-16-2012, 10:06 PM
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Reminds me of Brain of G...
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It'd be nice if they actually finally gave us things they cut or under utilized 10 years ago.
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Ten.

Years.
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  #862  
Old 06-17-2012, 01:58 AM
Jungleluke Jungleluke is offline

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So Omacron is really busy with Garithos? That's cool
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  #863  
Old 06-17-2012, 03:17 AM
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So Omacron is really busy with Garithos? That's cool
All I've said was that I was mucking around in the series continuity..
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  #864  
Old 06-17-2012, 04:05 AM
Jungleluke Jungleluke is offline

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All I've said was that I was mucking around in the series continuity..
Oh... Ok...
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  #865  
Old 06-17-2012, 04:27 AM
Zaelsino Zaelsino is offline

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Originally Posted by Millenia View Post
I mean, just look at the "night elves first meet the orcs" retcon, and the "Nathanos Blightcaller's time after dying" retcon.
That wasn't really a retcon. At all. It was the faulty inference of two elves (who weren't even banished by the time Nathanos had been killed by the Scourge, raised, and subsequently freed, since they only got kicked out when Rommath came back shortly before TBC) against Nathanos's own retelling of his unlife story in the Plaguelands.

It's more unreliable narration then anything else.
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  #866  
Old 06-17-2012, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Zaelsino View Post
That wasn't really a retcon. At all. It was the faulty inference of two elves (who weren't even banished by the time Nathanos had been killed by the Scourge, raised, and subsequently freed, since they only got kicked out when Rommath came back shortly before TBC) against Nathanos's own retelling of his unlife story in the Plaguelands.

It's more unreliable narration then anything else.
Ah eye of the beholder, the greatest plot trope possible.

To extend your statement, the novelizations and most of War 3 can be considered reliable by virtue of having a single consistent narrative. Once you hit WoW however, you're talking two sides of the same coin, which means no single mission in WoW through to WotLK can be considered truly canon until we can confirm which storyline CDev favors. After that Blizz smartened up and created multiple parts to the same story (e.g. faction A first, faction B second), but before then it was simply "Someone saved the day."
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  #867  
Old 06-17-2012, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Zaelsino View Post
That wasn't really a retcon. At all. It was the faulty inference of two elves (who weren't even banished by the time Nathanos had been killed by the Scourge, raised, and subsequently freed, since they only got kicked out when Rommath came back shortly before TBC) against Nathanos's own retelling of his unlife story in the Plaguelands.

It's more unreliable narration then anything else.
The problem is, why would the new version have this "unreliable narration" when it had been right in the first version? The fact that they took the trouble to change it makes me think it could mean something.
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  #868  
Old 06-17-2012, 07:36 AM
Zaelsino Zaelsino is offline

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To extend your statement, the novelizations and most of War 3 can be considered reliable by virtue of having a single consistent narrative.
Yeah, precisely. Having the statement "Nathanos never became Scourge" written in a manual would've been a straight up retcon. Two characters with limited knowledge in-verse arriving at that conclusion doesn't really have the same weight. Players questing on Nath's behalf had the chance to discover the guy's backstory... two random elves (living in aid-devoid seclusion, nonetheless) wouldn't have that frame of reference.

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The problem is, why would the new version have this "unreliable narration" when it had been right in the first version? The fact that they took the trouble to change it makes me think it could mean something.
Why does it need to mean anything? In the context of the story, it makes perfect sense for them to come to that conclusion. They've had one interaction with Nathanos since his undeath: he sent goons to the ransack their lodge "in the name of the champion of the Banshee Queen." Said goons said nothing about his time as a Scourge thrall.

It's not like they would've had any other interactions with him. I doubt Renthar Hawkspear was the Horde player who "got to know" Nathanos's backstory via questing for him; in fact, they just wouldn't know, period. It makes sense for them to make a judgement about this guy, but it's not Blizzard retconning his story. It's two elves making an inference because... well, they have no way of knowing any better. We only know better because Nathanos himself told us.

It's just adding a little more depth to the world, since not everyone is omnipotent. Not everyone got inside Nathanos's head, and without that insider knowledge one can only make guesses. I think it makes perfect sense in the narrative.

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  #869  
Old 06-17-2012, 07:43 AM
Bryn Bryn is offline

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Originally Posted by Zaelsino View Post
It's just adding a little more depth to the world, since not everyone is omnipotent. Not everyone got inside Nathanos's head, and without that insider knowledge one can only make guesses. I think it makes perfect sense in the narrative.
Hm, I hope so. I much prefer the "freed from the Scourge" version of his backstory.
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  #870  
Old 06-17-2012, 11:57 AM
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Hm, I hope so. I much prefer the "freed from the Scourge" version of his backstory.
I prefer the portion of his backstory where I got to farm him in Vanilla.

Unfortunately that went the way of his time as Scourge.
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  #871  
Old 06-17-2012, 12:11 PM
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I guess they weren't so clear about did he become Scourge or not.
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  #872  
Old 06-17-2012, 12:27 PM
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I love how Omacron simply asks for a Lordaeronian town name and everyone assumes Garithos because he was the topic of discussion a little while ago.
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  #873  
Old 06-17-2012, 12:52 PM
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I prefer the portion of his backstory where I got to farm him in Vanilla.

Unfortunately that went the way of his time as Scourge.
Oh the never of those Forsaken not getting killed by you!
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It'd be nice if they actually finally gave us things they cut or under utilized 10 years ago.
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Ten.

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  #874  
Old 06-17-2012, 01:00 PM
Sonneillon Sonneillon is offline

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I love how Omacron simply asks for a Lordaeronian town name and everyone assumes Garithos because he was the topic of discussion a little while ago.
Maybe we are on the wrong topic! Quick everyone start speculating about Calia.
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  #875  
Old 06-17-2012, 01:05 PM
neoshadow neoshadow is offline

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Maybe we are on the wrong topic! Quick everyone start speculating about Calia.
She was killed in the theramoore explosion and we decided her story was concluded in a meaningful way
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