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Old 08-13-2014, 03:57 PM
miffy23 miffy23 is offline

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Default What is The Zeitgeist Movement?

As I brought it up in a few threads and tried (poorly) to vocalize what TZM stands for and what it represents, I felt it deserved a mention of it's own.

http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/uplo...ned_6_by_9.pdf

This is the manifesto, the guide, if you will, to what TZM is, what it strives for, and also what it is NOT.

In short, it is a sustainability advocacy group, trying to spread awareness for root causes to many problems we face in society, and attempting to facilitate broader social change through the spreading of knowledge.

It is a long, well-written document consisting of multiple essays. I
If you are interested, I invite you to take an hour or two and browse through it to get an idea. Even, or especially, if you feel sceptical based on my very truncated and simplistic attempts on this board.

I would also welcome opposing opinions, within reason - if you feel a specific point or facet of TZM's philosophy is flawed, I'd love to discuss why.

Oh, and before it comes up - this is non-profit, non-power, purely altruistic and "open source" so-to-speak. The only aim is to spread knowledge and create connections.

I feel everyone remotely interested or intrigued should give it a chance.
If reading isn't your thing, check out the Zeitgeist movies - however, the first one especially is to be considered more of an artistic expression than a documentation or even motivational video.

If you're interested in a more condensed form of the basic gist of TZM's analysis of our world and what we think needs to change, check out Peter Joseph's "Culture in Decline" series of 20 min videos on youtube.
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Old 08-30-2014, 03:53 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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You know, miffy is quite annoying and arrogant (sorry, but it's true) but this stuff is pretty good and deserves a chance. Hopefully between miffy and me there is at least a few people who will take the recommendation and check things out.

Originally I didn't check it out because researching a lot of material on a recommendation of a guy you don't like is not something most would do. But then a friend recommended the afore mentioned youtube series and I have to say I am quite in agreement with what I heard.

In short the series deals with how the current system is inherently flawed, and it presents its case very logically and with lots of facts. I like that they describe a self perpetuating system, where there is no real evil bogeyman at fault for everything, it is the flawed system itself that needs to be changed most of all. Agree with it or not in the end I still think it is a well presented and worthwhile documentary, at the very least you will better understand people you don't agree with

Anyhow, here is the first video in the six part series. This video will give you a pretty good idea about the whole thing and you can decide weather to continue or not (though if you ask me vids 1 and 2 are the essential ones).



Hope this spawns some interesting debates

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Old 08-30-2014, 04:17 PM
miffy23 miffy23 is offline

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Cheers.

I don't really care what people think of me personally, i'm not here to make friends. I know that I'm pretty direct and uncompromising when I know I'm right, but there you go.

I'm here to spread awareness for something I think merits consideration, at least.

Glad to see it doesn't fall on only deaf ears.
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Old 08-30-2014, 06:07 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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I've seen it a long time ago and some of it is interesting. I don't remember absolutely everything but I did like some of the ideas centered around transportation, travel, and road safety.
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Old 08-31-2014, 12:55 PM
Cantus Cantus is offline

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I could go through all my personal reasons (factual and otherwise) for why Zeitgeist pisses me off...but I'll let a more reasoned and well written approach work for me...

http://conspiracies.skepticproject.com/articles/zeitgeist/

There are definitely fucked up things in this world, a percentage of which require coordinated malfeasance, but Zeitgeist is utter and complete conspiracy BS.
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Old 08-31-2014, 01:51 PM
Cemotucu Cemotucu is offline

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I watched the film about the "Greatest Story Ever Told" (before Cantus posted the link he pointed to), and I have to say that I can hardly trust a filmmaker that made up so much stuff on that particular matter.
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Old 08-31-2014, 02:05 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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@Cantus, there are issues with the first move, Early Installment Weirdness if you will. The author himself likes to portray both the movies and the entire movement as a train of thought, which got increasingly good over time and got a life of its own.
If you are judging it based on the 1st movie (as the link you shared seems to imply) then I would humbly suggest watching the vid I showed, and the others if that one catches your fancy.


Anyhow, there is this documentary I've shared here before which is not related to TZM (as best as I can tell) but comes to the same conclusion:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOMWzjrRiBg

I suggest people watch it if they haven't already.


EDIT: I have not yet watched The Zeitgeist movies, only the Culture in Decline series, and I liked that a lot. So just a small disclaimer there.

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Old 08-31-2014, 02:22 PM
Cemotucu Cemotucu is offline

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Originally Posted by C9H20 View Post
@Cantus, there are issues with the first move, Early Installment Weirdness if you will. The author himself likes to portray both the movies and the entire movement as a train of thought, which got increasingly good over time and got a life of its own.
If you are judging it based on the 1st movie (as the link you shared seems to imply) then I would humbly suggest watching the vid I showed, and the others if that one catches your fancy.


Anyhow, there is this documentary I've shared here before which is not related to TZM (as best as I can tell) but comes to the same conclusion:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOMWzjrRiBg

I suggest people watch it if they haven't already.


EDIT: I have not yet watched The Zeitgeist movies, only the Culture in Decline series, and I liked that a lot. So just a small disclaimer there.
Okey, I'll check that. Thanks for sharing, C9.
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Old 08-31-2014, 02:54 PM
miffy23 miffy23 is offline

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Originally Posted by Cantus View Post
I could go through all my personal reasons (factual and otherwise) for why Zeitgeist pisses me off...but I'll let a more reasoned and well written approach work for me...

http://conspiracies.skepticproject.com/articles/zeitgeist/

There are definitely fucked up things in this world, a percentage of which require coordinated malfeasance, but Zeitgeist is utter and complete conspiracy BS.
Ouch Cantus..you seriously linked that crackpot? Did you honestly read the stuff he critisizes? Just read it, seriously it's really quite amusing. He repeatedly insists that he's providing refutations and "debunkings", and in the end does nothing but claim that he is right because he says so, without backing it up with a single shred of actual evidence or argument, and TZM is a "cult" and Peter Joseph it's "leader".

That being said, there are severe inaccuracies and lazy statements in the first movie. It is important to remember that the first movie was not intended to become what it turned into. It wasn't intended to spark a movement, or be a "conspiracy theory documentary". It was simply an artistic project of Joseph's, that started out as performance art in New York City. The focus was on his own percussion and visual effects accompanying his view of the world.

The second movie moves into much more grounded and focused territory, the third continues this. Finally the "Culture in Decline" videos as well as the recent lecture video series by other participants in the movement really only deal with hard facts and what we propose.

I would highly suggest taking a look at the current manual or the newer video series, and disregard especially the first movie.

The first movie, especially the conspiracy theory part, basically has nothing to do with what TZM is trying to accomplish. In fact, whether or not 9/11 was a false flag or outside operation makes absolutely no difference to the end result in history and who benefited from it.

In any case, I would seriously suggest you read some of the stuff this guy actually claims to "refute". While his claims of inaccurate or misquotes are certainly true, especially on the first movie, his attempts to refute the explanation of the economic system are hilarious, to say the least. He blatantly reveals his complete misunderstanding of the fractional reserve banking system in almost every paragraph.

I agree with the sceptic's approach in general, and his claims on a lot of inaccuracies in the first movie specifically on conspiracy theories are valid.

However, he actually confirms himself multiple times to agree with wide stretches of especially the second movie and onward, and actually fails to debunk what he doesn't believe in that part. While he provides a plethora of all kinds of websites as sources for his attempts at rebuttal, these sources 9 out of 10 times do not lead to any factual debunking in his actual text aside from his own assertions.

TL;DR:
In short, i'd advise anyone who is interested in the movement to pretty much avoid the movies, at least the first one. It wasn't intended as the starting point of a movement, and the content of the first movie is not entirely supported by the movement.

The "Culture in Decline" and lecture series on youtube accurately inform and reflect on what the movement is all about.
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Old 08-31-2014, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
Ouch Cantus..you seriously linked that crackpot? Did you honestly read the stuff he critisizes? Just read it, seriously it's really quite amusing. He repeatedly insists that he's providing refutations and "debunkings", and in the end does nothing but claim that he is right because he says so, without backing it up with a single shred of actual evidence or argument, and TZM is a "cult" and Peter Joseph it's "leader".

That being said, there are severe inaccuracies and lazy statements in the first movie. It is important to remember that the first movie was not intended to become what it turned into. It wasn't intended to spark a movement, or be a "conspiracy theory documentary". It was simply an artistic project of Joseph's, that started out as performance art in New York City. The focus was on his own percussion and visual effects accompanying his view of the world.

The second movie moves into much more grounded and focused territory, the third continues this. Finally the "Culture in Decline" videos as well as the recent lecture video series by other participants in the movement really only deal with hard facts and what we propose.

I would highly suggest taking a look at the current manual or the newer video series, and disregard especially the first movie.

The first movie, especially the conspiracy theory part, basically has nothing to do with what TZM is trying to accomplish. In fact, whether or not 9/11 was a false flag or outside operation makes absolutely no difference to the end result in history and who benefited from it.

In any case, I would seriously suggest you read some of the stuff this guy actually claims to "refute". While his claims of inaccurate or misquotes are certainly true, especially on the first movie, his attempts to refute the explanation of the economic system are hilarious, to say the least. He blatantly reveals his complete misunderstanding of the fractional reserve banking system in almost every paragraph.

I agree with the sceptic's approach in general, and his claims on a lot of inaccuracies in the first movie specifically on conspiracy theories are valid.

However, he actually confirms himself multiple times to agree with wide stretches of especially the second movie and onward, and actually fails to debunk what he doesn't believe in that part. While he provides a plethora of all kinds of websites as sources for his attempts at rebuttal, these sources 9 out of 10 times do not lead to any factual debunking in his actual text aside from his own assertions.

TL;DR:
In short, i'd advise anyone who is interested in the movement to pretty much avoid the movies, at least the first one. It wasn't intended as the starting point of a movement, and the content of the first movie is not entirely supported by the movement.

The "Culture in Decline" and lecture series on youtube accurately inform and reflect on what the movement is all about.
I'll be honest, I don't give two shits about what that man produces after he tried to capitalize on the ludicrous stupidity of his first film. The refutations that I linked are the quick debunking versions, a TL;DR that works for the general public. The in-depth science version requires you to research each point presented yourself. Once you do that, you figure out that anyone claiming a comprehensive view on these things without the collective experience of physics, economics, biology, etc. is just a crackpot.

If we understood the world as well as Peter Joseph claimed we do, we'd have solved all our problems and then some by now. We don't understand each other, much less the society we live in or the planet we live on. To create a movement out of such misunderstandings is to create yet another religion which inevitably turns to worshipping the rites over the realities.
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Old 08-31-2014, 03:39 PM
miffy23 miffy23 is offline

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I'll be honest, I don't give two shits about what that man produces after he tried to capitalize on the ludicrous stupidity of his first film. The refutations that I linked are the quick debunking versions, a TL;DR that works for the general public. The in-depth science version requires you to research each point presented yourself. Once you do that, you figure out that anyone claiming a comprehensive view on these things without the collective experience of physics, economics, biology, etc. is just a crackpot.

If we understood the world as well as Peter Joseph claimed we do, we'd have solved all our problems and then some by now. We don't understand each other, much less the society we live in or the planet we live on. To create a movement out of such misunderstandings is to create yet another religion which inevitably turns to worshipping the rites over the realities.
I read the entire thing, because I am very much interested in criticism of claims. As I stated, the first movie definitely has a lot of misconceptions and issues. However, the movement isn't based on the claims of the first movie. It is based simply around the goal of striving for an RBE.

This blog doesn't really debunk anything, it merely points out a few misquotes or wrong quotes, which it is correct in. It also reviews dubious 9/11 claims, which really doesn't have anything to do with the movement.

But we do understand our world, much better than you may think we do.

I think you misunderstand what the movement really is or how it is structured. Peter Joseph is no leader. He has no authority, nor does he dictate any kind of doctrine or party line. There is no central hub, there is no leadership. It is simply a loose group of like-minded individuals from all walks of life that are interested in changing our economic and social system for the better.

The entirety of TZM is based on the scientific method and academic review - the very opposite of religion. Criticism is welcome, and discussion is the declared goal.

I'd like you to point out some of the fundamental misunderstandings the movement supposedly has in it's core premises, by the way. If you feel that strongly that they are wrong or misguided, you must know what you're talking about specifically.

I'd also invite you to watch this video, which is not by Peter Joseph in any way or form, and represents an excellent summary of the views and topics TZM deals with for the most part:



Also:



Most importantly, this:

(10) Is The Zeitgeist Movement related to Peter Joseph's Film Series?

No. While the word "Zeitgeist" is also associated with Peter Joseph's film series, "Zeitgeist: The Movie", "Zeitgeist: Addendum" and "Zeitgeist: Moving Forward", the film series based content isn't to be confused with the tenets of "The Zeitgeist Movement" here. Rather, the films were mere inspirations for "The Zeitgeist Movement" due to their popularity and overall message of seeking truth, peace, and sustainability in society.

The term "Zeitgeist" is defined as the The General intellectual, moral, and cultural climate of an era." The Term "movement" very simply implies "motion" and change, Therefore The Zeitgeist Movement is thus an organization which urges change in the dominant intellectual, moral and cultural climate of the time.

The Movement is not about Comparative Religion, False-Flag Terrorism, Economic Hit-men, Fractional Reserve Banking or the Federal Reserve. The films are unrelated to The Movement in detail and are personal expressions of Peter Joseph. There is often some confusion in this regard and in the most extreme cases some people have the knee-jerk reaction that TZM support's forbidden "Conspiracy Theories" or is "Anti-Religious" or the like. This type of rhetoric tends to be of a pejorative/insulting nature, used in the context of dismissal of The Movement by an erroneous and "taboo" external association. The fact is, there is no direct association whatsoever.
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Old 08-31-2014, 04:14 PM
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Let me rephrase my argument here, based on who and what I am. My personality, my job, and my preferences all sheer towards being insanely critical of things. I enjoy theorycrafting because it's a form of bullshitting that requires you to be critical of yourself and your own opinions in order to both correct yourself and create things that can be considered a rational path forwards (note that this has nothing to do with being right, just that there is a logical foundation behind the action).

My job is regulation of science and scientists. I deal with people trying to sell their cure-alls, specifically that what they're doing is logical and whose logic is not founded in illogical things (e.g. their manufacturing, testing, etc. are all following consistent, and logical methods in order to show a finished product that has consistent results). You would not believe the number of companies where shareholders misrepresent statistical data in order to get their drug past the FDA sensors.

This is not to say I have a perfectly tuned bullshit detector, but that I'm not going to roll-over after one position paper and a few high production videos. Throwing buzz-words and phrases at me (yes, that's exactly what the introduction to Mr. Joseph's paper reads as) and a few videos isn't going to sway me. Just like I don't agree with Paul Ryan's new budget proposal (all fluff, no substance, and a lot of "we'll find the money somewhere...over there in that liberal end of things...we're sure of it"), I need some data before I'm going to nod, smile, and agree.

Give me a well-written paper I can ask my friends in economics, biology, etc. to each review and verify those specific claims, and I'll start to come around. Start off with what you've just given me, and I can't agree with you now.
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Old 08-31-2014, 04:18 PM
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In Part II, entitled "All The World's a Stage" it goes on to talk about how the US Government knew about the attacks on September 11th, 2001 before hand and that it was a large conspiracy and cover up
Well I can immediately write up this movement as "Absolutely fucking pants on head retarded."

No but really. If you think the government knew about 9/11 you're a moron.
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Old 08-31-2014, 04:22 PM
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I find myself not caring. Society can do whatever it wants, if it doesn't effect me and my loved one directly I can't be bothered.
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Old 08-31-2014, 04:44 PM
miffy23 miffy23 is offline

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Let me rephrase my argument here, based on who and what I am. My personality, my job, and my preferences all sheer towards being insanely critical of things. I enjoy theorycrafting because it's a form of bullshitting that requires you to be critical of yourself and your own opinions in order to both correct yourself and create things that can be considered a rational path forwards (note that this has nothing to do with being right, just that there is a logical foundation behind the action).

My job is regulation of science and scientists. I deal with people trying to sell their cure-alls, specifically that what they're doing is logical and whose logic is not founded in illogical things (e.g. their manufacturing, testing, etc. are all following consistent, and logical methods in order to show a finished product that has consistent results). You would not believe the number of companies where shareholders misrepresent statistical data in order to get their drug past the FDA sensors.

This is not to say I have a perfectly tuned bullshit detector, but that I'm not going to roll-over after one position paper and a few high production videos. Throwing buzz-words and phrases at me (yes, that's exactly what the introduction to Mr. Joseph's paper reads as) and a few videos isn't going to sway me. Just like I don't agree with Paul Ryan's new budget proposal (all fluff, no substance, and a lot of "we'll find the money somewhere...over there in that liberal end of things...we're sure of it"), I need some data before I'm going to nod, smile, and agree.

Give me a well-written paper I can ask my friends in economics, biology, etc. to each review and verify those specific claims, and I'll start to come around. Start off with what you've just given me, and I can't agree with you now.
That's a perfectly valid stance, and skepticism is good. But how do you put some of the very abstract themes and concepts that TZM deals with, specifically that "buzzword"-filled essay (not a paper, a collection of essays, important distinction) into a qualitatively verifiable scientific postulation. The very broad approach and assumptions we often talk about are not easily put into concept you can test for validity.

Instead, we try to propagate and pursue certain areas that are being worked on in science right now, such as affiliated projects such as The Venus Project, and promoting awareness of and the support of projects involving alternative energy.

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Well I can immediately write up this movement as "Absolutely fucking pants on head retarded."

No but really. If you think the government knew about 9/11 you're a moron.
I'd like to stress again that TZM, that is the movement, and the goal of an RBE has NOTHING to do with the first movie, or 9/11 truthism, or any kind of conspiracy theories at that.

On an entirely personal level, I'd like to debate that because I believe there is enough uncertainty that warrants discussion without resorting to tinfoil hats, but since it really is not related to TZM and the goal of applying the scientific method to a social system at all, it would be very counterproductive.

Once more, TZM the movement and the claims made by the first movie in particular are entirely unrelated.

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I find myself not caring. Society can do whatever it wants, if it doesn't effect me and my loved one directly I can't be bothered.
I think it's safe to say that, in time, the collapse of the global economy and the destruction of our natural resources will affect everyone that isn't high enough on the power pyramid to be safe from most effects.
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Old 08-31-2014, 04:56 PM
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That's a perfectly valid stance, and skepticism is good. But how do you put some of the very abstract themes and concepts that TZM deals with, specifically that "buzzword"-filled essay (not a paper, a collection of essays, important distinction) into a qualitatively verifiable scientific postulation. The very broad approach and assumptions we often talk about are not easily put into concept you can test for validity.

Instead, we try to propagate and pursue certain areas that are being worked on in science right now, such as affiliated projects such as The Venus Project, and promoting awareness of and the support of projects involving alternative energy.
If your concepts are that abstract, then they're entirely bullshit. Science is one-thing at a time, observation and testing. We're talking 1,000 year plus timescales of understanding, not "here and now," or even a hundred years from now. Society simply doesn't evolve that fast (see Ferguson for that fact).
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Old 08-31-2014, 05:08 PM
miffy23 miffy23 is offline

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If your concepts are that abstract, then they're entirely bullshit. Science is one-thing at a time, observation and testing. We're talking 1,000 year plus timescales of understanding, not "here and now," or even a hundred years from now. Society simply doesn't evolve that fast (see Ferguson for that fact).
Social engineering is not something you can falsify through testing - only by putting it into practice and adapting as you go along.

Anyway, the core premise is a resource-based economy, which is in fact very much provable in all it's aspects, from the possibility of calculating optimal resource use and allocation, to striving to create better and efficient machinery and products, to preserving and nurturing our environment.

The whole basis of TZM is to apply the scientific method to our economy, all the rest is basically our speculation on what may happen in the wake of that, which is completely up for debate.

Let me put it another way:

How would you scientifically evaluate any socioeconomic system? Could you create a model to test the probable outcome of capitalism on society as a whole? I doubt it. So why demand it of an alternative approach as a whole, instead of dealing with the individual propositions contained in that approach, such as that of alternative energy.
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Old 08-31-2014, 05:42 PM
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Social engineering is not something you can falsify through testing - only by putting it into practice and adapting as you go along.

Anyway, the core premise is a resource-based economy, which is in fact very much provable in all it's aspects, from the possibility of calculating optimal resource use and allocation, to striving to create better and efficient machinery and products, to preserving and nurturing our environment.

The whole basis of TZM is to apply the scientific method to our economy, all the rest is basically our speculation on what may happen in the wake of that, which is completely up for debate.

Let me put it another way:

How would you scientifically evaluate any socioeconomic system? Could you create a model to test the probable outcome of capitalism on society as a whole? I doubt it. So why demand it of an alternative approach as a whole, instead of dealing with the individual propositions contained in that approach, such as that of alternative energy.
In the year 40,000 BCE people saw specific animals and plants as resources. They saw others as pests to be destroyed. Fast forward a few thousand more years and suddenly a great many of those plants and animals are resources and yet other things are pests or worthless.

Keep going on and on, and you realize that what we consider resources now are ever changing and growing. Further still, resources we previously considered vital are actually dangerous and considered contaminants (e.g. DDT).

Further still, we already do that to an extent, based not on our current direct resources, but on proposed resources. We're already at a theoretical resource economy, which means that you'd be going backwards, not forwards in following the TZM theory.

This, again, is why I'm saying I need data and the math behind it in order to evaluate (or rather, in order to have people more adept than I evaluate) what's being said versus what's rational. Right now, nothing that you've proposed is revolutionary in any aspect. In fact, most of it would just restart the same cycle we're in instead of creating a new "revolution."
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Old 08-31-2014, 06:51 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Minor complaint perhaps but I have to say that Peter Joseph's (and he is undoubtedly a major face in the movement) way of talking is counterproductive to attracting new people. He just uses too many fancy words which turn away less educated people and more importantly foreigners. Not to be immodest but my English is superb, for a self-taught outsider. And I definitely struggled with understanding him, what is the point of having an excellent message if people can't understand you? Using simpler language is surely possible and may attract a wider group of people.
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Old 08-31-2014, 07:21 PM
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Minor complaint perhaps but I have to say that Peter Joseph's (and he is undoubtedly a major face in the movement) way of talking is counterproductive to attracting new people. He just uses too many fancy words which turn away less educated people and more importantly foreigners. Not to be immodest but my English is superb, for a self-taught outsider. And I definitely struggled with understanding him, what is the point of having an excellent message if people can't understand you? Using simpler language is surely possible and may attract a wider group of people.
One of the funniest things about overuse of "fancy" vocabulary nowadays is that uneducated folks see it as arrogance and "educated" folks know enough of what it means to know when someone's bullshitting. God help it if Joseph were to engage in a conversation with not just an educated individual, but one whose education was targeted directly at his assumptions (e.g. he knows not only when vocabulary is misused, but also how to use it properly).
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Old 08-31-2014, 08:59 PM
Bolvar Bolvar is offline

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MY GOD CANTUS IS ACTUALLY TRYING TO ARGUE WITH MIFFY

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Even if you realize you're in a flat spin and try to eject, it might be too late..
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Old 08-31-2014, 09:02 PM
Fordragon Fordragon is offline

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One of the funniest things about overuse of "fancy" vocabulary nowadays is that uneducated folks see it as arrogance and "educated" folks know enough of what it means to know when someone's bullshitting. God help it if Joseph were to engage in a conversation with not just an educated individual, but one whose education was targeted directly at his assumptions (e.g. he knows not only when vocabulary is misused, but also how to use it properly).
Attracting stupid people is easy anyway. You don't really need a strategy to do it. After all: they're stupid. It's like tricking a child.
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Old 08-31-2014, 09:14 PM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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If your concepts are that abstract, then they're entirely bullshit. Science is one-thing at a time, observation and testing. We're talking 1,000 year plus timescales of understanding, not "here and now," or even a hundred years from now. Society simply doesn't evolve that fast (see Ferguson for that fact).
I would argue that society doesn't really "evolve" at all, its "evolution" is really just an illusion brought on by far more wealth and a different culture. It is just with better cultural practices and technology have created large amounts of wealth and freedom, which have lead to far less violence. If all of that wealth suddenly disappeared tomorrow, you can be damn sure that people would either start having to work their asses off over the next few centuries or so to get it back, or they would just start killing each other in order to get more for their group or families. Sumerian parents still had to scold their delinquent children for skipping classes and being lazy. Look at how little times have changed besides technology and science? If we, in our so-called "enlightened" and "progressive" society can not overcome childhood delinquency, of which parents in ancient Sumeria had to struggle with, than there is not a glimmer of hope of ever overcoming our nature. It is best that we put aside foolish idealism, and strive for more wealth and better technology, rather than insane social engineering, which will always be doomed to inevitable failure.
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Old 08-31-2014, 09:30 PM
Cantus Cantus is offline

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MY GOD CANTUS IS ACTUALLY TRYING TO ARGUE WITH MIFFY

It's like this scene from Top Gun:

Even if you realize you're in a flat spin and try to eject, it might be too late..
I'm sure I'm going to fail, but in the process, maybe I'll save a few people who would've been swayed by his argument.
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Attracting stupid people is easy anyway. You don't really need a strategy to do it. After all: they're stupid. It's like tricking a child.
Stupidity has one advantage that we don't, once you lock them into a position, they're nearly impossible to move. If you can lock a stupid person into not following a cult/cult-mindset that's a net negative, you can at least stop them from going further down the path of stupid.
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I would argue that society doesn't really "evolve" at all, its "evolution" is really just an illusion brought on by far more wealth and a different culture. It is just with better cultural practices and technology have created large amounts of wealth and freedom, which have lead to far less violence. If all of that wealth suddenly disappeared tomorrow, you can be damn sure that people would either start having to work their asses off over the next few centuries or so to get it back, or they would just start killing each other in order to get more for their group or families. Sumerian parents still had to scold their delinquent children for skipping classes and being lazy. Look at how little times have changed besides technology and science? If we, in our so-called "enlightened" and "progressive" society can not overcome childhood delinquency, of which parents in ancient Sumeria had to struggle with, than there is not a glimmer of hope of ever overcoming our nature. It is best that we put aside foolish idealism, and strive for more wealth and better technology, rather than insane social engineering, which will always be doomed to inevitable failure.
Oh, we'd eat each other alive in a heart-beat, the only question is how difficult it would be to climb back out of the proverbial primordial ooze. Humanity should measure itself by how easily it adapts (e.g. less chaos between changes), not by whether its adaptation is a getting more positive. Why? Because we don't know what's positive, only that we should eventually* be able to not kill each other getting there.

* Eventually = a bare minimum of 5,000 years.
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Old 09-01-2014, 12:56 AM
miffy23 miffy23 is offline

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In the year 40,000 BCE people saw specific animals and plants as resources. They saw others as pests to be destroyed. Fast forward a few thousand more years and suddenly a great many of those plants and animals are resources and yet other things are pests or worthless.

Keep going on and on, and you realize that what we consider resources now are ever changing and growing. Further still, resources we previously considered vital are actually dangerous and considered contaminants (e.g. DDT).

Further still, we already do that to an extent, based not on our current direct resources, but on proposed resources. We're already at a theoretical resource economy, which means that you'd be going backwards, not forwards in following the TZM theory.

This, again, is why I'm saying I need data and the math behind it in order to evaluate (or rather, in order to have people more adept than I evaluate) what's being said versus what's rational. Right now, nothing that you've proposed is revolutionary in any aspect. In fact, most of it would just restart the same cycle we're in instead of creating a new "revolution."

Nothing you've said or proposed actually refutes the fact that our system is killing our environment, or that a scientific method applied to our economy would yield better results with more fairness for everyone.

TZM will be the first ones to tell you (and it actually says so right at the beginning of the guide) that none of the concepts come from TZM itself. None of this is new, these ideas have been around for a while. The difference is we now have the technological means to create an abundance and to manage the logistics of global resource management, as well as the technology to facilitate global real-time communication as well as global democracy.

You need data and math behind a specific hypothesis in science. The general concept of TZM is not a hypothesis, it is a systematic approach to the implementation of several already reviewed and tested hypotheses, along with the aim to test several other theories and advance research in multiple areas.

I can understand that it doesn't satisfy you as long as it doesn't yield hard numbers, but the social system is hard to put into hard numbers. The economy however, is not. And those numbers are there.

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Minor complaint perhaps but I have to say that Peter Joseph's (and he is undoubtedly a major face in the movement) way of talking is counterproductive to attracting new people. He just uses too many fancy words which turn away less educated people and more importantly foreigners. Not to be immodest but my English is superb, for a self-taught outsider. And I definitely struggled with understanding him, what is the point of having an excellent message if people can't understand you? Using simpler language is surely possible and may attract a wider group of people.
That is definitely an issue with his work. He revels in his intellectualism.
That is why the movement diversifies, and I recommend the lecture series for example, that I linked here, for far more direct and easier access to the movement's problems.

@ Cantus if you'd care to point out where his heavy wordiness is actually misleading or wrong?

I appreciate the very healthy skepticism, but so far I haven't seen any actual refutations of claims that TZM (the movement) makes, or of our aims. There is a lot of ridicule for the first movie, and rightly so. However, the movie has nothing to do with TZM, and deals with not a single one of the topics proposed in it.

Your critique so far has been very vague, without actually pointing out any perceived errors or misconceptions.

Might I suggest you take a look at the lecture video (Not by Peter Joseph, doesn't touch on a single subject from the movies, only about the movement), and then maybe formulate a clear rebuttal for any of the points if you feel so inclined?

TZM is, by the way, completely non-profit and an utterly loose and antihierarchical organization. So there really is no "gain" in any of us "swaying" anyone. Our aim is to create discussion.

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and strive for more wealth and better technology
Except that striving for more wealth DIRECTLY contradicts striving for the best technology. When making a tool, what would you expect of the ideal result? It should last as long as possible, and work as efficiently as possible, using as little resource as can be to perform it's task, if it needs any, and it should produce as little waste in it's creation and function as possible. The striving for wealth, or profit in our system, directly contradicts this, as is evident in the rampant waste and destruction of our environment and resources in the name of it. Simply because an appliance that lasts a lifetime and doesn't require ever more energy that you need to purchase (say for example a vacuum cleaner and electricity) would not be profitable.

A very simple question: we have the means, right now, today - to create an abundance of food and water for everyone on the planet. Yet we continue to have nearly one full sixth of the population undernourished or starving, while the top percentiles consume food imported from the cheapest labour and resource sources, instead of producing clean, green food locally. Do you see any other reason for this than that the system perpetuates the need for profit, over efficiency and social behaviour?
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