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  #1251  
Old 10-25-2011, 10:55 AM
Kellick Kellick is offline

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Originally Posted by Moonrunner View Post
I disagree.

What are blood elves and forsaken mages compared their humans/gnomes/Dark Iron/Draene/highborne/ high elves and worgens counterparts?
Don't forget the Trolls, whose voodoo is superior to arcane in some respects. I don't think it would be giving them a fair shake to discount the Goblins or even the Ogres, either.
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  #1252  
Old 10-25-2011, 10:56 AM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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Originally Posted by Moonrunner View Post
I disagree.

What are blood elves and forsaken mages compared their humans/gnomes/Dark Iron/Draene/highborne/ high elves and worgens counterparts?
I think the notion a lot of people have is that magic permeates every aspect of life in blood elf society, and their magical application is more towards military while other races are mostly research.
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  #1253  
Old 10-25-2011, 11:00 AM
Divider Divider is offline

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Originally Posted by Vexander View Post
The Forsaken represent a -tiny- portion of the Scourge, nothing that significant.
Compared to the Scourge, no they are not that significant. Neither the Horde or the Alliance would be all that significant to the Scourge if numbers were the only factor.

But again, all we know about the Forsaken military is that no one in canon ever considered it to be just another picnic on Tuesday. They are not a nonentity. Saying that they are not that significant ignores basically everything about them in the EK.

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The Blood Elves aren't even the whole 10% of the surviving members of their race. You lose 1% to High Elves, then 2% to neutral Scryers, and probably 4% remains loyal to Kael and were killed in Outland/Quel'danas, leaving you with 3% of that race being in the Horde.
And uh, where are these percentages coming from?

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Considering the mortality rate of Goblins, they aren't much to field.
What?

If anything, it indicates that they have a lot of goblins to replace the dead. Otherwise, there'd be nobody left on Kezan long long long before Deathwing showed up.

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There are serious issues with their technology, but their numbers make up for that and bring them roughly to the same level of usefulness as Gnomes do for the Alliance.
I would argue that the goblins made a bigger impact on the Horde than the Gnomes did for the Alliance. Wanting to go home and all kinda takes some of the bite out of the package.

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A decade for the Trolls, Tauren, and Orcs to replenish their numbers and bring in their younglings to the armed forces is kind of the same thing for the Alliance's races as well. While the above three mature fast than most Alliance races, there are some unknowns, such as how long worgen take to mature.
Again,
Would logic alone dictate that a higher percentage of the Horde would be able to be soldiers than the percentage of the Alliance?
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  #1254  
Old 10-25-2011, 11:12 AM
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For more pragmatic terms on an over theoretical discussion: logic doesn't matter for either of these factions, because whichever faction - if any - chosen by Blizzard will win the war, and they'll come up with whatever reasons they want to explain it. In Azeroth the existence of magic, demigods and superpowers far offsets any kind of conventional strategy and numerical advantage anyway. I expect highly powerful beings like Malfurion, Tyrande, Thrall or Sylvanas to be able to tear dozens if not hundreds of enemies apart, when challenged.

Blizzard has also shown, more than once, that any species, no matter how endangered or few in numbers, can still come up with huge armies out of nowhere. I won't be surprised if in the end we'll even be able to stand toe to toe with the Burning Legion.

Whoever Blizzard wants to win will win, and I don't think numbers really matter in Warcraft.
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  #1255  
Old 10-25-2011, 11:15 AM
Vexander Vexander is offline

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Originally Posted by Meta View Post
For more pragmatic terms on an over theoretical discussion: logic doesn't matter for either of these factions, because whichever faction - if any - chosen by Blizzard will win the war, and they'll come up with whatever reasons they want to explain it. In Azeroth the existence of magic, demigods and superpowers far offsets any kind of conventional strategy and numerical advantage anyway. I expect highly powerful beings like Malfurion, Tyrande, Thrall or Sylvanas to be able to tear dozens if not hundreds of enemies apart, when challenged.

Blizzard has also shown, more than once, that any species, no matter how endangered or few in numbers, can still come up with huge armies out of nowhere. I won't be surprised if in the end we'll even be able to stand toe to toe with the Burning Legion.

Whoever Blizzard wants to win will win, and I don't think numbers really matter in Warcraft.
This is the truth of it in the end.


To address a few minor points though, the Horde basically was the gathering of races/peoples who were already small in number for one reason or another. While its likely in that time they've increase their numbers, its ridiculous to assume the Alliance hasn't done the same. Granted, numbers alone will not win a war.

I just retain the belief that, given past trends, the Alliance retains the upper hand in numbers.
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  #1256  
Old 10-25-2011, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Aldrius View Post
IF it stays trashed and IF they don't replace it with another town/city very close by. Which I'm betting they will.

I imagine this stuff is leading to Arathi and Dustwallow revamps and nothing more.



We're not talking about a few zones. We're talking about 5 different zones. Some of the most heavily changed and popular zones in the game. (Tirisfal, Silverpine, WPL, EPL, Hillsbrad.) Oh, and they need to design a pair of new capital cities. And the Forsaken lose something really iconic for something less iconic.

And where would the 1-10 experience be? And what would the Alliance actually USE those 4 new zones they'd have to get to justify this? They just spent all this time BALANCING the zone count, why would they mess that up? AND mess up their leveling philosophy for the old world?

Nothing about this would add up.



It's in Kalimdor. I doubt it's the Forsaken leading the charge. I feel pretty safe guaranteeing that in fact.
Who says the Horde loses all those zones in their entirety?

They're putting the WAR back in WarCraft.

I submit to you that the Alliance re-captures Capitol City, and the zones the Forsaken enjoy now remain contested and used for both factions. Dustwallow would obviously get a revamp and be a primarily Horde leveling zone.
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  #1257  
Old 10-25-2011, 11:19 AM
Ku'ja Ku'ja is offline

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Originally Posted by Moonrunner View Post
I disagree.

What are blood elves and forsaken mages compared to their humans/gnomes/Dark Iron/Draene/highborne/ high elves and worgens counterparts?
I wouldn't go that far as i think that the Blood Elves are far superior than the rest when it comes to using Magic but they are not really devoted to what the Horde wants and mainly joined for aid. I do hope that changes though and Garrosh calls the Blood Elves to aid them in battle considering they aided them back in TBC.
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  #1258  
Old 10-25-2011, 11:23 AM
Crazyterran Crazyterran is offline

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Originally Posted by Kellick View Post
Don't forget the Trolls, whose voodoo is superior to arcane in some respects. I don't think it would be giving them a fair shake to discount the Goblins or even the Ogres, either.
Give me one example of voodoo outing Arcane Magic.

It quite clearly didn't help the Trolls during the Troll Wars, or during the time when the Elves had the well, hmm? Did it?

To Aldrius:

If, theoretically, the Horde got all of Dustwallow, would you by fine with the Alliance getting all of the Arathi Highlands?

I just want to see where you stand on that, to get a better response of how to respond to you >.>.
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  #1259  
Old 10-25-2011, 11:27 AM
Kellick Kellick is offline

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Originally Posted by Crazyterran View Post
Give me one example of voodoo outing Arcane Magic.

It quite clearly didn't help the Trolls during the Troll Wars, or during the time when the Elves had the well, hmm? Did it?

To Aldrius:

If, theoretically, the Horde got all of Dustwallow, would you by fine with the Alliance getting all of the Arathi Highlands?

I just want to see where you stand on that, to get a better response of how to respond to you >.>.
I'll give you two (well, technically, they're two sources of one example, but you know what I mean. ).

http://www.wowpedia.org/Eerie_Smolderthorn_Idol and http://www.wowpedia.org/Zanza_the_Re...anza.27s_story
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  #1260  
Old 10-25-2011, 11:28 AM
Vexander Vexander is offline

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Originally Posted by Ku'ja View Post
I wouldn't go that far as i think that the Blood Elves are far superior than the rest when it comes to using Magic but they are not really devoted to what the Horde wants and mainly joined for aid. I do hope that changes though and Garrosh calls the Blood Elves to aid them in battle considering they aided them back in TBC.
I've always felt the Blood Elves needed a leader that pointed out much the opposite.

The Blood Elves joined the Horde, helped them get to Outland, provided them with the benefit of great magic and such. What did the Horde ever do for the Blood Elves? The -Forsaken- helped them, sure, but that was before the Blood Elves had even joined the Horde. The Horde did nothing, and has done -nothing- for the Blood Elves since they've joined. Quel'danas and the betrayal of Kael'thas was handled by the Shattered Sun Offensive, not the Horde.

By contrast the Blood Elves have worked since then to provide the Horde with a great deal of support, such as getting into Dalaran in the first place, and further with the Argent Crusade, working damage control for the most part. The Reliquary has given the Horde a group to rival the Explorer's League.


I ask, what has the Horde done for the Blood Elves =)?
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  #1261  
Old 10-25-2011, 11:31 AM
Ku'ja Ku'ja is offline

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Originally Posted by Vexander View Post
I've always felt the Blood Elves needed a leader that pointed out much the opposite.

The Blood Elves joined the Horde, helped them get to Outland, provided them with the benefit of great magic and such. What did the Horde ever do for the Blood Elves? The -Forsaken- helped them, sure, but that was before the Blood Elves had even joined the Horde. The Horde did nothing, and has done -nothing- for the Blood Elves since they've joined. Quel'danas and the betrayal of Kael'thas was handled by the Shattered Sun Offensive, not the Horde.

By contrast the Blood Elves have worked since then to provide the Horde with a great deal of support, such as getting into Dalaran in the first place, and further with the Argent Crusade, working damage control for the most part. The Reliquary has given the Horde a group to rival the Explorer's League.


I ask, what has the Horde done for the Blood Elves =)?
Keep them safe ?

Back then they were a broken people and the majority where actually at Outlands while the rest were left with the Undead and Forest Trolls knocking on there doorstep along with the Wretched.

Most of what the Blood Elves had done for the Horde they really only meant to do for themselves which is true as they are quite the selfish race and have not been active in any major wars against the Alliance yet.
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  #1262  
Old 10-25-2011, 11:31 AM
Crazyterran Crazyterran is offline

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Originally Posted by Kellick View Post
I'll give you two (well, technically, they're two sources of one example, but you know what I mean. ).

http://www.wowpedia.org/Eerie_Smolderthorn_Idol and http://www.wowpedia.org/Zanza_the_Re...anza.27s_story
To bad that's been retconned out of Zul'gurub? The temple isn't even there anymore T_T.

Well, I think, while some Voodoo has been shown to be stronger (so, in the case of very specific enchants ), that Arcane magic is over all better for the important things.

Like killing shit. Since we use it all the god damn time to kill Trolls. ("Troll Wars 1: A New Elf", "The Troll Wars 2: The Amani Strike Back" and "Troll Wars 3: Return of the Zandalari")

THOUGH, YOU TROLLS DO MAKE GOOD ENCHANTS. MMMMHMMMM.
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  #1263  
Old 10-25-2011, 11:34 AM
Vexander Vexander is offline

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Originally Posted by Ku'ja View Post
Keep them safe ?

Back then they were a broken people and the majority where actually at Outlands while the rest were left with the Undead and Forest Trolls knocking on there doorstep along with the Wretched.

Most of what the Blood Elves had done for the Horde they really only meant to do for themselves which is true as they are quite the selfish race and have not been active in any major wars against the Alliance yet.
Again, I saw Forsaken, prior to joining the Horde.

As for doing things they meant to do for themselves, if Shadow of the Sun is indeed canon, the Blood Elves had no intention of going to Northrend at all, and were forced to by the Horde.


I really can't find a single thing the Horde has done for the Blood Elves. Nothing short of providing that good old diplomatic immunity.
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  #1264  
Old 10-25-2011, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Crazyterran View Post
To bad that's been retconned out of Zul'gurub? The temple isn't even there anymore T_T.

Well, I think, while some Voodoo has been shown to be stronger (so, in the case of very specific enchants ), that Arcane magic is over all better for the important things.

Like killing shit. Since we use it all the god damn time to kill Trolls. ("Troll Wars 1: A New Elf", "The Troll Wars 2: The Amani Strike Back" and "Troll Wars 3: Return of the Zandalari")

THOUGH, YOU TROLLS DO MAKE GOOD ENCHANTS. MMMMHMMMM.
Zanza doesn't have that dialogue anymore, but the idol was added in Cataclysm, so it's still canonical. So voodoo can supplant some schools of arcane magic.

Though yes, that hasn't exactly helped the Trolls any.
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  #1265  
Old 10-25-2011, 11:42 AM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
This phrase confuses me. What does Zarhym mean by it?
That the new Alliance has been scattered and broken ever since WC3. The new Alliance didn't have the sense of, let's face it, racial unity that the old one did. There was no unified leader to take charge of the Alliance, each nation was a separate body whereas the Horde had a strict hierarchy: No matter who you were or from whence you came, in the Horde, you answer to the Warchief.

With Varians' coronation to High King, and the entire Alliance rejuvenated for war against the Horde for the destruction of Theramore, the new alliance will finally, after 10 years of WoW lore, be unified and expanding.

That is how I read it, at least.
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  #1266  
Old 10-25-2011, 11:44 AM
Vexander Vexander is offline

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Originally Posted by Kellick View Post
Zanza doesn't have that dialogue anymore, but the idol was added in Cataclysm, so it's still canonical. So voodoo can supplant some schools of arcane magic.

Though yes, that hasn't exactly helped the Trolls any.
And Kael'thas was a Master of Enchanting who made -legendaries- that he could control to fight for him.


So, you have a Loa providing amazing enchantments, and then you have someone like Kael'thas -making- LEGENDARIES.

Its all in context, really.
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  #1267  
Old 10-25-2011, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Crazyterran View Post
To Aldrius:

If, theoretically, the Horde got all of Dustwallow, would you by fine with the Alliance getting all of the Arathi Highlands?

I just want to see where you stand on that, to get a better response of how to respond to you >.>.
If I may respond to this:

Barring obvious leveling issues, that would be a fair trade. Getting a second human kingdom up and running, regardless of it being Gilneas, Kul'Tiras or Stromgarde, would be a valid way to spice things up, though we're more likely be seeing the extension of Alliance action in Stonard, as that town was Horde's counterpart to Theramore for some reason.

Come to think of it, does Horde have any town remotely similar to Theramore? New Kargath is the only one that comes to mind, but it never had as extensive a lore as Theramore did. Perhaps Stonard as one of the original settlements IS fitting if we ignore the size.
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  #1268  
Old 10-25-2011, 11:52 AM
Vexander Vexander is offline

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Originally Posted by tufy View Post
If I may respond to this:

Barring obvious leveling issues, that would be a fair trade. Getting a second human kingdom up and running, regardless of it being Gilneas, Kul'Tiras or Stromgarde, would be a valid way to spice things up, though we're more likely be seeing the extension of Alliance action in Stonard, as that town was Horde's counterpart to Theramore for some reason.

Come to think of it, does Horde have any town remotely similar to Theramore? New Kargath is the only one that comes to mind, but it never had as extensive a lore as Theramore did. Perhaps Stonard as one of the original settlements IS fitting if we ignore the size.
Bilgewater Harbor.
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  #1269  
Old 10-25-2011, 11:55 AM
Yakitori Yakitori is offline

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Originally Posted by Bolvar View Post
Who says the Horde loses all those zones in their entirety?

They're putting the WAR back in WarCraft.

I submit to you that the Alliance re-captures Capitol City, and the zones the Forsaken enjoy now remain contested and used for both factions. Dustwallow would obviously get a revamp and be a primarily Horde leveling zone.
...so... you still haven't answered the questions of:

-Why would the Argent Crusade/a reborn Knights of the Silver Hand/the Brotherhood of the Light allow the Forsaken to move into Stratholme?
-Where do you send the Forsaken for their 1-10 and 10-20 zones, since Strat is landlocked and EPL is right outside?
-What would the Alliance do with Tirisfal/Silverpine anyway?
-Are you suggesting the Forsaken still do 1-20 in those two zones, except with those zones as Contested?
--More to the point, how the hell would that be a good idea? The only Contested zone from 1-20 is Redridge, and there's a) no Horde city near there (which would not be the same with Capital City being an Alliance... well, city) and b) should be fucking Alliance territory anyway (makes killing the guards more fun). They had a reason for not having the Worgen and the Forsaken share a 10-20 zone, because it screams "PvP clusterfuck"; despite rumors to the contrary, Ashenvale isn't exactly phased.
-Who do you even send to Dustwallow if it became a Horde leveling zone?
-Who IS Eric Cartman's father?

And so on.
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  #1270  
Old 10-25-2011, 12:03 PM
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I dunno, In response to Lochnar's or whomever's question - I think the Horde does need to ride the atrocity ghost train for a while longer. Garrosh may have an honor code, but - as shown by others under him, those commanders don't.
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Old 10-25-2011, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Vexander View Post
Bilgewater Harbor.
Right, forgot about the Cannontown. Still, that's unlikely to happen. It's too close to Orgrimmar, in a Horde zone and Blizzard just added it an expansion ago. Blowing it up already would make too many cry.
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Old 10-25-2011, 12:10 PM
Yakitori Yakitori is offline

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Originally Posted by Crazyterran View Post
To Aldrius:

If, theoretically, the Horde got all of Dustwallow, would you by fine with the Alliance getting all of the Arathi Highlands?

I just want to see where you stand on that, to get a better response of how to respond to you >.>.
I know I'm not Aldrius, but I think this would, for the most part, be a pretty big problem. The Dwarves, Gnomes, BElfs, and Forsaken questing in EK come together in Arathi, then move on to Hinterlands before heading to WPL to join with the Human "Official Leveling Path" that goes through both halves of STV. While it's perfectly feasible for the EK Horde to go from Hillsbrad to North STV, there's still the issue of the Hinterlands and, to get to my point, the sudden lack of a "path" to get there, effectively removing a second zone from the "logical" leveling trail.

At least with Kalimdor and Dustwallow, it's not too painful of a hit; Dustwallow is the end of the branch that connects things back together from Stonetalon, so it's a single zone loss (and, let's face it, Feralas is the superior choice to get to 1K Needles) for the Alliance, whereas Arathi cuts itself AND Hinterlands off for the Horde.

Plus, Blizzard just got done setting the level progressions out for both continents, why would they stick their dick in the proverbial pudding now? Like I said earlier, if anything, they'll update Arathi to not suck quite so much and give Stromgarde to the Alliance as their main quest hub, but the Horde will still have a decent presence there... and it'll be something similar in Dustwallow, with the updating and both sides maintaining a decent presence there.
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  #1273  
Old 10-25-2011, 12:16 PM
Vexander Vexander is offline

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Originally Posted by Yakitori View Post
I know I'm not Aldrius, but I think this would, for the most part, be a pretty big problem. The Dwarves, Gnomes, BElfs, and Forsaken questing in EK come together in Arathi, then move on to Hinterlands before heading to WPL to join with the Human "Official Leveling Path" that goes through both halves of STV. While it's perfectly feasible for the EK Horde to go from Hillsbrad to North STV, there's still the issue of the Hinterlands and, to get to my point, the sudden lack of a "path" to get there, effectively removing a second zone from the "logical" leveling trail.
Blizzard could always do the unthinkable and, I don't know... add quests to Alterac Mountain for the Forsaken and Blood Elves?
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  #1274  
Old 10-25-2011, 12:22 PM
Ku'ja Ku'ja is offline

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Originally Posted by Yakitori View Post
I know I'm not Aldrius, but I think this would, for the most part, be a pretty big problem. The Dwarves, Gnomes, BElfs, and Forsaken questing in EK come together in Arathi, then move on to Hinterlands before heading to WPL to join with the Human "Official Leveling Path" that goes through both halves of STV. While it's perfectly feasible for the EK Horde to go from Hillsbrad to North STV, there's still the issue of the Hinterlands and, to get to my point, the sudden lack of a "path" to get there, effectively removing a second zone from the "logical" leveling trail.

At least with Kalimdor and Dustwallow, it's not too painful of a hit; Dustwallow is the end of the branch that connects things back together from Stonetalon, so it's a single zone loss (and, let's face it, Feralas is the superior choice to get to 1K Needles) for the Alliance, whereas Arathi cuts itself AND Hinterlands off for the Horde.

Plus, Blizzard just got done setting the level progressions out for both continents, why would they stick their dick in the proverbial pudding now? Like I said earlier, if anything, they'll update Arathi to not suck quite so much and give Stromgarde to the Alliance as their main quest hub, but the Horde will still have a decent presence there... and it'll be something similar in Dustwallow, with the updating and both sides maintaining a decent presence there.
They could easily do a STV and go back and make the high level version of the zone phased.
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Old 10-25-2011, 12:32 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Originally Posted by Magistrix Verdande View Post
That the new Alliance has been scattered and broken ever since WC3. The new Alliance didn't have the sense of, let's face it, racial unity that the old one did. There was no unified leader to take charge of the Alliance, each nation was a separate body whereas the Horde had a strict hierarchy: No matter who you were or from whence you came, in the Horde, you answer to the Warchief.

With Varians' coronation to High King, and the entire Alliance rejuvenated for war against the Horde for the destruction of Theramore, the new alliance will finally, after 10 years of WoW lore, be unified and expanding.

That is how I read it, at least.
I agree mostly, except for the notion that there's a "new Alliance." There isn't. The Alliance has never gone through any reformation or reorganization like the Horde has. This Alliance is the same one created by Terenas and Lothar in the Second War to combat the Horde.
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"Noble countrymen, evil is upon us. Darkness has befallen our shores. Rise and slay thy enemies� strike, strike so others shall live. The meek shall not fade into the night� live my brethren, live." - King Terenas Menethil II
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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
You are right Fojar.
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You are right Fojar.
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You are right Fojar.
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Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
You are right Fojar.
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