Scrolls of Lore Forums  

Go Back   Scrolls of Lore Forums > WarCraft Discussion > WarCraft Lore Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1376  
Old 10-26-2011, 02:01 AM
Fojar Fojar is offline

Elune
Fojar's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Toronto, Lordaeron
Posts: 17,442

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Porimlys View Post
Oh, so did Bael'gun come post treaty? Is there confirmation of that?
I was referring to Northwatch.

Quote:
Could you provide the exact quote? I'm sorry, but it's hard to believe: game mechanics and all, but Barrens is clearly shown as Horde territory, at least all of its north and east.
Regrettably I don't have my copy with me, but it being Horde territory in game is purely gameplay mechanics.
__________________
"Noble countrymen, evil is upon us. Darkness has befallen our shores. Rise and slay thy enemies� strike, strike so others shall live. The meek shall not fade into the night� live my brethren, live." - King Terenas Menethil II
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
You are right Fojar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pajamasalad View Post
You are right Fojar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderbraid View Post
You are right Fojar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
You are right Fojar.
Reply With Quote
  #1377  
Old 10-26-2011, 02:02 AM
Porimlys Porimlys is offline

Elune
Porimlys's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 9,979
BattleTag: CptCarrot #1688

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
I was referring to Northwatch.

Oh, but I thought Cycle of Hatred started with Horde assaults on Northwatch?

(Forgive me, I haven't read this one)
__________________

Last edited by Porimlys; 10-26-2011 at 02:44 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #1378  
Old 10-26-2011, 02:32 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

The Sun King
Kir the Wizard's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Donetsk, Occupied Ukraine
Posts: 11,115

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
Regrettably I don't have my copy with me, but it being Horde territory in game is purely gameplay mechanics.
Well, then, let's see what I could find.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cycle of Hatred
The captain swallowed a gulp of his ale, then said, "Perhaps them orcs told her to leave Northwatch."

"We should leave Northwatch," the merchant said. "The Barrens are neutral territory, that was agreed to from the beginning."The soldier stiffened. "You're crazy if you think we're givin' that up."

Margoz said, "That is where the orcs fought Admiral Proudmoore."

"Yes, an embarrassment. As fine a leader as Lady Proudmoore is, that's as much of an idiot her father was." The merchant shook his head. "That entire sordid incident should be put out of our heads. But it won't be as long as--"

The captain interrupted. "If'n you ask me, we need to expand beyond Northwatch."

Sounding annoyed, though whether at the interruption or the sentiment, Erik neither knew nor cared, the merchant said, "Are you mad?"

"Are you? The orcs're squeezin' us out! They're all over the blessed continent, and we've got Theramore. It's been three year since the Burning Legion was sent off. Don't we deserve better than to be lower class in our own land--to be confined to one cesspool of a city-state?"

"Theramore is as fine a city as you will see in human lands." The soldier spoke the words with a defensive pride, only to be followed by a more resigned tone. "But it is true, that the orcs have greater territory. That is why Northwatch is essential--it allows us to maintain a defense beyond the walls of Theramore."

"Besides," the first mate said with a laugh into his ale mug, "the orcs don't like us there. That's reason enough to keep it, y'ask me."

"Nobody asked you," the merchant said snidely.

The other man at the bar--Erik had wandered downbar a bit, and now saw that it was that bookkeeper who worked the docks--said, "Maybe someone should. The orcs act as if they own Kalimdor, and we're just visiting. But this is our home, too, and it's time we acted like it. Orcs aren't humans, aren't even from this world. What right do they have to dictate how we live our lives?"

"They have the right to live their lives, don't they?" the merchant asked.
Quote:
Jaina shook her head. Kristoff's prediction was the worst nightmare of every human living on Kalimdor. It seemed like only yesterday that they were well on the road to making those nightmares an impossibility. Trade with the orcs was going smoothly, the Barrensneutral territory between Durotar and Theramorehad been peaceful and orderly, and the two species that had once despised each other had lived in peace for three years.
Quote:
Very well. Burx, have Nazgrel assemble a garrison and send them into the Barrens. Have them take up position outside of Northwatch.
So, what can we say?
The Barrens are defined as Neutral territory. Not as no-man's-land. In fact, Jaina describes life their as "peaceful and orderly", with "two species living in peace for three years". So there is population in the region.
In this case, Neutral region probably means that no military detachment and no military outpost can be built in this territory. That explains both the Orc commander's hardiness about sending troops to Northwatch and the Humans talking about the idea of leaving Northwatch, as its existence goes against the treaty.

Ergo, any military outpost in Barrens means going against the treaty, which both sides are guilty of. However, the problem comes when you try to differ military outposts and civilian settlements in Warcraft, especially when the Barrens' denizens are hostile and any settler should be armed against the threats. I'd say that the presense of armed fighters in Camp Taurajo was, in fact, settlement's own militia, not Horde's military. Not sure about Crossroads, though. As for the Alliance, its only non-military settlement in the region is Theramore City: Orcs are "all over the blessed continent, and we've got Theramore."

If Orcs are "all over the continent", then Barrens is, again, not a no-man's-land, and is inhabited by Orcs too, otherwise it wouldn't be possible. Though, perhaps, the author used an older map, where Durotar is bigger than in WoW.
Reply With Quote
  #1379  
Old 10-26-2011, 02:41 AM
Porimlys Porimlys is offline

Elune
Porimlys's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 9,979
BattleTag: CptCarrot #1688

Default

Well I concede defeat to that argument. But I want to reiterate that the treaty is a meaningless piece of paper now, and I think the Barrens can be considered Horde territory again. Obviously the Alliance doesn't care or doesn't agree, because in War they are now invading it. So from both perspectives, they are neither right nor wrong in their assessment of the Barrens.
__________________

Last edited by Porimlys; 10-26-2011 at 02:44 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #1380  
Old 10-26-2011, 03:09 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

The Sun King
Kir the Wizard's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Donetsk, Occupied Ukraine
Posts: 11,115

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Porimlys View Post
Well I concede defeat to that argument. But I want to reiterate that the treaty is a meaningless piece of paper now, and I think the Barrens can be considered Horde territory again. Obviously the Alliance doesn't care or doesn't agree, because in War they are now invading it. So from both perspectives, they are neither right nor wrong in their assessment of the Barrens.
Well, the Alliance started building military outposts on the neutral territory. Instead of demanding to withdraw them in a diplomatic way, the Horde moved its own forces into the neutral land. Both are guilty for igniting the conflict: Theramore for starting it in the first place and Durotar for not trying to deal with the problems diplomatically. One meeting between Jaina and Thrall and the problem is resolved.

However, there is no mention that the treaty was between the Horde and the Alliance. It may have been signed between the nations of Theramore and Durotar. Confederacy of Mulgore tribes and Kingdom of Khaz Modan may go outside of the treaty. There was a reason Bael Modan in vanilla was neither assaulted by Orcs (Durotar military couldn't act in the region according to the treaty), nor defended by Humans or High Elves (same as Orcs), it was a conflict between local Tauren tribe and militarized Ironforge colonists. Either Theramore helping the dwarves or Durotar sending reinforcements to the Tauren would be against the treaty, that's why the Tauren avenger needed mercenaries (players) to help him deal with Bael Modan.
Reply With Quote
  #1381  
Old 10-26-2011, 03:11 AM
Jiwat Jiwat is offline

Arch-Druid
Jiwat's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,043

Default

Bael Modan has mortars. Civilian town? O_o

It looks more like New Zoram'gar than Old Zoram'gar if you get my drift. I realize that the Barrens means wild enemies and the like, but when I think of a civilian settlement, I think of Goldshire or The Crossroads. At minimum, it's closer to Razor Hill, which is quite military focused if you look at it (bunker, trainers, etc). And as CMT pointed out, it got a detachment of military as soon as they started digging into the ground.

Dwarves are My Other Fanboy Race, but Bael Modan is where they started behaving more like Venture Goblins than the player-approachable kind.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganishka View Post
Whitewashing detected! Don't forget that these "civilians" as you called them, used a massive cannon to firebomb Camp Taurajo.
The wikis and the like said that they used Wildhammers, though I'm not sure where they pull that from. Were Wildhammers in Bael? I thought mostly sat in Northeron over out east riding gryphons and writing bad wedding poetry?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
No mans land or neutral territory implies that the Tauren don't get to decide what happens on said lands, regardless of whether or not they don't like explosives.
It's probably more important that the elements don't like explosives, which is what occurred at the digsite later on. I guess I should mention that the RPG had Brann negotiate a truce with the tauren that allowed the dwarves to dig with methods they approved of, but all that went out the window with pretty much everything else Brann ever did outside of his two shitty instances.

But dude, you're justifying genocide because "Inquirin' minds just got ta know!" Wow. Just wow.

Also, the Barrens treaty in that book was entirely between orcs and humans, since they had been getting in a lot of fights that had been turning Ratchet into a mess. Humans were getting mad because the goblins were providing better service to the orcs, and orcs were getting mad because of their background with humans.

Prior to the book, the agreement was a spoken word thing with no conditions or regulations:

Quote:
"We signed no treaty, you and I." Thrall started in immediately, not even returning Jaina's greeting. "We made no provisions for our alliance. We trusted that our bond had been forged in blood, and we would never betray each other."

(...)

Thrall nodded. "Thank you, Jaina. And I apologize for my accusations. But my people have endured so much. I have endured so much, and I will not see our people mistreated again."

"Nor will I," Jaina said quietly. "And perhaps" She hesitated.

"What?"

"Perhaps we should draft a formal treaty. Because you were right beforeyou and I may trust each other, but not all humans and orcs will do likewise. And much as we may wish it otherwise, we will not live forever."

Thrall nodded. "It is oftendifficult to remind my people that you are no longer our slavemasters. In many ways, they wish to continue the rebellion even though the time of orc enslavement is long past. Sometimes I get caught up in their fervor, especially since I was raised in bondage by a creature as foul as any member of the Burning Legion. Sometimes I believe the worst, and so will my people when I am gone and can no longer remind them. So perhaps you are correct."

"Let us solve this crisis first," Jaina said, giving Thrall a smile. "Then we will speak of treaties."
Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmictimelion View Post
Except he explicitly states that he tried a diplomatic solution and it failed. ( http://www.wowpedia.org/Quest:Gann%27s_Reclamation )
I sometimes wonder if this was a reference to the Brann-led deal I mentioned above, but the one other time I ever brought it up on the Story Forums I was met with "RPG DOESN'T MATTER NOW SHUT UP."

Last edited by Jiwat; 10-26-2011 at 03:13 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #1382  
Old 10-26-2011, 03:16 AM
tufy tufy is offline

Arch-Druid
tufy's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,652

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
That doesn't somehow make it a different organization though. They're all part of the same organization and nowhere has it been suggested otherwise. The people of the North having to relocate to the West doesn't somehow make it a different organization
It's not the relocation of the people that's important, but the switch in balance of power. Originally, the Alliance was centered around Terenas having influence over others - just like United States guides the politics of NATO today. When Terenas was removed from the picture, the focus effectively shifted. Compare this to NATO where focus switches from United States to, say, Germany - while the organization would remain in name and function, the new ideological "leader" would fundamentally influence NATO's politics. It's the same with the Alliance. Think about it - if Terenas followed to the west, would he ever sign a peace treaty with a free Horde? Jaina's leadership affected how Alliance acted there. Yet at the same time, the second part of the Alliance, one south of Thandol span, never followed to the west. How come they didn't? Did Jaina lead the Alliance? Did Stormwind lead it? If either of those is true, did the other one betray the treaty? The only way to solve this is if Alliance works much like NATO - it was formed through Lordaeron and with that kingdom out of the picture, they weren't diplomatically obligated to act in any specific way. If others agree to follow another member, that's fine and the Alliance effectively continues to exist, but the loss of key member affects its operations from ground up.

Quote:
and you're arbitrarily applying things to Stormwind and Theramore that didn't exist. Specifically, the idea that the people of Theramore supported Jaina's ruthless "peace at any cost" agenda when we can see via Theramore questing that's clearly not the case.
Not at all. I'm simply stating that people of northern lands followed Jaina to the west, forming Theramore in the process. Yet a few months later, Daelin arrives and takes over - how is that possible, did Jaina betray the Alliance by her action? Well, guess what, Stormwind, Ironforge and others didn't follow Daelin either - did THEY betray the Alliance? I seriously doubt Garithos had blessing from any major power, much less Stormwind, to form an offensive against the Scourge on his own. This whole period is full of such events that leave the Alliance leadership questionable - as if there was a lot of confusion as to who exactly is the leader and everyone acted in his own best interests. It wasn't until Wotlk that Stormwind started taking the lead role in the organization. In my opinion, it was specifically the Battle for Undercity that finally rallied the various members under Varian's flag.

Thus my comparisson to Rome and Byzantium - the transition wasn't clear there either and Byzantium always called itself Roman Empire for as long as it lasted - yet the difference between the two is obvious.

Quote:
Furthermore, Stormwind did feel the Third War in the form of refugees and the fact that suddenly it was the most powerful kingdom in the Alliance despite only getting back onto its feet a decade ago.
I'm talking of diplomatic and military implications. If Stormwind was part of the events in the north or if the leadership would automatically pass to them, they would act in unison with other members of the Alliance, most notably Jaina, Garithos or Daelin. They did not. That's all I'm saying.

There's one other interesting detail you might be forgetting: remember the comic? In it, there is a mention of Horde vs. Alliance peace treaty, even though Stormwind had no contact with Thrall's Horde prior to that. This suggests that Jaina indeed acted on behalf of the Alliance during Daelin events and Cycle of Hatred. Yet in the expansion after those events, Varian is clearly leading the Alliance - what is it then, who the hell is in charge? And what gave Jaina the right to act in the name of the Alliance or even just one race?

Quote:
And a good chunk of the things that you listed are fanon anyway.
And what exactly would that fanon be? My comments are simple deductions based on comics, canon books, in-game events and when required, compared to real life diplomacy to get the logical solutions. Such alliances have a clearly defined protocol. For instance, NATO members deposit agreements with United States government, which in turn informs others and sends them copies. Nothing in stated in the treaty what would happen should U.S. government be incapable of performing this deed. Looking at Lordaeron's position within the Alliance of Lordaeron and the events shortly after the fall of Lordaeron suggests that Lordaeron was in a similar position in said Alliance. When Terenas was killed and the kingdom ceased to be, clear confusion arose as to who exactly is the boss (Garithos, lands south of Thandol, Jaina and Daelin all acted in a conflicting manner).

Thus, extrapolating from real life organizations, it is logical to assume that this was simply because there was no proper line of succession. Still, an act by one of them (Garithos and Jaina most obviously with Blood Elves and Horde peace treaty) was interpreted as an act of all, even if some didn't follow it, most notably Grand Admiral Proudmore, who imo had a far greater claim to Alliance leadership than Jaina.

Come to think of it, Jaina siding with Thrall there should be an act of treason, yet Varian later obviously comes to Theramore under impression that orcs aren't to be trusted, but that there is currently a state of peace between the two superpowers. Messy, I tell you.

Quote:
Maybe she's not as sovereign as you think. Or maybe the Alliance is more than just a military Alliance.
Sorry, not buying it for a lot of reasons. Here's an example: do you have any idea what would happen to an aristocrat that would challenge his own sovereign in the middle of the battle like Jaina did in Undercity? That's at least treason, if not worse. Furthermore, implicating that Jaina is somehow subordinate to Varian would be implicating that Kul'Tiras is not a sovereign land, independant from Stormwind and that perhaps even Dalaran isn't free (though I don't really know what position she has as a former apprentice to Antonidas in modern Dalaran led by Raptor king). Would Daelin have acted against Stormwind's orders as well then? Meh, I better stop before my brain explodes :p I honestly prefer Babylon 5, where things at least try to make sense

Last edited by tufy; 10-26-2011 at 03:23 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #1383  
Old 10-26-2011, 04:12 AM
Tilgath Tilgath is offline

Eternal
Tilgath's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,616

Default

This may have been in the RPG so it's lolnotcanon, but I remember reading that Daelin sailed to Kalimdor to try and find the survivors of Lordaeron and rescue them. To me, that implies communications between Theramore and the Eastern Kingdoms hadn't resumed yet.

At the time, Jaina and her people probably thought that they were all that was left of the Alliance. I'd argue any agreements she made weren't binding to the states that remained intact in the Eastern Kingdoms and had no part in the Kalimdor events.

Last edited by Tilgath; 10-26-2011 at 04:59 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #1384  
Old 10-26-2011, 04:40 AM
Jon Targaryen Jon Targaryen is offline

Arch-Druid
Jon Targaryen's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,427
BattleTag: JulianPatel#1800

Default

The way I see it Jaina's Alliance forces were isolated form the EK Alliance once she reached Kalimdor. So she became the Alliance as far as Kalimdor was concerned.

Once proper communication and travel between Kalimdor and EK was established, her forces became re-allied with the EK Alliance and all her agreements were grandfathered in. Including bringing in the NElves and the Draenei (RotH says that it was Jaina who allied with the Draenei).

The Daelin thing is a bit more complicated because his expedition arrived before the two continents were as much in communication with each other as they are now. I imagine that anything that happened during that period is either known to very few people or covered under a blanket amnesty.
Reply With Quote
  #1385  
Old 10-26-2011, 04:58 AM
Ku'ja Ku'ja is offline

Elune
Ku'ja's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Cumbria, England !!
Posts: 8,080
BattleTag: Eregos#2913

Default

People moaning about new Troll content i am sure that we will get it because they are involved with Mists of Pandaria so that either means we go to Zandalar or the Zandalari begin to invade Pandaria as well.
__________________

Run
Reply With Quote
  #1386  
Old 10-26-2011, 05:08 AM
Tilgath Tilgath is offline

Eternal
Tilgath's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,616

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Targaryen View Post
(RotH says that it was Jaina who allied with the Draenei).
Sort of off topic, but I hate that story point. It just seems more logical to me that the Night Elves would be the first allies of the Draenei. They landed right next to Teldrassil, it's said that a Night Elven boat and crew were the first to discover them, and once the Draenei player finishes the Azuremyst Isles questline, it's off to Night Elf lands they go. If anything, Tyrande should've been the one to bring them into the Alliance.

But nope, a single line from RotH says Jaina did, so that's that.
Reply With Quote
  #1387  
Old 10-26-2011, 05:15 AM
Jon Targaryen Jon Targaryen is offline

Arch-Druid
Jon Targaryen's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,427
BattleTag: JulianPatel#1800

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tilgath View Post
Sort of off topic, but I hate that story point. It just seems more logical to me that the Night Elves would be the first allies of the Draenei. They landed right next to Teldrassil, it's said that a Night Elven boat and crew were the first to discover them, and once the Draenei player finishes the Azuremyst Isles questline, it's off to Night Elf lands they go. If anything, Tyrande should've been the one to bring them into the Alliance.

But nope, a single line from RotH says Jaina did, so that's that.
Maybe Tyrande brought them into her lower case alliance with Jaina who then brought then into the upper case Alliance? The line was "Proudmore has agreed to aid them."
Reply With Quote
  #1388  
Old 10-26-2011, 06:09 AM
Jiwat Jiwat is offline

Arch-Druid
Jiwat's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,043

Default

Though the drainei have had phases I like to call "those technology guys" and "those holy guys" (they're currently "those invisible guys"), they did have a brief run as "those magic guys" when they were introduced. It's just that people could not keep from freaking out about the Naaru aesthetic to remember that the drainei themselves were a more mystical, ancient people.

That and the night elven dislike of magic could have left the writers banging their heads against a wall trying to figure it out, and they decided to just take Jaina as the easy way out.
Reply With Quote
  #1389  
Old 10-26-2011, 06:33 AM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

Site Staff - Moderator
Aldrius's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,025

Default

I don't really think they thought about it all that much. Christie Golden wrote that, probably just as a big of a throw-away line in the novel. There was no Varian at the time, so that's probably why she chose Jaina.

Especially since the Night Elves aren't a particularly iconic Alliance race.
__________________
"The Demons did their job well. You creatures are as reckless and bloodthirsty as they ever were."
Reply With Quote
  #1390  
Old 10-26-2011, 06:49 AM
tufy tufy is offline

Arch-Druid
tufy's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,652

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tilgath View Post
This may have been in the RPG so it's lolnotcanon, but I remember reading that Daelin sailed to Kalimdor to try and find the survivors of Lordaeron and rescue them. To me, that implies communications between Theramore and the Eastern Kingdoms hadn't resumed yet.
I'm fairly sure that part was mentioned in Warcraft III already, when Jaina tells Thrall it wasn't her that attacked the Horde. I'd have to go back to the missions, though, as it's been a few years since I've played that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Targaryen View Post
The way I see it Jaina's Alliance forces were isolated form the EK Alliance once she reached Kalimdor. So she became the Alliance as far as Kalimdor was concerned.

Once proper communication and travel between Kalimdor and EK was established, her forces became re-allied with the EK Alliance and all her agreements were grandfathered in. Including bringing in the NElves and the Draenei (RotH says that it was Jaina who allied with the Draenei).
That is one possible explanation. However, do note that if this is the case, then two "Alliances" existed at once, though technically both decendant from the Alliance of Lordaeron (which reminds me - is the "Alliance of Lordaeron" still the official name?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tilgath View Post
Sort of off topic, but I hate that story point. It just seems more logical to me that the Night Elves would be the first allies of the Draenei. They landed right next to Teldrassil, it's said that a Night Elven boat and crew were the first to discover them, and once the Draenei player finishes the Azuremyst Isles questline, it's off to Night Elf lands they go. If anything, Tyrande should've been the one to bring them into the Alliance.

But nope, a single line from RotH says Jaina did, so that's that.
Agreed, given the events in game and how close Night Elves and Draenei seem to be, I'd totally call the Tyrande link. However, since the Draenei are all holy and stuff, while still practicing arcane magic (unlike Night Elves, who didn't do it at the time), humans would eventually likely turn out to be closer to their way of thinking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius View Post
Especially since the Night Elves aren't a particularly iconic Alliance race.
Lies, all lies. There would be no Goldshire without a dancing naked elf lady on mailbox.
Reply With Quote
  #1391  
Old 10-26-2011, 07:03 AM
Jon Targaryen Jon Targaryen is offline

Arch-Druid
Jon Targaryen's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,427
BattleTag: JulianPatel#1800

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tufy View Post
However, do note that if this is the case, then two "Alliances" existed at once, though technically both decendant from the Alliance of Lordaeron (which reminds me - is the "Alliance of Lordaeron" still the official name?)
I think they did actually. Many people have wondered why the Night elves would join the Alliance. Perhaps Tyrande thought she was allying with a single human/dwarf remnant settlement on some island in the swamp? Remember that when she came to Kalimdor she witnessed the continent of Lordaeron left in ruins by the Scourge and the Legion. I doubt she knew that Khaz Modan and Azeroth (c) were still going concerns.

The way I see it, from between mid TFT to the begining of Vanilla there were effectively two Alliances with all communication between the two going through Theramore. That may be part of the reason why Jaina was seen as the Leader of the Alliance both in and out of the game.

Now I don't think the developers actually thought all this, I'm just fanwanking trying to account for as much as I can of what we've been given.
Reply With Quote
  #1392  
Old 10-26-2011, 07:39 AM
Quirnheim Quirnheim is offline

Eternal
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Niagara Region, Canada
Posts: 4,850
BattleTag: kam#1475

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Targaryen View Post
I think they did actually. Many people have wondered why the Night elves would join the Alliance. Perhaps Tyrande thought she was allying with a single human/dwarf remnant settlement on some island in the swamp? Remember that when she came to Kalimdor she witnessed the continent of Lordaeron left in ruins by the Scourge and the Legion. I doubt she knew that Khaz Modan and Azeroth (c) were still going concerns.

The way I see it, from between mid TFT to the begining of Vanilla there were effectively two Alliances with all communication between the two going through Theramore. That may be part of the reason why Jaina was seen as the Leader of the Alliance both in and out of the game.

Now I don't think the developers actually thought all this, I'm just fanwanking trying to account for as much as I can of what we've been given.
I like this theory. It does make sense. Nice job.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
Fuck your dumb gamergate shit I'd rather be pegged by Sylvanas than read it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torch View Post
Just remember, the Alliance is only ever allowed to passively defend itself against the Horde, and Taurajo was Azeroth's equivalent of the Holocaust.
Reply With Quote
  #1393  
Old 10-26-2011, 07:45 AM
Lochnar Lochnar is offline

Dryad
Lochnar's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 154

Default

Quote:
The wikis and the like said that they used Wildhammers, though I'm not sure where they pull that from. Were Wildhammers in Bael? I thought mostly sat in Northeron over out east riding gryphons and writing bad wedding poetry
They were Wildhammer mercs. Whether it was Hawthorne that ordered them is a point of dispute. My personal theory is that the bombing was ordered by General Twinbraid at Ambassador Gaines's request.
Reply With Quote
  #1394  
Old 10-26-2011, 07:52 AM
Quirnheim Quirnheim is offline

Eternal
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Niagara Region, Canada
Posts: 4,850
BattleTag: kam#1475

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lochnar View Post
They were Wildhammer mercs. Whether it was Hawthorne that ordered them is a point of dispute. My personal theory is that the bombing was ordered by General Twinbraid at Ambassador Gaines's request.
This makes sense. Hawthorne was, before he got butchered(sadly), my favorite Alliance character in game - and I don't see him using fire-bombing if he can help it. My theory is basically yours, Loch, except Hawthorne attempted to appeal it and was over-ruled by Alliance High Command -why Gaines partially hates him.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
Fuck your dumb gamergate shit I'd rather be pegged by Sylvanas than read it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torch View Post
Just remember, the Alliance is only ever allowed to passively defend itself against the Horde, and Taurajo was Azeroth's equivalent of the Holocaust.
Reply With Quote
  #1395  
Old 10-26-2011, 08:24 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

World Builder
Mutterscrawl's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 32,490

Runes

Garroshs short story mentioned they tried to get Bael'modan and the others to leave by "asking them to vacate the Horde territory they had usurped"

And alot of the Cataclysm pages refer to the Barrens as Horde territory, so maybe it was given to the Horde in a later treaty? /shrug
__________________
Brought to you by Sanguine Enterprises.

My Worldbuilding:
http://bloodinkworlds.tumblr.com/
Reply With Quote
  #1396  
Old 10-26-2011, 08:25 AM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

Elune
Magistrix Verdande's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Xerrath
Posts: 11,081
BattleTag: Malice#2774

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
How the fuck is the Alliance fighting the Horde after being betrayed by the Horde on multiple occasions an example of the HORDE being betrayed?

"The Alliance is fighting back after we've betrayed, invaded, and butchered them? The nerve! The sheer nerve! Slaughter them all!"

You're an ass, and I can't wait until the Horde's inevitable fall.



Theramore never "backstabbed" the Horde. What the fuck were they supposed to do after Garrosh's rape of Ashenvale and the Forsaken's genocidal campaign in Lordaeron?

The Horde is full of complete monsters, and I'm going to savour killing each and every one of them.

And Garrosh can and would butcher civilians. He did it in Gilneas. He did it in Ashenvale, and now he's going to do it in Theramore. I can't wait until that warmongering fucktard dies at Varian's hands.
For the love of gods, look at what you're writing.

You need to calm the fuck down.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry Pratchett
Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.
Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels.
Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.
Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
Elves are terrific. They beget terror.

The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.

No one ever said elves are nice.
Elves are bad.
Reply With Quote
  #1397  
Old 10-26-2011, 08:27 AM
Vexander Vexander is offline

Eternal
Vexander's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,491

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
Garroshs short story mentioned they tried to get Bael'modan and the others to leave by "asking them to vacate the Horde territory they had usurped"

And alot of the Cataclysm pages refer to the Barrens as Horde territory, so maybe it was given to the Horde in a later treaty? /shrug
I doubt it. Garrosh's mindset makes it apparent that he believes the entirety of Azeroth is Horde territory.
Reply With Quote
  #1398  
Old 10-26-2011, 08:51 AM
ScytheRexx ScytheRexx is offline

Loremaster
ScytheRexx's Avatar
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,490

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexander View Post
I doubt it. Garrosh's mindset makes it apparent that he believes the entirety of Azeroth is Horde territory.
It was made clear to me over the game and in the books that The Barrens was considered mostly Horde territory. It was supposed to be free for travel along the Gold Road, but not for settling by the Alliance.

They sort of hinted this in novels like Cycle of Hatred, since the humans were angry that they couldn't utilize any farmland and instead had to trade with the Horde through selling fish and other sea-based goods. If you go to the Barrens, the Horde have a few farms there, showing it was used for farming, likely more then places like Durotar. There was also the Shady Rest Inn, which was built with the intention that it would be on the borders of Horde and Alliance territory and be a neutral ground for both sides to rest and trade. The only settlement in the region owned by the Alliance (At the time anyways) was Bael'Modan, and we all know that fortress was built through force, not negotiation.

There were other smaller hints, like for instance the fact that some of the only Alliance NPCs in the Barrens other then Bael'Modan were known as "Alliance Outriders". Usually the term Outrider means someone riding out from their own territories, usually into enemy territories, for recon and information.

Even as far as game mechanics go, the region was considered Horde territory.

Garrosh does believe the whole world belongs, in the end, to the Horde. However, I do believe Garrosh understands the difference between defending land you dominate already, and invading lands you don't. The Barrens as far as he knows is Horde territory, there was never an Alliance presence there to claim otherwise until the Alliance invaded.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #1399  
Old 10-26-2011, 08:58 AM
Vexander Vexander is offline

Eternal
Vexander's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,491

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScytheRexx View Post
It was made clear to me over the game and in the books that The Barrens was considered mostly Horde territory. It was supposed to be free for travel along the Gold Road, but not for settling by the Alliance.

They sort of hinted this in novels like Cycle of Hatred, since the humans were angry that they couldn't utilize any farmland and instead had to trade with the Horde through selling fish and other sea-based goods. If you go to the Barrens, the Horde have a few farms there, showing it was used for farming, likely more then places like Durotar. There was also the Shady Rest Inn, which was built with the intention that it would be on the borders of Horde and Alliance territory and be a neutral ground for both sides to rest and trade. The only settlement in the region owned by the Alliance (At the time anyways) was Bael'Modan, and we all know that fortress was built through force, not negotiation.

There were other smaller hints, like for instance the fact that some of the only Alliance NPCs in the Barrens other then Bael'Modan were known as "Alliance Outriders". Usually the term Outrider means someone riding out from their own territories, usually into enemy territories, for recon and information.

Even as far as game mechanics go, the region was considered Horde territory.

Garrosh does believe the whole world belongs, in the end, to the Horde. However, I do believe Garrosh understands the difference between defending land you dominate already, and invading lands you don't. The Barrens as far as he knows is Horde territory, there was never an Alliance presence there to claim otherwise until the Alliance invaded.
This much I can certainly agree with, and makes a lot of sense =)
Reply With Quote
  #1400  
Old 10-26-2011, 09:16 AM
Bolvar Bolvar is offline

(╯�□�)╯︵ ┻━┻
Get Off My Lawn!
Bolvar's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Get off my lawn!
Posts: 19,908

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmictimelion View Post
People hate a lot of the things I say, join the club.

I'm not just the president, I'm also a member.
__________________
You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:31 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.