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  #1801  
Old 10-31-2011, 02:32 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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Thrall, Saurfang, and a few of the veterans are the anomaly among the orcs. Most orcs are completely unrepentant and indignant about the First and Second Wars, and one successful/one attempted acts of genocide. They even hate the Alliance from imprisoning them. You know, after they just attempted to commit genocide against humans.
Granted, that one techinically wasnt their war. But yeah, its complicated, a very, very grey zone. I still think the orcs are dumb.
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  #1802  
Old 10-31-2011, 02:33 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Tauren Paly View Post
But he isn't right though, thats the point, he only uses half the facts and blags the rest based on his own bias opinion.

The funny thing is I've not seen anything from his posts that indicates a more indepth knowledge of the orcs in the grand scheme of things, and only seems to base it more on segments of personal intrest rather then an unbias perspective.

/flicks popcorn in the air and chews on it.
Sounds more descriptive of you than him by a long shot.
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  #1803  
Old 10-31-2011, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Tauren Paly View Post
oh my, I actully form an opinion of my own based on my personal likes and dislikes about the characters and stories.

You take the spoon-fed Thrall stuff and then attack anyone who prefers Garrosh over him
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  #1804  
Old 10-31-2011, 02:37 PM
Tauren Paly Tauren Paly is offline

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Originally Posted by Crazyterran View Post
...you called the Orcs an Honorable and Just race. Really, Just? The orcs don't really have a sense of justice. The orc on the street wants a war with the "Dog Alliance", which you would have gotten if you read the Shattering.

With the exception of Thrall, a majority of the Orcs still watch and love the slave gladiatorial combat.

And, when Cairne + Garrosh was fighting, the majority of the crowd was on Garrosh's side; even Tauren where filing in to cheer for Garrosh. Only a few old veterans like Saurfang, and the wiser of the Tauren where there for Cairne.

Garrosh is what the NPCs wanted. A leader that is there for war. To stick it to the Alliance, who's been 'oppressing' them all these years.

Thrall, Saurfang, and a few of the veterans are the anomaly among the orcs. Most orcs are completely unrepentant and indignant about the First and Second Wars, and one successful/one attempted acts of genocide. They even hate the Alliance from imprisoning them. You know, after they just attempted to commit genocide against humans.

I rofl everytime you call the Orcs a 'just' race. And the fact that your bias has you (even jokingly) threaten people who like Garrosh and his direction for the Horde. And you are really calling Lochnar biased in comparison?

/facepalm
No, honestly, just no. I have called them a noble savage race, that is what they are, a race held to past traditions and wild nature, but they held a noble hold to things like there spirituality, respect to the ancestors, and most of all, back on draenor, a respect to the land and what it gave them.

Its been said already, the orcs before the legion corrupted them were more like the tauren then anything, they held the same way of living, they had different clans, they worshiped the spirits and elements, and well sometimes fighting occured with other clans, that didn't make them a deeply seeded warlike race, not until the legion brought it out of them.

This is what Thrall tried to recaptured, based on what older vetrans of the horde told him, that Drek'thar told him. The greatest problem with Garrosh is he doesn't stand for what the orcs were once like, people just assume he does because he's a brown skinned orc. What Garrosh is doing it trying to be a carbon copy of his father, and in doing so, carrying on the same mistakes his father commited.

It is not an anomaly to have orcs that want to try and find a place in the world where they can build a home, raise kids and actully live. The orcish spirit might be something that can fight, but a real orc is able to temper himself.

You like orcs as violent and savage brutes with no morality and who just want to fight fight fight, fine, thats what you like in the horde, and I will not lie and say it doesn't exist. But it is not what the orcs are as a whole, the orcs are more complex then that, as we've seen so many times with other characters who want to seek peaceful resolves, who would fight to secure a lasting peace, rather then 'fighting for fightings sake'.

Your opinion of what the orcs are like is your own, but it is not the only one.

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You take the spoon-fed Thrall stuff and then attack anyone who prefers Garrosh over him
I look at all evidense and use that to debate with.
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  #1805  
Old 10-31-2011, 02:39 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
Sounds more descriptive of you than him by a long shot.
This. The not-war-dumb orcs are the minority. Thrall is one of the few who is rational enough. In fact I think he and Varian should swap places as he ironically has a more "human" mindset that what I have seen in Varian

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Its been said already, the orcs before the legion corrupted them were more like the tauren then anything, they held the same way of living, they had different clans, they worshiped the spirits and elements, and well sometimes fighting occured with other clans, that didn't make them a deeply seeded warlike race, not until the legion brought it out of them.
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  #1806  
Old 10-31-2011, 02:40 PM
Exxile87 Exxile87 is offline

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Originally Posted by Tauren Paly View Post
and I'm fairless certain you don't know jack about me, because if you actully read back over a lot of my posts you'd see I do have a lot of knowledge of the lore, I do take that time to read, and... oh my, I actully form an opinion of my own based on my personal likes and dislikes about the characters and stories.
Why did I take you off ignore now?

also I find it funny I'm the only one being accused of being bias when it just seeps from these forums.
We're biased against idiots, you're biased towards the way you want things to be in a video game. There's a difference.
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  #1807  
Old 10-31-2011, 02:43 PM
Tauren Paly Tauren Paly is offline

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Originally Posted by GenyaArikado View Post
This. The not-war-dumb orcs are the minority. Thrall is one of the few who is rational enough. In fact I think he and Varian should swap places as he ironically has a more "human" mindset that what I have seen in Varian



Understatament of the century
do you have proof of there being mass fighting amoung the orcs before the legion came? I don't recall anything said other then hinting of disputes and the occational conflict, but its was no different then the bloodhoofs and grimtotems.

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We're biased against idiots, you're biased towards the way you want things to be in a video game. There's a difference.
like calling people idiots whos views differ from your own don't you. funny, cause I don't do that myself, maybe I'm doing it wrong.
Anyway, I fancy getting steamed about this anymore.
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  #1808  
Old 10-31-2011, 02:48 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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Originally Posted by Tauren Paly View Post
do you have proof of there being mass fighting amoung the orcs before the legion came? I don't recall anything said other then hinting of disputes and the occational conflict, but its was no different then the bloodhoofs and grimtotems.
And where is the proof that besides those occasional disputes they were the pacifist, noble and spiritual people that you claim. Because people have brought you proof of what I said

Tauren Paly, you are becoming Fojar Lite: Orc Edition.
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  #1809  
Old 10-31-2011, 02:49 PM
Crazyterran Crazyterran is offline

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Originally Posted by Tauren Paly View Post
No, honestly, just no. I have called them a noble savage race, that is what they are, a race held to past traditions and wild nature, but they held a noble hold to things like there spirituality, respect to the ancestors, and most of all, back on draenor, a respect to the land and what it gave them.

Its been said already, the orcs before the legion corrupted them were more like the tauren then anything, they held the same way of living, they had different clans, they worshiped the spirits and elements, and well sometimes fighting occured with other clans, that didn't make them a deeply seeded warlike race, not until the legion brought it out of them.

This is what Thrall tried to recaptured, based on what older vetrans of the horde told him, that Drek'thar told him. The greatest problem with Garrosh is he doesn't stand for what the orcs were once like, people just assume he does because he's a brown skinned orc. What Garrosh is doing it trying to be a carbon copy of his father, and in doing so, carrying on the same mistakes his father commited.

It is not an anomaly to have orcs that want to try and find a place in the world where they can build a home, raise kids and actully live. The orcish spirit might be something that can fight, but a real orc is able to temper himself.

You like orcs as violent and savage brutes with no morality and who just want to fight fight fight, fine, thats what you like in the horde, and I will not lie and say it doesn't exist. But it is not what the orcs are as a whole, the orcs are more complex then that, as we've seen so many times with other characters who want to seek peaceful resolves, who would fight to secure a lasting peace, rather then 'fighting for fightings sake'.

Your opinion of what the orcs are like is your own, but it is not the only one.



I look at all evidense and use that to debate with.
The Frostwolves are another anomaly within the Horde. They didn't drink the blood.

Anomalies are the things that are not the norm within a society. The orcs have been changed forever by their time as demonic infused murderers, and now crave war more than peace. They might still talk to the elements, but they sure as hell don't want peace.

And you did call them a just race. on the previous page. Justice. Orcs? lol. The Orcs have been allowing the goblins to pollute the earth, stripping a forest bare of it's trees, with no regard to sustainability. And you talk about how they care about what the earth gives them?

Thrall tried and failed to bring the Orcs back to their roots. They wanted none of it. They wanted to cleave Alliance skulls and drink wine out of them.

Sure they want to have a home. They want to carve a place out in the world. That's what Garrosh is doing, at the expense of everyone around him. Thrall was keeping the Horde in Durotar, growing crops, and having the populace mad at him that they lived in Durotar.

Believe it or not, the ORCS WANTED GARROSH. They did not want Thrall any longer.

bah, why am I bothering.
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  #1810  
Old 10-31-2011, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Tauren Paly View Post
do you have proof of there being mass fighting amoung the orcs before the legion came? I don't recall anything said other then hinting of disputes and the occational conflict, but its was no different then the bloodhoofs and grimtotems.

....

*facepalm*
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  #1811  
Old 10-31-2011, 02:52 PM
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....

*facepalm*
This.
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  #1812  
Old 10-31-2011, 02:59 PM
Euphemialibritannia Euphemialibritannia is offline

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The tribe has spoken anyone?
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  #1813  
Old 10-31-2011, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Tauren Paly View Post
do you have proof of there being mass fighting amoung the orcs before the legion came? I don't recall anything said other then hinting of disputes and the occational conflict, but its was no different then the bloodhoofs and grimtotems.
http://www.wowpedia.org/Blood_River_War
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  #1814  
Old 10-31-2011, 03:12 PM
Tauren Paly Tauren Paly is offline

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The Frostwolves are another anomaly within the Horde. They didn't drink the blood.

Anomalies are the things that are not the norm within a society. The orcs have been changed forever by their time as demonic infused murderers, and now crave war more than peace. They might still talk to the elements, but they sure as hell don't want peace.
Thats where your wrong again, there are many orcs that want peace.
you know given what is known about the orcs from there past and how they were as a race, I can use your example and say the orcs that have become the warlike, marauding savages are infact the anomalies, since that isn't what the orcs were like beforehand, not to that extent they became. And since orcs like the frostwolves kept there traditions and didn't partake in the blood drinking, they are infact the norm, well the others became the corrupted anomalies.

Quote:
And you did call them a just race. on the previous page. Justice. Orcs? lol. The Orcs have been allowing the goblins to pollute the earth, stripping a forest bare of it's trees, with no regard to sustainability. And you talk about how they care about what the earth gives them?
They did care about those things when before they were corrupted. nagrand was proof enough that the orcs back then did infact follow a code of giving respect to the elements, spirits and nature.

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Originally hailing from the harsh, alien world of Draenor, the orcs were once a noble shamanistic people cultivating a mighty tribal society that was centered around survival, regulating themselves through ritualized combat and personal honor
Quote:
Thrall tried and failed to bring the Orcs back to their roots. They wanted none of it. They wanted to cleave Alliance skulls and drink wine out of them.
So you just admitted the orcs roots were infact something as I just discribed, thank you. Thrall also didn't fail, there were many orcs who still wanted to fight and give into there bloodlust, but many others longed for what there culture use to be like.

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Sure they want to have a home. They want to carve a place out in the world. That's what Garrosh is doing, at the expense of everyone around him. Thrall was keeping the Horde in Durotar, growing crops, and having the populace mad at him that they lived in Durotar.
Wrong again, the orcs already carved a place out for themselves with blood sweat and tears when they made durotar there homeland, that wasn't Garrosh. What Garrosh is trying to do now is extend his reach into lands not the orcs own. Also, poluted water supplies makes it hard to grow any crops.

Quote:
Believe it or not, the ORCS WANTED GARROSH. They did not want Thrall any longer.
No, a collection of orcs wanted garrosh, but not all of that, and the rest of the horde didn't want to follow a warmonger.
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bah, why am I bothering.
Because you believe everything your saying is right and everything I'm saying is wrong.

was there anything else to that event, why it happened, how long it lasted, why it was started? pretty much sounds like what the grimtotem and bloodhoofs would do to each other, but nothing else to discribe it.
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  #1815  
Old 10-31-2011, 03:16 PM
Euphemialibritannia Euphemialibritannia is offline

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No, it's you believing you are right and he's wrong.

As much as I love the horde, what everyone but you has been saying is correct. I mean it's so clear in The Shattering how much people wanted Garrosh, they basically smack you in the head with it.
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  #1816  
Old 10-31-2011, 03:17 PM
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This shit is fun as all hell.
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  #1817  
Old 10-31-2011, 03:21 PM
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TP: Have you clarified yet as to what sort of bias you see in this forum?
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  #1818  
Old 10-31-2011, 03:23 PM
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I think he should just repost what he believes in summary form
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  #1819  
Old 10-31-2011, 03:28 PM
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I think he should just repost what he believes in summary form
I'll save him the effort: Garrosh sucks, and Thrall is perfect.
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  #1820  
Old 10-31-2011, 03:30 PM
Crazyterran Crazyterran is offline

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Originally Posted by Tauren Paly View Post
Thats where your wrong again, there are many orcs that want peace.
you know given what is known about the orcs from there past and how they were as a race, I can use your example and say the orcs that have become the warlike, marauding savages are infact the anomalies, since that isn't what the orcs were like beforehand, not to that extent they became. And since orcs like the frostwolves kept there traditions and didn't partake in the blood drinking, they are infact the norm, well the others became the corrupted anomalies.
If 90% of your race is blood thirsty warmongers, and 10% isn't, the 10% that isn't is the anomaly. The Frostwolves aren't exactly peaceful either, as their surprise attack against the Stormpike Archaeologists suggested back during Vanilla.

Seriously, Orc culture has changed.

Quote:
They did care about those things when before they were corrupted. nagrand was proof enough that the orcs back then did infact follow a code of giving respect to the elements, spirits and nature.
I never said they didn't. They used to revere their ancestors, and looked to them for guidance. In Nagrand, it shows the Maghar are getting it back.


Quote:
So you just admitted the orcs roots were infact something as I just discribed, thank you. Thrall also didn't fail, there were many orcs who still wanted to fight and give into there bloodlust, but many others longed for what there culture use to be like.
All the spelling fails. Generally, when you try to look smart, you should spell correctly.

Also, The *majority* of the Orcs wanted to continue to fight. As was evidenced in the Shattering. The minority of the Orcs, like Saurfang, wanted the fighting to stop. The Orcs like Saurfang, where made up of Second War veterans, who saw first hand the worst of the Orcs. They are dwindling in number, and even some of the veterans are more of Garrosh's style of thinking. And even then, most of the Maghar that we see during Horde questing, are like Garrosh, rather than being like Greatmother Geyah.

Quote:
Wrong again, the orcs already carved a place out for themselves with blood sweat and tears when they made durotar there homeland, that wasn't Garrosh. What Garrosh is trying to do now is extend his reach into lands not the orcs own. Also, poluted water supplies makes it hard to grow any crops.
The Orcs carved a miserable piece of the World out for themselves. Krenna, in the Garrosh short story, seems to be more along the lines of Orcish thinking then Gorgonna had. Why where they carving out a miserable existence in Durotar, when they could have (tried) to take Ashenvale? To live in a bountiful land rather than the rock that is Durotar?

Garrosh is expanding the Horde, and trying to build another Orgrimmar in Ashenvale. Connecting the dots is hard.

And yes, crops are failing because of what Garrosh - and the Orcs allow. What they want. They rather have siege machines and gunpowder than corn and wheat.

Quote:
No, a collection of orcs wanted garrosh, but not all of that, and the rest of the horde didn't want to follow a warmonger.
The Majority of Orcs wanted Garrosh. What the rest of the Horde wants outside of the Orcs doesn't matter a damn in the Horde, if you haven't noticed. If they don't like it, they can leave. And they won't be leaving in the case of the ones on the Eastern Kingdom, or they'll be destroyed by the Alliance. And the ones on Kalimdor, are either honor bound or in steep trouble if they leave.

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Because you believe everything your saying is right and everything I'm saying is wrong.
Your biased opinions are making everyone else turn against you on this forum. It's not like I'm just blasting on you by myself. Everyone else has told you to cool it, or to quit being so damned biased, at the least.
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  #1821  
Old 10-31-2011, 03:38 PM
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If 90% of your race is blood thirsty warmongers, and 10% isn't, the 10% that isn't is the anomaly. The Frostwolves aren't exactly peaceful either, as their surprise attack against the Stormpike Archaeologists suggested back during Vanilla.

Seriously, Orc culture has changed.
While Tauren Paly may swing one way in regards to orc bloodthirst, you are probably swinging a little too much the other way. You may just be presenting a hypothetical, but the orcs are probably not 90 percent filled with blood-thirsty warmongers.

Quote:
Also, The *majority* of the Orcs wanted to continue to fight. As was evidenced in the Shattering. The minority of the Orcs, like Saurfang, wanted the fighting to stop. The Orcs like Saurfang, where made up of Second War veterans, who saw first hand the worst of the Orcs. They are dwindling in number, and even some of the veterans are more of Garrosh's style of thinking. And even then, most of the Maghar that we see during Horde questing, are like Garrosh, rather than being like Greatmother Geyah.

<snip>

The Majority of Orcs wanted Garrosh. What the rest of the Horde wants outside of the Orcs doesn't matter a damn in the Horde, if you haven't noticed. If they don't like it, they can leave. And they won't be leaving in the case of the ones on the Eastern Kingdom, or they'll be destroyed by the Alliance. And the ones on Kalimdor, are either honor bound or in steep trouble if they leave.
[/quote]See, for example here, it only takes over 50 percent to be the majority. But a 51 percent majority still leaves a sizable minority of 49 percent.
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  #1822  
Old 10-31-2011, 03:46 PM
Vil'rexin Vil'rexin is offline

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Wow...this thread is a perfect example of why you must control the bias inside of you. If left unchecked, it will aid in your own destruction.
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Old 10-31-2011, 03:49 PM
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Wow...this thread is a perfect example of why you must control the bias inside of you. If left unchecked, it will aid in your own destruction.

True story.
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  #1824  
Old 10-31-2011, 03:53 PM
Tauren Paly Tauren Paly is offline

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If 90% of your race is blood thirsty warmongers, and 10% isn't, the 10% that isn't is the anomaly. The Frostwolves aren't exactly peaceful either, as their surprise attack against the Stormpike Archaeologists suggested back during Vanilla.

Seriously, Orc culture has changed.
where you basing these statistics from? Is there a poll the orcs took? I already gave you an example. One percentage of the orcs want to follow a path that actully gives them peace, even if they have to fight for it. another percent want to just fight for fightings sake, even if they were to win, they would want to just keep fighting, this being the warsong mentality AND its current warchief. As a result of that, the remaining percent are just grunts and clanless orcs who follow whatever the warchief tells them, so if one says go grow crops, they would, if one says go kill that humans, they would.


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I never said they didn't. They used to revere their ancestors, and looked to them for guidance. In Nagrand, it shows the Maghar are getting it back.
yet its something the orcs in general now don't follow, because it was something once held in the orcish culture, but something they were forced out of. Theres a reason why you see older orcs and those orcs that want to old ways to return giving respect to the ancestors, well other orcs that just want violence don't show it.

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All the spelling fails. Generally, when you try to look smart, you should spell correctly.
Well done, a have dyslexia.
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Also, The *majority* of the Orcs wanted to continue to fight. As was evidenced in the Shattering. The minority of the Orcs, like Saurfang, wanted the fighting to stop. The Orcs like Saurfang, where made up of Second War veterans, who saw first hand the worst of the Orcs. They are dwindling in number, and even some of the veterans are more of Garrosh's style of thinking. And even then, most of the Maghar that we see during Horde questing, are like Garrosh, rather than being like Greatmother Geyah.
I dare say they are warsong themselves, it seems clear to be a concept of clan menality rather then one whole culture, and if there is more warsongs acting out of it of course its going to appear that way.


Quote:
The Orcs carved a miserable piece of the World out for themselves. Krenna, in the Garrosh short story, seems to be more along the lines of Orcish thinking then Gorgonna had. Why where they carving out a miserable existence in Durotar, when they could have (tried) to take Ashenvale? To live in a bountiful land rather than the rock that is Durotar?
So misrable they defend it with there lives? And hey, krenna died because of her narrow idiocy, well gorgonna became the boss, who herself had a more broader way of seeing things.
So much griefing about durotar and yet the orcs defend it as there home now, so why are you trying to argue against it?
Garrosh is expanding the Horde, and trying to build another Orgrimmar in Ashenvale. Connecting the dots is hard.

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And yes, crops are failing because of what Garrosh - and the Orcs allow. What they want. They rather have siege machines and gunpowder than corn and wheat.
Hmm, seems funny that the complant before was the orcs were having problems with food under Thrall, which by the way, happened because of the war in northrend and supplies needed for it, and yet when Garrosh causes it that they loose food AND water to his war, thats peachy. ok..


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The Majority of Orcs wanted Garrosh. What the rest of the Horde wants outside of the Orcs doesn't matter a damn in the Horde, if you haven't noticed. If they don't like it, they can leave. And they won't be leaving in the case of the ones on the Eastern Kingdom, or they'll be destroyed by the Alliance. And the ones on Kalimdor, are either honor bound or in steep trouble if they leave.
They are actully honor bound to stay because other packs they made under Thrall, the tauren and trolls, not because they follow Garrosh's example. Sylvanas isn't so, but she requires the horde for whatever her schemes are. The other races are just tied because they don't have enough power to support themselves. And there is a solid percentage of orcs who are opposed to Garrosh's methods.
Look, metzen already said in MoP the horde would fracture even more then it already has as a faction well the alliance grows more stronger, can't ignore those fact.

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Your biased opinions are making everyone else turn against you on this forum. It's not like I'm just blasting on you by myself. Everyone else has told you to cool it, or to quit being so damned biased, at the least.
Again, I'm not the only one who is, yet I'm just up front about it. I would actully respect others opinions too, yet it turns into a flamefest when trying to add your own take on things.
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Old 10-31-2011, 03:55 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Kasarax View Post
Wow...this thread is a perfect example of why you must control the bias inside of you. If left unchecked, it will aid in your own destruction.
Azuregos said it best.


The thing about Evil and Destruction is that they tend to evilly destruct one another.
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