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View Poll Results: Should the Orc vs Human dynamic continue?
Yes! It's the foundation of the whole franchise! 7 12.96%
No! It's the same old thing that should have ended long ago! 39 72.22%
Meh. I have no strong feelings one way or the other. 8 14.81%
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  #51  
Old 07-07-2013, 02:42 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Wasn't Daelin the only remaining high commander of the Alliance? Lothar was dead and some other commanders went MIA, so I think it's only logical to believe that Daelin was the military commander of the Alliance.

It doesn't really matter if the other Alliance nations supported his genocidal campaign because the flames were already there. When a military commander of an organization declares war on another state, then the two organizations are at war.
They had no SAC. Daelin had no power to force the other states into a war he started, and despite SW not being mentioned in WCIII, we know that SW existed even back then. He's simply one head head of state amongst equals. You can also not simply say that they were at war because of his decision, when the game and the books tell us otherwise.
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  #52  
Old 07-07-2013, 02:43 AM
Pixy Pixy is offline

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There she rules over the tattered remnants of the Alliance and hopes to reunite the distant human kingdoms once more.
Sure, she was the leader of the Alliance remnants in Kalimdor, but her father outranked her for being both the Grand Admiral of the Alliance (implying he's the military leader of the Alliance) and the King of one of its component kingdoms.

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They had no SAC. Daelin had no power to force the other states into a war he started, and despite SW not being mentioned in WCIII, we know that SW existed even back then. He's simply one head head of state amongst equals. You can also not simply say that they were at war because of his decision, when the game and the books tell us otherwise.
I wasn't necessarily saying he was SAC. I said he was the only high military leader of the Alliance remaining hence his actions represent the actions of the Alliance.

If Daelin attacked Horde-controlled land, it would be clasified as an Alliance aggression because its military leader attacked it.

Last edited by Pixy; 07-07-2013 at 02:46 AM..
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  #53  
Old 07-07-2013, 02:47 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Sure, she was the leader of the Alliance remnants in Kalimdor, but her father outranked her for being both the Grand Admiral of the Alliance (implying he's the military leader of the Alliance) and the King of one of its component kingdoms.
Yes he outranked her and he was the Alliance's navy's leader, but he was not the leader of the Alliance nor of it's entire army. Declaring war was something he could only do under Kul Tiras' name and not for the whole Alliance. Besides, once he died the matter was settled.

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If Daelin attacked Horde-controlled land, it would be clasified as an Alliance aggression because its military leader attacked it.
Of course, it was considered Alliance aggression by Thrall. Still, he considered the matter settled once Daelin was dead. Anyways, it being considered an Alliance aggression is not the same as it being an attack sanctioned by the whole Alliance. Daelin basically went rogue.

Last edited by Nazja; 07-07-2013 at 02:50 AM..
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  #54  
Old 07-07-2013, 02:49 AM
Pixy Pixy is offline

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Yes he outranked her and he was the Alliance's navy's leader, but he was not the leader of the Alliance nor of it's entire army. Declaring war was something he could only do under Kul Tiras' name and not for the whole Alliance. Besides, once he died the matter was settled.
His actions were on behalf of the Alliance because he was its military leader. He was the only high ranking commander and hero of the Second War. So basically the Alliance declared war on the Horde. Daelin's death may have doused the flames to an extent, but it still means the Alliance attacked the Horde, no matter how you look at it.

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Of course, it was considered Alliance aggression by Thrall. Still, he considered the matter settled once Daelin was dead. Anyways, it being considered an Alliance aggression is not the same as it being an attack sanctioned by the whole Alliance. Daelin basically went rouge.
He didn't go rogue because he was the military leader of the Alliance and had the right to declare war on other nations. He was using his authority. Not to mention the other kingdoms were either rebuilding, were under Scourge and Burning Legion control, or were actively fighting them to secure their lands and securing your land will always be more important than attacking a foreign nation.
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  #55  
Old 07-07-2013, 02:53 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Originally Posted by Pixy View Post
Wasn't Daelin the only remaining high commander of the Alliance? Lothar was dead and some other commanders went MIA, so I think it's only logical to believe that Daelin was the military commander of the Alliance.

It doesn't really matter if the other Alliance nations supported his genocidal campaign because the flames were already there. When a military commander of an organization declares war on another state, then the two organizations are at war.
We don't know what the exact hierarchy was; Terenas became de facto leader of the Alliance in the wake of Lothar's death, but the nature of the other rulers' positions was tricky, since one of the foremost conditions of the Alliance's founding was that none of them were supposed to hold authority over the joint Alliance armies for reasons of maintaining their respective sovereignty (reasons that informed Lothar's appointment as Supreme Commander in the first place).

Plus Stormwind was, based on BtDP, farther along the way to recovery than we'd originally been led to believe, so Kul Tiras was hardly the only Alliance nation with the stability to represent its interests.

Besides, CoH marked the end of the armed conflict instigated by Daelin with Thrall and Jaina both withdrawing their armies and very publicly exposing the ones who were responsible for inciting further hostility as traitors.

But then, "Blue vs. Red must prevail", so all that got ignored just 'cuz. Orcs gotta hate humans, humans gotta hate orcs, and to hell with any truly meaningful character development for either race.

Last edited by ARM3481; 07-07-2013 at 02:55 AM..
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  #56  
Old 07-07-2013, 02:54 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Originally Posted by Pixy View Post
His actions were on behalf of the Alliance because he was its military leader. He was the only high ranking commander and hero of the Second War. So basically the Alliance declared war on the Horde. Daelin's death may have doused the flames to an extent, but it still means the Alliance attacked the Horde, no matter how you look at it.
He was not a High King. The SAC had no authority to declare war on other nations on the behalf of the whole Alliance - else no king would agree to give Lothar the position. The point of SAC (and GAA) is to command united forces of all nations without getting political. It isn't supposed to subvert the sovereignty of other nations (and deciding their foreign policy for them is exactly this).

Neither Daelin, nor Garithos could declare war for the whole Alliance.
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  #57  
Old 07-07-2013, 02:54 AM
Pixy Pixy is offline

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Still, he was the Grand Admiral of the Alliance, and that makes him the military leader of the Alliance.

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He was not a High King. The SAC had no authority to declare war on other nations on the behalf of the whole Alliance - else no king would agree to give Lothar the position. The point of SAC (and GAA) is to command united forces of all nations without getting political. It isn't supposed to subvert the sovereignty of other nations (and deciding their foreign policy for them is exactly this).
I didn't call him SAC. He was a high ranking general in the Alliance army, hence his action was accounted as an Alliance aggression by the Horde, not only a Kul Tiras one.
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  #58  
Old 07-07-2013, 02:55 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Still, he was the Grand Admiral of the Alliance, and that makes him the military leader of the Alliance.
But not the political leader.

Plus, Garithos may have been the contester for this position, as Daelin was already the GAA, not the commander of land forces.

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I didn't call him SAC. He was a high ranking general in the Alliance army, hence his action was accounted as an Alliance aggression by the Horde, not only a Kul Tiras one.
There was no "High Kingdom of the Alliance" at that time. There was an alliance of nations (or rather, remnants of said Alliance) that waged wars as they pleased, and not always agreed (the Alterac crisis)
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  #59  
Old 07-07-2013, 02:56 AM
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Still, he was the Grand Admiral of the Alliance, and that makes him the military leader of the Alliance.
No, that makes him military leader of the Alliance's boats.

If Varian takes an arrow in the eye, Admiral Rogers isn't in charge of the army. No matter how much some people might wish it were so. Nor would Grand Admiral Jes-Tereth take over.
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  #60  
Old 07-07-2013, 02:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard View Post
But not the political leader.

Plus, Garithos may have been the contester for this position, as Daelin was already the GAA, not the commander of land forces.
But that makes him a high ranking general, probably on part with Garithos if not more than that (since we don't know the exact title Garithos held).

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No, that makes him military leader of the Alliance's boats.
Again, he held the highest rank in the Alliance navy, which is a component of the army. Doesn't matter if he didn't control the Alliance's land forces because the war started with a naval invasion of the Echo Isles and Durotar's shores.
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  #61  
Old 07-07-2013, 02:58 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Originally Posted by Pixy View Post
But that makes him a high ranking general, probably on part with Garithos if not more than that (since we don't know the exact title Garithos held).
Nah-ah-ah!

Daelins was a high ranked admiral.

Garithos was a high ranked general, no, scratch that, Grand Marshal.
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  #62  
Old 07-07-2013, 02:59 AM
Pixy Pixy is offline

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Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard View Post
Nah-ah-ah!

Daelins was a high ranked admiral.

Garithos was a high ranked general, no, scratch that, Grand Marshal.
Grand Marshal commands the land forces and Grand Admiral commands the navy, both being parts of the army so I'm guessing they were on par.

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If Varian takes an arrow in the eye, Admiral Rogers isn't in charge of the army. No matter how much some people might wish it were so. Nor would Grand Admiral Jes-Tereth take over.
Rogers isn't the queen of an Alliance kingdom last time I checked, now is she an important hero of the Second War. Daelin held both titles.

If something would happen to Varian I believe the Alliance would vote for a new SAC.

Last edited by Pixy; 07-07-2013 at 03:06 AM..
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  #63  
Old 07-07-2013, 03:06 AM
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Grand Marshal commands the land forces and Grand Admiral commands the navy, both being parts of the army so I'm guessing they were on par.
"Navy" is ships.

"Army" is land forces.

United, they are the military.

After the rulers of Alliance agreed to wage war against Orgrim's Horde, Daelin commanded all of the allied ships as the Grand Admiral of the Alliance (he got that post by the nature of having more ships than any other ruler), while Lothar commanded all of the allied armies as the Supreme Alliance Commader (he got that post by the nature of not actually being a king himself, thus saving all the rulers from dishonor had another king commanded their armies).
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  #64  
Old 07-07-2013, 03:08 AM
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Again, that doesn't change the fact that the war was Alliance vs Horde.

Hell, look at Ashenvale for that matter. The war is between the orcs and the night elves but is also called a war between the Alliance and the Horde. The invasion of Durotar was basically the same moreso since Daelin was also commanding a quite vital part of the Alliance forces.
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  #65  
Old 07-07-2013, 03:14 AM
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Right, I agree, but thinking like that is not very good for "Evil Garrosh" narrative, in which we are supposed to hate Garrosh for his deeds, including Theramore.

Given that now he's blamed for Cairne's assassination of all things, Theramore must be pretty high on the list of grudges.
You know... I think I understand why Baine is blaming Garrosh for what happened to Cairne now, and it annoys me that it isn't at least alluded to in game. Simply put, look at how Garrosh has acted lately. His tactics in Theramore, his attempted assassination of Vol'jin, the incident with the Divine Bell and the Dark Heart... I'd be double thinking everything the big, ugly lout has been saying to me, too.

Baine is wrong in this specific case, but do you really blame him for thinking Garrosh might have just told him what he wanted to hear when it came to Magatha's involvement?
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  #66  
Old 07-07-2013, 03:15 AM
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Garrosh told Baine "I will do the same to you I did to your father" or something among those lines, so Baine probably suspected Garrosh of planning the assassination.
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  #67  
Old 07-07-2013, 03:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Pixy View Post
Again, that doesn't change the fact that the war was Alliance vs Horde.

Hell, look at Ashenvale for that matter. The war is between the orcs and the night elves but is also called a war between the Alliance and the Horde. The invasion of Durotar was basically the same moreso since Daelin was also commanding a quite vital part of the Alliance forces.
Daelin's "war" likely constituted a rogue action, not a official war, given that the Alliance assisted the Horde against him and his death signaled the end of the conflict.
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  #68  
Old 07-07-2013, 03:17 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Originally Posted by Pixy View Post
Again, that doesn't change the fact that the war was Alliance vs Horde.

Hell, look at Ashenvale for that matter. The war is between the orcs and the night elves but is also called a war between the Alliance and the Horde. The invasion of Durotar was basically the same moreso since Daelin was also commanding a quite vital part of the Alliance forces.
Look, if a NATO general attacks some country without being ordered to do so, the NATO is not declaring war on that country. Neither is it if the leader of one of it's countries decides to attack another country. If alliances worked that way, we'd be screwed.
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  #69  
Old 07-07-2013, 03:19 AM
Pixy Pixy is offline

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Look, if a NATO general attacks some country without being ordered to do so, the NATO is not declaring war on that country. Neither is it if the leader of one of it'S countries decides to attack another country. If alliances worked that way, we'd be screwed.
Except that country was actively fighting NATO and the war between the two was never officially fixed. Jaina doesn't represent the whole Alliance.

If most of NATO was destroyed/rebuilding and that general commanded one of the countries component of NATO and attacked an enemy then I'd say it's a valid strike.

Not really defending Daelin's position because I decided to concede, but the comparison isn't fair.
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  #70  
Old 07-07-2013, 03:21 AM
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Except that country was actively fighting NATO and the war between the two was never officially fixed. Jaina doesn't represent the whole Alliance.
Actually, that country was newly founded. It only fought against Jaina's forces and had settled it's differences with her.
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  #71  
Old 07-07-2013, 03:22 AM
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Actually, that country was newly founded.
Founded mostly of people who were on a genocidal campaign to annihilate all NATO component countries a few years ago.
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  #72  
Old 07-07-2013, 03:23 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Originally Posted by Yakitori View Post
Baine is wrong in this specific case, but do you really blame him for thinking Garrosh might have just told him what he wanted to hear when it came to Magatha's involvement?
Well, Garrosh is to blame insofar as his burgeoning contempt for the non-orcs in the Horde had him convinced that Cairne wouldn't have the nerve to accept the Mok'gora if it were to the death.

A ton of Garrosh's missteps can be traced directly to him making decisions based upon negative preconceptions of others that turn out to be wrong. He thought Cairne would stand down when the stakes of his challenge were raised. He thought Theramore and the Krakens would cow the Alliance into abandoning Kalimdor and prove him right in the eyes of the other horde leaders.

When it comes down to it, Garrosh is really bad at reading people and judging how they'll react under duress. He's good at the opening punch in a fight, but pretty much always takes it on the jaw right afterward. Every victory is followed by a setback, and he just doesn't know how to handle it.

He's definitely a "one plan" sort of person, who never really has a very solid backup plan for when things turn sour. He's the sort of person who over-thinks his first move, then panics and becomes reactionary when his opponent strikes back afterward.
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  #73  
Old 07-07-2013, 03:26 AM
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Jaina's forces and had settled it's differences with her.
A band of nazi survivors ran from mainland Europe to Argentina, Brazil and South American countries. That didn't stop the alles from hunting each one of them and killing them individually.
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  #74  
Old 07-07-2013, 03:30 AM
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Well this thread went down pretty quick. Good job people.
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  #75  
Old 07-07-2013, 03:31 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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A band of nazi survivors ran from mainland Europe to Argentina, Brazil and South American countries. That didn't stop the allies from hunting each one of them and killing them individually.
Oh, you mean those Nazis who founded families, became respected member of society and were never brought to justice? Besides, while some of Thrall's orcs were leaders during the second and first war, most of them were mere grunts. Do you think every German soldier was a Nazi?
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