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  #11651  
Old 11-10-2020, 09:09 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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I don't think making jokes about white people in the way she did is remotely comparable to racism regarding black people due to the cultural context.

Also: SHE'S WHITE.
Racism is racism.

She's extremely racist.
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  #11652  
Old 11-19-2020, 09:36 AM
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Racism is racism.
I don't agree.

Offhand jokes about how white people fucked up the world through colonialism or are out of touch with social developments are not the same as people who are racist thinking someone else is literally subhuman.


Context matters.
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  #11653  
Old 11-19-2020, 10:20 AM
Aneurysm Aneurysm is offline

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I don't agree.

Offhand jokes about how white people fucked up the world through colonialism or are out of touch with social developments are not the same as people who are racist thinking someone else is literally subhuman.


Context matters.
Those are not off-hand jokes. And even if they were jokes, they'd be racist and sexist jokes, and pretty bad ones at that. Jokes are supposed to have a set-up and punchline, which these tweets don't have. They are simply racist and sexist comments.

Imagine someone saying "Black people must be stopped." or "Dear Arabs, get your shit in order.", in what world would they be considered jokes as opposed to racist and deeply bigoted comments?

You're wearing your bias on your sleeves dismissing this the way you are. Especially your "SHE'S WHITE" comment, as if that would give someone a free pass to be racist towards white people.

So yeah, nah, you're wrong and racism is racism.
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  #11654  
Old 11-21-2020, 08:02 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Those are not off-hand jokes. And even if they were jokes, they'd be racist and sexist jokes, and pretty bad ones at that. Jokes are supposed to have a set-up and punchline, which these tweets don't have. They are simply racist and sexist comments.

Imagine someone saying "Black people must be stopped." or "Dear Arabs, get your shit in order.", in what world would they be considered jokes as opposed to racist and deeply bigoted comments?

You're wearing your bias on your sleeves dismissing this the way you are. Especially your "SHE'S WHITE" comment, as if that would give someone a free pass to be racist towards white people.

So yeah, nah, you're wrong and racism is racism.
1. So you don't think these are jokes and believe that Madeleine Roux dearly and sincerely hates white people? If that's true Aneurysm then I don't know what to tell you.

2. Do you think those comments would be the same if they were said by a black or arab person? Context matters.

3. There's a palpable difference between making offhand twitter comments about ones own race over the course of years and -actually being racist-.


None of this is a concern about racism or discrimination it's just a "gotcha" by Asmongold against a writer he doesn't like.
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  #11655  
Old 11-21-2020, 09:54 AM
Aneurysm Aneurysm is offline

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1. So you don't think these are jokes and believe that Madeleine Roux dearly and sincerely hates white people? If that's true Aneurysm then I don't know what to tell you.
No, I don't think those are jokes. I think they are racist and sexist comments and the product of an increasingly divisive social atmosphere in which it has become perfectly acceptable to shit on white people.

Do I think Roux hate all white people? No, she probably doesn't. But that doesn't mean she can't make distasteful comments on the matter. And apparently she understands how tactless they were, trying to sweep it under the rug by claiming the tweets were photoshopped.

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2. Do you think those comments would be the same if they were said by a black or arab person? Context matters.
Yes, I believe comments such as those would be just as racist, no matter who posted them, and no matter the target. Because...

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3. There's a palpable difference between making offhand twitter comments about ones own race over the course of years and -actually being racist-.
... it doesn't matter what skin colour or ethnicity you have. Racism isn't about punching up, down, or sideways. Racism is about punching, period.


Let me ask you this, Sarm; would it be okay to shit on Muslims today for colonizing and "fucking up the Middle East and Iberia" back during the expansion of Islam? Would it be okay to shit on Scandinavians today for colonizing and "fucking up Britain" during the Viking age? Would it be okay to shit on Han Chinese today for colonizing and "fucking up East Asia" during their expansion? Would it be okay to shit on Turks today for colonizing and "fucking up the Mediterranean and Arabian peninsula" during Ottoman times? Would it be okay to shit on Mongols today for colonizing and "fucking up much of the known world" during their expansion?

Is it okay to shit on entire demographics of people for things their ancestors did?

No, it isn't. We all have awful ancestors who fucked their neighbours over at some point, no matter where you're from. And we don't move past it by continuing to shit on people, that only makes the pendulum swing harder.

But by all means keep on rationalizing racism and sexism the way you are, and be part of the problem you claim to stand against all you want.
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  #11656  
Old 11-21-2020, 07:35 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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No, I don't think those are jokes. I think they are racist and sexist comments and the product of an increasingly divisive social atmosphere in which it has become perfectly acceptable to shit on white people.

Do I think Roux hate all white people? No, she probably doesn't. But that doesn't mean she can't make distasteful comments on the matter. And apparently she understands how tactless they were, trying to sweep it under the rug by claiming the tweets were photoshopped.



Yes, I believe comments such as those would be just as racist, no matter who posted them, and no matter the target. Because...



... it doesn't matter what skin colour or ethnicity you have. Racism isn't about punching up, down, or sideways. Racism is about punching, period.


Let me ask you this, Sarm; would it be okay to shit on Muslims today for colonizing and "fucking up the Middle East and Iberia" back during the expansion of Islam? Would it be okay to shit on Scandinavians today for colonizing and "fucking up Britain" during the Viking age? Would it be okay to shit on Han Chinese today for colonizing and "fucking up East Asia" during their expansion? Would it be okay to shit on Turks today for colonizing and "fucking up the Mediterranean and Arabian peninsula" during Ottoman times? Would it be okay to shit on Mongols today for colonizing and "fucking up much of the known world" during their expansion?

Is it okay to shit on entire demographics of people for things their ancestors did?

No, it isn't. We all have awful ancestors who fucked their neighbours over at some point, no matter where you're from. And we don't move past it by continuing to shit on people, that only makes the pendulum swing harder.

But by all means keep on rationalizing racism and sexism the way you are, and be part of the problem you claim to stand against all you want.
1. your distinction between 'joke' and 'comment' feels specious. If 'racism is racism', then You either think she's sincerely hateful or she's not.

I agree they were tactless, I also think people are massively overreacting, both can be true.

2. So you think black people are racist when they use the N word in music videos or comedy? Do you think the 'naga stole my bike' joke was racism? If it was, do you think everyone who found it funny was racism?

3. Depends, is it a Muslim or Scandinavian, or Chinese person making each of those respective statements? Beyond that, You're making a false equivalence, look at even the closest one of those events and they're considerably different in timescale from US Slavery, the civil rights movement, or even the -active and ongoing- inequality in the US.

4. I think you're being hyperbolic with 'shit on', she said tactless but -incredibly mild- things once every few months over the course of years.

That is not remotely enough to be fired over.
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  #11657  
Old 11-22-2020, 05:48 AM
Aneurysm Aneurysm is offline

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1. your distinction between 'joke' and 'comment' feels specious. If 'racism is racism', then You either think she's sincerely hateful or she's not.
I think the comments in question were sincerely hateful. As I said, jokes require set-up, and punchlines. Roux didn't offer any context to her comments. It's you who put it into the context of being witty anti-imperialistic social commentary. And there's a big difference between criticising flawed political systems, and shitting over entire demographics of people.

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2. So you think black people are racist when they use the N word in music videos or comedy? Do you think the 'naga stole my bike' joke was racism? If it was, do you think everyone who found it funny was racism?
Now that's a false equivalence. But I'll indulge you.

I don't think words alone are racist. When "nigga/nigger" is used to offend, it's racist. But it can also be used in ways that are affectionate and friendly. As you say, context matters.

But the "naga stole my bike"-joke arguably is racist, yes. However that's also quite obviously a joke, crude as it may be. And crude jokes can be funny for sure. And maybe it requires a bit of racist sentiment to find jokes such as that funny. Nobody is perfect, after all.

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3. Depends, is it a Muslim or Scandinavian, or Chinese person making each of those respective statements? Beyond that, You're making a false equivalence, look at even the closest one of those events and they're considerably different in timescale from US Slavery, the civil rights movement, or even the -active and ongoing- inequality in the US.
The Viking and Mongolian invasions are far enough back in history for us not to experience significant ripple effects, I'll agree.

But Ottoman imperialism lasted until WWI, so that's even closer in time than trans-Atlantic slavery, and it has shaped a lot of the social atmosphere that can be felt in Eastern Europe to this day for example. The Ottomans also conducted slavery into the 1900's, up until the fall of their empire. And China is currently being controlled by an extremely oppressive Han Chinese government, and they're conducting slavery still, what with their sweat-shop industries, as well as commiting genocide on people groups within their borders. And let's not get started on the flaws of Islamic expansionism and ideologies, whose effects undeniably linger still.

Regardless, it's racism, or at the very least vitriolic bigotry to make broad, sweeping statements about entire demographics or ethnicities based on crimes committed by governments and people in power.

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4. I think you're being hyperbolic with 'shit on', she said tactless but -incredibly mild- things once every few months over the course of years.
The fact that they are comments repeated over the course of years makes it worse than if it would be a one-off thing, and it says a lot about her sentiments.

And I think it's you who's being out of touch and ignorant to social developments outside of your narrow US-centric world-view.


I'm not even bothered by her comments themselves, but by the hypocricy of defending her. The "woke" crowd thinking it's alright to be offensive towards some people, while trying to shut people down when the same is done towards demographics they deem unjustly treated. It's two-faced and doesn't do anything but continue the cycle of shit-flinging.
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  #11658  
Old 11-22-2020, 08:24 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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The idea that only one group of people are "allowed" to say a word, and that any other people are "not allowed" to say the word, is ridiculous and idiotic.

I had two co-workers in their early twenties. They were best friends and would compose rap music and sing it together. One of these friends would routinely use the n-word in the songs. The other did not, because he socially wasn't allowed to.

Idiocy.
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  #11659  
Old 11-23-2020, 10:45 AM
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I'm not even bothered by her comments themselves, but by the hypocrisy of defending her. The "woke" crowd thinking it's alright to be offensive towards some people, while trying to shut people down when the same is done towards demographics they deem unjustly treated. It's two-faced and doesn't do anything but continue the cycle of shit-flinging.
I'm judging her by a us standard because she's a US citizen and so am I. We have different race relations than Europe.

Also, Witty Anti-imperialistic social commentary is what most of twitter IS that's not something I'm imagining or projecting. My understanding is that most of these tweets were in response to dumb political shit old white US politicians are doing.


I think you're making assumptions about a person out of context, I don't see what she's said as all that different from Grackle's example with the co-workers and rap music.

EDIT: Also not talking about just trans atlantic slave trade, you've got to keep in mind how recent a lot of civil rights issues are in the US

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The idea that only one group of people are "allowed" to say a word, and that any other people are "not allowed" to say the word, is ridiculous and idiotic.

I had two co-workers in their early twenties. They were best friends and would compose rap music and sing it together. One of these friends would routinely use the n-word in the songs. The other did not, because he socially wasn't allowed to.

Idiocy.
It's not idiotic it's realistic, life isn't fair and historical context matters. If one coworker can use the word in their lyrics due to historical context and the other can't then that's it.

No one's stopping white guys from using 'cracker' or w/e in their raps if they're so desperate for lyrics.



This really isn't that hard. People can trash their own race all they want but can't use slurs about other races. Why is this considered so 'idiotic' or unreasonable?
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  #11660  
Old 11-23-2020, 12:59 PM
Aneurysm Aneurysm is offline

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This really isn't that hard. People can trash their own race all they want but can't use slurs about other races. Why is this considered so 'idiotic' or unreasonable?
It's idiotic because racism is racism. And either you're okay with racism, or you aren't.

But at this point I'm going to do what Ruin did and peace out, because apparently it's too complicated for you to understand, and there's obviously no point in trying to convince you otherwise.
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  #11661  
Old 11-23-2020, 01:52 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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It's not idiotic it's realistic
Realistically, when I hear someone use that word, I'm not going to do a quick scan of your skin color or look through your family tree in order to determine if you get a thumbs up.

Hilariously illustrated in that episode of Blackish, where Andre found out his daughter's friends were ALL using the n-word casually, so at the end of the episode he sits them all down to try to determine, one by one, which friends are okay to say it.

"And you... you..."
(states at boy with a vague tan? skin color)
"...I'm gonna have to talk to your parents."

EDIT: Yes, it's just a comedy TV show. But if you're a parent who raises your black child to believe he can just use that word in society, then you're sabotaging him. (Much in the way Dre's son got suspended at the start of that episode and had no idea why. Dre went straight to the principal's office in righteous indignation, ready to tear him a new one, until he saw the principal was also a black man. Suddenly he couldn't coherently explain why he thought his son had the right to shout racial slurs.)

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 11-23-2020 at 02:04 PM..
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  #11662  
Old 11-23-2020, 06:11 PM
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It's idiotic because racism is racism. And either you're okay with racism, or you aren't.

But at this point I'm going to do what Ruin did and peace out, because apparently it's too complicated for you to understand, and there's obviously no point in trying to convince you otherwise.
It's not 'too complicated', yall think that a white woman saying 'white men must be stopped' in response to old white politicians being stupid is the same as black people being called the N word by white people, or black people saying it in rap music, and I don't.

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Realistically, when I hear someone use that word, I'm not going to do a quick scan of your skin color or look through your family tree in order to determine if you get a thumbs up.

Hilariously illustrated in that episode of Blackish, where Andre found out his daughter's friends were ALL using the n-word casually, so at the end of the episode he sits them all down to try to determine, one by one, which friends are okay to say it.

"And you... you..."
(states at boy with a vague tan? skin color)
"...I'm gonna have to talk to your parents."

EDIT: Yes, it's just a comedy TV show. But if you're a parent who raises your black child to believe he can just use that word in society, then you're sabotaging him. (Much in the way Dre's son got suspended at the start of that episode and had no idea why. Dre went straight to the principal's office in righteous indignation, ready to tear him a new one, until he saw the principal was also a black man. Suddenly he couldn't coherently explain why he thought his son had the right to shout racial slurs.)
I'm not going to debate with you over a tv show that I don't watch and it's handling of the issue.
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  #11663  
Old 11-24-2020, 06:26 AM
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I think that, if anyone is allowed to make racist jokes about a human "race" (There is no such thing as human races.), it is people belonging to the same group that is the butt of the joke. But you shouldn’t be surprised if people take offense, even if you happen to share skin color with them or didn’t mean any offense.

When my aunt told my mother that, by marrying a German man, she was "improving her race", my mother was right to be offended, even if the person who had offended her happened to be her biological sister.

So would I say that white men are entitled to feel offense in response to Roux’s Tweets? Yep.

In any case, there’s something crucial we are missing:
Roux’s statement that they were jokes.

To my knowledge, she denies ever having written the Tweets and claims that they were Photoshopped. That, to me, sounds like an admission that, if they are indeed genuine, they were definitely not meant in jest.

So the defense of "it was just a joke" rings hollow when it contradicts her behavior.
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  #11664  
Old 11-24-2020, 08:17 AM
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I think that, if anyone is allowed to make racist jokes about a human "race" (There is no such thing as human races.), it is people belonging to the same group that is the butt of the joke. But you shouldn’t be surprised if people take offense, even if you happen to share skin color with them or didn’t mean any offense.

When my aunt told my mother that, by marrying a German man, she was "improving her race", my mother was right to be offended, even if the person who had offended her happened to be her biological sister.

So would I say that white men are entitled to feel offense in response to Roux’s Tweets? Yep.

In any case, there’s something crucial we are missing:
Roux’s statement that they were jokes.

To my knowledge, she denies ever having written the Tweets and claims that they were Photoshopped. That, to me, sounds like an admission that, if they are indeed genuine, they were definitely not meant in jest.

So the defense of "it was just a joke" rings hollow when it contradicts her behavior.
1. I'm not surprised people took offense, rather I'm arguing that the level of outrage is intentionally overblown to create some kind of false equivalence.

2. That's fucked up and gets more into eugenics so I'm not sure it's comparable to Roux's statements.

3. Oh Roux absolutely fucked this up by trying to deny them because they were tactless.
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  #11665  
Old 11-25-2020, 07:07 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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I'm not going to debate with you over a tv show that I don't watch and it's handling of the issue.
If you can't defend your opinion when it's set against the tiniest shred of examination, then it holds no value.

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I think that, if anyone is allowed to make racist jokes about a human "race" (There is no such thing as human races.), it is people belonging to the same group that is the butt of the joke.
I think expecting people to censor themselves this way is unreasonable, in that it does not sustain. Black and white children play together. They listen to the same music. You already see it... the n-word is more or less on the same path as the f-bomb. Not heard in polite society, but otherwise fair game among friends. That's just something to make peace with.
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  #11666  
Old 11-25-2020, 07:19 AM
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If you can't defend your opinion when it's set against the tiniest shred of examination, then it holds no value.



I think expecting people to censor themselves this way is unreasonable, in that it does not sustain. Black and white children play together. They listen to the same music. You already see it... the n-word is more or less on the same path as the f-bomb. Not heard in polite society, but otherwise fair game among friends. That's just something to make peace with.
"Tiniest shred of examination" is obvious hyperbole, a TV show isn't real life, it's a constructed situation, you could make a tv show an example for anything, doesn't mean it's accurate or based in reality.
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  #11667  
Old 11-25-2020, 07:44 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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"Tiniest shred of examination" is obvious hyperbole, a TV show isn't real life, it's a constructed situation, you could make a tv show an example for anything, doesn't mean it's accurate or based in reality.
Iron sharpens iron, man! The argument isn't about a TV show.
This is a reality of black and white children who grow up together and share the same interests, who see no reason why they shouldn't talk the same way other than a racial grudge they've inherited from "boomers". It's a world of mixed race children, who have heritage of both slavers and slaves.

If you hear someone say the n-word, without a sufficiently "urban accent", does your brain do a quick check? Would you need to scan their skin really fast to make sure its tone seems to make them worthy of a racial slur? If another black person is in the room, are they not allowed to be offended?

Those two former co-workers I told you about? Neither one of them was using that word when they were in earshot of the older black workers at my job site. But I guarantee you, that when they were off work and just hanging out together, the white guy was singing any lyric he wanted. They had a level of social acceptance for themselves, one for when they were among only whites, and one for when older blacks were present (or any supervisors). To them, we were all the joke.
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  #11668  
Old 11-25-2020, 08:40 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Iron sharpens iron, man! The argument isn't about a TV show.
This is a reality of black and white children who grow up together and share the same interests, who see no reason why they shouldn't talk the same way other than a racial grudge they've inherited from "boomers". It's a world of mixed race children, who have heritage of both slavers and slaves.

If you hear someone say the n-word, without a sufficiently "urban accent", does your brain do a quick check? Would you need to scan their skin really fast to make sure its tone seems to make them worthy of a racial slur? If another black person is in the room, are they not allowed to be offended?

Those two former co-workers I told you about? Neither one of them was using that word when they were in earshot of the older black workers at my job site. But I guarantee you, that when they were off work and just hanging out together, the white guy was singing any lyric he wanted. They had a level of social acceptance for themselves, one for when they were among only whites, and one for when older blacks were present (or any supervisors). To them, we were all the joke.

You're literally making my argument that context matters.
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  #11669  
Old 11-25-2020, 10:22 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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You're literally making my argument that context matters.
The position of: "This single word is abominable and should never be spoken, except black people can do it", is already becoming a relic. Get used to hearing non-blacks using it more frequently, and rolling their eyes if you disapprove.
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  #11670  
Old 11-26-2020, 02:46 AM
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To me it's not about the level of severity, but about calling things what they actually are. And sweeping statements about entire groups of people is racism (or tribalistic bigotry, whatever you want to call it), no matter who says it, no matter the target, and no matter how you contextualize it.
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  #11671  
Old 11-26-2020, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Aneurysm View Post
To me it's not about the level of severity, but about calling things what they actually are. And sweeping statements about entire groups of people is racism (or tribalistic bigotry, whatever you want to call it), no matter who says it, no matter the target, and no matter how you contextualize it.
I mean no one's arguing whether it meets the textbook definition of racism or not.

I am arguing that the reaction to her by asmongold and such is manufactured and overblown, and that nothing she wrote comes even close to warrant firing her.

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
The position of: "This single word is abominable and should never be spoken, except black people can do it", is already becoming a relic. Get used to hearing non-blacks using it more frequently, and rolling their eyes if you disapprove.
That's a completely different argument though.

Whether we 'should' have words that are considered slurs or not is separate from whether a word currently still -is- a racial pejorative in most context.
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Old 11-28-2020, 12:46 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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I’ll just reiterate that, while I don’t think that she should be fired given that this is her private account and that she made the remarks before even being hired, if Blizzard did their due diligence, she would not have been hired to begin with. You’ve got to protect the reputation of your company, and being an author, she’s in the spotlight.

(To my knowledge, she’s not even an employee, like Golden, so, unless she is writing another book for them, they can’t fire someone who doesn’t work for them even if they wanted to.)
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  #11673  
Old 11-28-2020, 02:16 AM
Aneurysm Aneurysm is offline

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Cancel culture overall is fucking bullshit. I don't think anyone should be fired over remarks or comments made in their private time (unless it's literally illegal behaviour we're talking about, like making threats and inciting violence).

As long as they don't bring whatever questionable sentiments they may hold over into their work, private life and professional life shouldn't interfere with one another.
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Old 12-02-2020, 07:11 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Ah, I miss all this.
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