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  #26  
Old 04-15-2014, 06:55 AM
Lon-ami Lon-ami is offline

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I remember when Ironforge was the CAPITAL of the Grand Alliance.

Now? You are pitiful, dwarves.
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  #27  
Old 04-15-2014, 06:55 AM
Yakitori Yakitori is offline

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Originally Posted by belorealah View Post
Elaborate?
Well, elves are a graceful, tall, not very hairy race that appreciates beauty; dwarves are short, stout, blunt, hairy, and sometimes crude. Plus in most settings, elves and dwarves just don't get along with each other because they're worried the other side might try to force some kind of societal or territorial change upon them (when humans aren't doing the same to them both).

Remember, Gimli and Legolas had to slowly work towards their friendship, which was built from working together in battle. They didn't get along very well at first.
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  #28  
Old 04-15-2014, 07:09 AM
belorealah belorealah is offline

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Originally Posted by Yakitori View Post
Well, elves are a graceful, tall, not very hairy race that appreciates beauty; dwarves are short, stout, blunt, hairy, and sometimes crude. Plus in most settings, elves and dwarves just don't get along with each other because they're worried the other side might try to force some kind of societal or territorial change upon them (when humans aren't doing the same to them both).

Remember, Gimli and Legolas had to slowly work towards their friendship, which was built from working together in battle. They didn't get along very well at first.
Don't think you can compare wow elves to Tolkien elves sadly. Two very differing cultures.

Um, I can see your point. However we know the wildhammers were firm friends of the elves. Plus, both races are long lived, intelligent and able fighters. I can see them having a fair bit in common, even if they don't look like.

And an elf can be crude, ugly and blunt. Even hairy, on their head
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  #29  
Old 04-15-2014, 07:16 AM
Yakitori Yakitori is offline

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Originally Posted by belorealah View Post
Don't think you can compare wow elves to Tolkien elves sadly. Two very differing cultures.

Um, I can see your point. However we know the wildhammers were firm friends of the elves. Plus, both races are long lived, intelligent and able fighters. I can see them having a fair bit in common, even if they don't look like.

And an elf can be crude, ugly and blunt. Even hairy, on their head
Sadly, most elves and dwarves can trace how they act back towards Tolkien. The elves of WoW are more like... the elves of Dragonlance, actually. Quite content to not pay any mind to what's going on outside of their borders until they get dragged into it, and then once the threat is over, pull out support and go right back to their isolation.

I would also argue that the Wildhammer got along with the High Elves because they weren't quite as... dwarf-y as other dwarves. They didn't live underground and carve cities into the mountains; they lived in the open skies and appreciated nature. But a Bronzebeard and a High Elf? Well, that might be a different story entirely.
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  #30  
Old 04-15-2014, 07:19 AM
belorealah belorealah is offline

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Originally Posted by Yakitori View Post
Sadly, most elves and dwarves can trace how they act back towards Tolkien. The elves of WoW are more like... the elves of Dragonlance, actually. Quite content to not pay any mind to what's going on outside of their borders until they get dragged into it, and then once the threat is over, pull out support and go right back to their isolation.

I would also argue that the Wildhammer got along with the High Elves because they weren't quite as... dwarf-y as other dwarves. They didn't live underground and carve cities into the mountains; they lived in the open skies and appreciated nature. But a Bronzebeard and a High Elf? Well, that might be a different story entirely.
Valid I guess...
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  #31  
Old 04-15-2014, 09:07 AM
Thunderbraid Thunderbraid is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakitori View Post
Well, elves are a graceful, tall, not very hairy race that appreciates beauty; dwarves are short, stout, blunt, hairy, and sometimes crude. Plus in most settings, elves and dwarves just don't get along with each other because they're worried the other side might try to force some kind of societal or territorial change upon them (when humans aren't doing the same to them both).

Remember, Gimli and Legolas had to slowly work towards their friendship, which was built from working together in battle. They didn't get along very well at first.
But not in Warcraft, this is the important thing. Everything you describe is from OTHER SETTINGS, you say that yourself. In Warcraft it is established this is NOT THE CASE because there are few examples of hostilities between the races but there ARE plenty of examples of friendships.

This is where most people fall flat on their face with their logic - They stereotype. And the last thing you can say about elf-dwarf relations in Warcraft is that they are stereotypical. Because they are not. Before you even think about getting embroiled on a debate on the subject, leave your stereotypes by the door where they belong, because they are A. Not welcome and B. Entirely wrong in the Warcraft setting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakitori View Post
Sadly, most elves and dwarves can trace how they act back towards Tolkien. The elves of WoW are more like... the elves of Dragonlance, actually. Quite content to not pay any mind to what's going on outside of their borders until they get dragged into it, and then once the threat is over, pull out support and go right back to their isolation.

I would also argue that the Wildhammer got along with the High Elves because they weren't quite as... dwarf-y as other dwarves. They didn't live underground and carve cities into the mountains; they lived in the open skies and appreciated nature. But a Bronzebeard and a High Elf? Well, that might be a different story entirely.
No, they don't. Not in the elf-dwarf relationship front. Nor on any other fronts. Elves and Dwarves have NEVER had a massive conflict like they have in Warhammer or LOTR. Again you are stereotyping and assuming that because it is the fantasy stereotype it is true for Warcraft dwarves when, again, it is NOT.

There are far more examples of dwarves and elves getting along in Warcraft than there are them being hostile to each other. And it is NOT just the Wildhammers, the Bronzebeards are counted as well.

Gidwin and Tarenar in the Eastern Plaguelands.

Magni having a great respect for the Night Elves. (The Shattering, said by Advisor Belgrum to Tyrande and Malfurion when they attended Magni's funeral)

The Blood Elves sending an Ambassador to Magni's funeral despite rising hostilities between the Horde and the Alliance.

Thargas Anvilmar repeating dwarven respect for the Night Elves in Wolfheart when he arrived for the Darnassus Summit.

There is intrinsic evidence that elves and dwarves as a whole (There will be individual exceptions due to individual experiences), as nations and political bodies, do not have any lasting enmity that they do in other fantasy settings.

Last edited by Thunderbraid; 04-15-2014 at 09:12 AM..
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  #32  
Old 04-15-2014, 09:13 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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It would probably be best to distinguish between night elves and blood elves. (Not that it would change much, but both kinds of elves are different enough to be treated differently by other species.)
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  #33  
Old 04-15-2014, 09:15 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderbraid View Post
The Blood Elves sending an Ambassador to Magni's funeral despite rising hostilities between the Horde and the Alliance.
Wait what?
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  #34  
Old 04-15-2014, 09:21 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Wait what?
Yep, that happened. The Horde sent a tauren and a blood elf. The (neutral) goblins also sent representatives.
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  #35  
Old 04-15-2014, 09:23 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Yep, that happened. The Horde sent a tauren and a blood elf. The (neutral) goblins also sent representatives.
Why? I'm not talking about rising tensions, I mean their pasts together.
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  #36  
Old 04-15-2014, 09:26 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Why? I'm not talking about rising tensions, I mean their pasts together.
It was out of the respect the Horde and Thrall had for him, but the book doesn't actually tell you how he earned it. It also doesn't tell you whether the blood elves volunteered or Thrall chose to sen one of them because a troll or orc would be less welcome.
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  #37  
Old 04-15-2014, 09:40 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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it was out of the respect the horde and thrall had for him, but the book doesn't actually tell you how he earned it. It also doesn't tell you whether the blood elves volunteered or thrall chose to sen one of them because a troll or orc would be less welcome.
why?!
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  #38  
Old 04-15-2014, 09:48 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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why?!
Like I said, the book doesn't elaborate. It probably has something to do with upholding the peace and dwarves being eco (earth) friendly.

Last edited by Nazja; 04-15-2014 at 09:57 AM..
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  #39  
Old 04-15-2014, 10:17 AM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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Originally Posted by Thunderbraid View Post
But not in Warcraft, this is the important thing. Everything you describe is from OTHER SETTINGS, you say that yourself. In Warcraft it is established this is NOT THE CASE because there are few examples of hostilities between the races but there ARE plenty of examples of friendships.

This is where most people fall flat on their face with their logic - They stereotype. And the last thing you can say about elf-dwarf relations in Warcraft is that they are stereotypical. Because they are not. Before you even think about getting embroiled on a debate on the subject, leave your stereotypes by the door where they belong, because they are A. Not welcome and B. Entirely wrong in the Warcraft setting.



No, they don't. Not in the elf-dwarf relationship front. Nor on any other fronts. Elves and Dwarves have NEVER had a massive conflict like they have in Warhammer or LOTR. Again you are stereotyping and assuming that because it is the fantasy stereotype it is true for Warcraft dwarves when, again, it is NOT.

There are far more examples of dwarves and elves getting along in Warcraft than there are them being hostile to each other. And it is NOT just the Wildhammers, the Bronzebeards are counted as well.

Gidwin and Tarenar in the Eastern Plaguelands.

Magni having a great respect for the Night Elves. (The Shattering, said by Advisor Belgrum to Tyrande and Malfurion when they attended Magni's funeral)

The Blood Elves sending an Ambassador to Magni's funeral despite rising hostilities between the Horde and the Alliance.

Thargas Anvilmar repeating dwarven respect for the Night Elves in Wolfheart when he arrived for the Darnassus Summit.

There is intrinsic evidence that elves and dwarves as a whole (There will be individual exceptions due to individual experiences), as nations and political bodies, do not have any lasting enmity that they do in other fantasy settings.
Don't forget the friendship of the high elves and the wildhammers which brought the wildhammers into the second war. The largest high elf enclave outside of Dalaran and Stormwind lies next door to Aerie Peak. The recent blood knight book spoke of how the high elves tried to send ships with children to the wildhammers for refuge. Ships that never reached their destination.
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  #40  
Old 04-15-2014, 10:17 AM
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Humanity rescued the dwarves, gaining their favor. However, this isn't like the Orc-Tauren-Troll relationship. The two people were independent, once, and their rescue in the Second War was pretty embarrassing.

What I'm trying to say is: The dwarves are indebted to the Alliance. Whereas the races of the Horde celebrate their cooperation (they were all pretty close to extinction), the dwarves are... Well, it's like your baby brother coming to get you out of a fight. Or your girlfriend, even.
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  #41  
Old 04-15-2014, 11:00 AM
Anne_Neritas Anne_Neritas is offline

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People applying stereotypes to the various races of Warcraft has always been a major issue. It'll never stop. As someone who plays Dwarves, Goblins, and Pandaren, this is something I know very, very, well.
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  #42  
Old 04-15-2014, 12:40 PM
Thunderbraid Thunderbraid is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hagrid View Post
Humanity rescued the dwarves, gaining their favor. However, this isn't like the Orc-Tauren-Troll relationship. The two people were independent, once, and their rescue in the Second War was pretty embarrassing.

What I'm trying to say is: The dwarves are indebted to the Alliance. Whereas the races of the Horde celebrate their cooperation (they were all pretty close to extinction), the dwarves are... Well, it's like your baby brother coming to get you out of a fight. Or your girlfriend, even.
And how long does this go on for? The humans have made no effort to continue to hold the dwarves' respect. Realistically by now, after nearly 10 years and the original king who made the oath dead, the human king having breached Ironforge's sovereignty massively and numerous deaths fighting human-led wars there should start to be some discontent.

I think expecting the average dwarf who has nothing to do with the humans in his/her everyday life to keep to the oath a previous king made in different political circumstances 100% of the time for ever and ever is a bit far, no?

Last edited by Thunderbraid; 04-15-2014 at 12:44 PM..
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