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View Poll Results: Who is your favourite Warchief?
Blackhand the Destroyer 1 2.78%
Orgrim Doomhammer 3 8.33%
Ner'zhul, the Elder Shaman 6 16.67%
Thrall, son of Durotan 20 55.56%
Rend Blackhand 1 2.78%
Kargath Bladefist 1 2.78%
Warchief Mor'ghor 2 5.56%
Garrosh Hellscream 2 5.56%
Voters: 36. You may not vote on this poll

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  #26  
Old 07-14-2013, 11:29 AM
Darkwind Darkwind is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
...yeah, I really need to update my Second War thread.

SPOILER!
It's related to the fact that in the Warcraft: Orcs & Humans human campaign, the orcs are too busy fighting for their lives to have a coup against Blackhand. Cross-applied to Gul'dan and the original version of him being captured by Alliance forces at Darrowmere, as indicated by the Official Strategy Guide. Good luck opening the Tomb of Sargeras from a prison in the Violet Citadel!
You'll have to do that because I'm not really following...

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Hero Ogrim is dumb. He was a ruthless man who bowed to no one, but had enough sense to make allies and use whatever he can to get an advantage. His weakness was thinking Gul'dan was more of a coward than a backstabber.
I also felt he was a coward himself; he assassinated Blackhand, after waiting for Gul'dan to fall into a coma, and ambushed Lothar. He was opportunistic, for sure, but I didn't really see him as ruthless. He let Gul'dan live, after all

Last edited by Darkwind; 07-14-2013 at 11:32 AM..
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  #27  
Old 07-14-2013, 11:37 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Ner'zul had the most engaging character of them all. He was a tragic character done well, he tried to do good, his actions eventually saved his people but no one knows of his good and he is remembered as a villain by the very people he saved. Eventually too much pressure, desperation, and in the end sheer power, made him lose it. Immediately after he got soulraped by KJ and was never really allowed to do much (except save the world through Illidan) before being replaced by Golden's idiot version of Arthas.
Which means that in a way he never got the chance to get his wits together after going power crazy, first he got tormented by KJ, then policed by dreadlords, then he got taken out by Arthas. To me that magnifies his tragedy even more because that moment, after getting freed by Arthas would have been the moment where he assumes control and for the first time in dozens of years he could make his choice without pressure, it could have been the day he tried to help his people or the world as he once did. But even that was taken from him. The sheer tragedy of it all is so absolute I can only imagine Blizz made something so good by a fluke.

Last edited by C9H20; 07-14-2013 at 11:40 AM..
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  #28  
Old 07-14-2013, 11:43 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Originally Posted by C9H20 View Post
Ner'zul had the most engaging character of them all. He was a tragic character done well, he tried to do good, his actions eventually saved his people but no one knows of his good and he is remembered as a villain by the very people he saved. Eventually too much pressure, desperation, and in the end sheer power, made him lose it. Immediately after he got soulraped by KJ and was never really allowed to do much (except save the world through Illidan) before being replaced by Golden's idiot version of Arthas.
Which means that in a way he never got the chance to get his wits together after going power crazy, first he got tormented by KJ, then policed by dreadlords, then he got taken out by Arthas. To me that expounds his tragedy even more because that moment, after getting freed by Arthas would have been the moment where he assumes control and for the first time in dozens of years he could make his choice without pressure, it could have been the day he tried to help his people or the world as he once did. But even that was taken from him. The sheer tragedy of it all is so absolute I can only imagine Blizz made something so good by a fluke.
Well, the Dreadlords both policed him AND did his bidding - Mal'Ganis was genuinely surprised that "the Dark Lord" tried to betray him - he obviously told the demon a different plan regarding Arthas's corruption.

WC3 manual describes how Ner'zhul mind controlled and manipulated Ice Trolls and Wendigo to craft his very first army, that under the command of dreadlords conquered Azjol-Nerub, the architecture of which Ner'zhul adopted for the Scourge.
(maybe someday someone will make a custom campaign about it)
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  #29  
Old 07-14-2013, 11:57 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard View Post
Well, the Dreadlords both policed him AND did his bidding - Mal'Ganis was genuinely surprised that "the Dark Lord" tried to betray him - he obviously told the demon a different plan regarding Arthas's corruption.

WC3 manual describes how Ner'zhul mind controlled and manipulated Ice Trolls and Wendigo to craft his very first army, that under the command of dreadlords conquered Azjol-Nerub, the architecture of which Ner'zhul adopted for the Scourge.
(maybe someday someone will make a custom campaign about it)
That his jailers also had the task to ensure his mission was successful is not surprising nor in any way an extenuating circumstance to his overall predicament.

Imagine if Ner'zul, out of the blue, said he won't destroy Lordaeron. Would the Dreadlords go, cool wanna play blackjack again tonight?

I would say the narrative was pretty clear that his hands were tied until most of the Dreadlords left with Archimonde and, through NZ's machinations, died in Kalimdor.

I suppose one could say that he could have then taken a different host, rather than wait for Arthas, which in turn would have given him the "self determination moment" I spoke of sooner.
However he stuck with his plan, sadly he backed the wrong horse and in typical Ner'zulian fashion it ended in the worst way possible for him.

That said, what do you guys think Ner'zul would be if he was still around. A tragic hero, a villain or in fact a victim?

Last edited by C9H20; 07-14-2013 at 11:59 AM..
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  #30  
Old 07-14-2013, 12:03 PM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Originally Posted by C9H20 View Post
That said, what do you guys think Ner'zul would be if he was still around. A tragic hero, a villain or in fact a victim?
If Arthas's apparent inner struggle despite losing his heart is any indication... Then a villain. Being a former orc, he probably enjoyed destroying the Alliance, though I suppose he could leave the Horde alone, or maybe try to turn them into his own cultists.
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  #31  
Old 07-14-2013, 12:11 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Sorry (I already said I am no expert on Doomhammer and Blackhand) but isnt WC3 Doomhammer modern version? Gloryfied and heroic?
When we say Modern Doomhammer, I think we're referring to the Tides of Darkness novel. Before that novel, a lot of the Warcraft II battles were still assumed to have happened... including several Horde victories. After the novel... well...

Maybe I can illustrate it.

Moment before Gul'dan's betrayal, Warcraft III presentation:




Moment before Gul'dan's betrayal, WoW:ToD presentation:




Good luck winning that war for the Horde, with or without betrayal.

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 07-14-2013 at 12:17 PM..
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  #32  
Old 07-14-2013, 12:15 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard View Post
If Arthas's apparent inner struggle despite losing his heart is any indication... Then a villain. Being a former orc, he probably enjoyed destroying the Alliance, though I suppose he could leave the Horde alone, or maybe try to turn them into his own cultists.
I don't follow. What does Arthas have to do with anything?
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  #33  
Old 07-14-2013, 12:30 PM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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Garrosh Hellscream

He managed to accomplish what others couldn't. Make the players themselves so angry they quit the game. You gotta respect that.

On a more serious note, I like how he tried to add new forces like Magma giants or w/e they were called, krakens etc. He's perfect for a warrior society like the Horde, though his personality has many faults and he treats his allies like shit....
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  #34  
Old 07-14-2013, 12:39 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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and he treats his allies like shit....
If this part weren't true, things would be quite different for Garrosh.
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  #35  
Old 07-14-2013, 12:41 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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I refuse to dignify this thread's title by picking one.
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You are right Fojar.
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You are right Fojar.
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  #36  
Old 07-14-2013, 01:00 PM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Originally Posted by C9H20 View Post
I don't follow. What does Arthas have to do with anything?
"
Uther the Lightbringer says: I do not know, Jaina. I suspect that the piece of Arthas that might be left inside the Lich King is all that holds the Scourge from annihilating Azeroth.
"

If "a piece of Arthas" struggles to keep Scourge back, then "a piece of Ner'zhul" must be struggling to have it go to war.

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I refuse to dignify this thread's title by picking one.
Why?
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  #37  
Old 07-14-2013, 01:19 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard View Post
If "a piece of Arthas" struggles to keep Scourge back, then "a piece of Ner'zhul" must be struggling to have it go to war.
I would say Uther was delusional, Arthas clearly didn't give a damn about the world and he would have probably steamrolled it had his idea of a fun game not backfired.

Arthas was a monster, the lore is fairly unambiguous about that. Still I'd rather talk about Ner'zul rather than about that failed character.

That said, the way I see things Ner'zul would probably be a villain (I always feel childish when I use such terminology) initially. He like Arthas would inflict horrible suffering upon Azeroth to sate his boredom and ego. So much so that to many he would be beyond redemption. But I don't tend to see things through such lens and I feel that eventually Ner'zul would become a decent guy again, or as close to it a mass murderer can get. Had he lived that is.
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  #38  
Old 07-14-2013, 01:24 PM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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  #39  
Old 07-14-2013, 01:27 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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I'm thinking that if anything would have been pressuring Arthas to total war against Azeroth's inhabitants (other than the suddenly revealed, apparently inherent need of all Scourge to mindlessly overrun the planet and kill everyone without a Lich King - a need that's conspicuously absent in the Ebon Blade and Forsaken), it would have been that he had a vampiric soul-eating runeblade whispering in his ear all the time. War means killing people, which would mean feeding more souls to Frostmourne.
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  #40  
Old 07-14-2013, 01:30 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
If this part weren't true, things would be quite different for Garrosh.
I don't mind being treated like shit in the game. Orcs are like big stupid jocks and it gives some what of a motivation to prove them wrong. It creates some friction and drama. That isn't the part that upsets me. It is the whole mustache twirly villain thing they did with the orcs. I want to hate the Alliance but it becomes difficult when the orcs and forsaken brutalize them so hard. It would be like if someone stole my lunch money but then someone else killed them for it. I would still feel sorry for them.
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  #41  
Old 07-14-2013, 01:30 PM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Wasn't Frostmourne Ner'zhul's walkie-talky, as shown during the final confrontations with Mal'Ganis and Terenas? Is it supposed to be half-sentient by itself?
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  #42  
Old 07-14-2013, 01:34 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard View Post
Wasn't Frostmourne Ner'zhul's walkie-talky, as shown during the final confrontations with Mal'Ganis and Terenas? Is it supposed to be half-sentient by itself?
It's sentient, and according to a page on the official site during 3.3's release, its constant whispers are why Arthas started obsessively incorporating the design of the sword's pommel and runes into the Scourge's post-TFT architecture. Presumably Ner'zhul could speak through the blade as Lich King, but otherwise it had its own personality and awareness that was implied to have influenced Arthas' behavior.

I have to wonder if the other characters knew it was sentient, though. I wonder if Jaina would have bothered communing with the sword if she knew that it was probably warning Arthas the whole time she was doing it.
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  #43  
Old 07-14-2013, 01:40 PM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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You forgot one Warchief...

My vote is for Gul'dan, the real power behind the throne of Warchief. After all, Blackhand was Warchief INO. Gul'dan was pulling his strings the entire time.

And then Gul'dan didn't care what Doomhammer wanted and pulled his forces to go a hunting for the Tomb of Sargy. Because that's how Gul'dan rolls.
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  #44  
Old 07-14-2013, 01:47 PM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Gul'dan was never an official Warchief.

And stop dissing Blackhand already.
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  #45  
Old 07-14-2013, 02:52 PM
Royalpimp Royalpimp is offline

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Thrall. He made the Horde what it is today for the most part and he's had the most exposure.

I would have voted Orgrim if they didn't completely botch things up with the novels -.-'. LotC, Warcraft 2 and 3 Orgrim were a lot cooler than the canon one.

Ner'zhul comes as a close second to Thrall. For reasons that were already stated though I liked him better as the Lich King than the Warchief of Draenor.

The others I either don't like at all(like Garrosh) or don't present the slightest interest to me(though I think Blackhand is dissed a bit unfairly).
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  #46  
Old 07-14-2013, 02:58 PM
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I would have voted Orgrim if they didn't completely botch things up with the novels -.-'. LotC, Warcraft 2 and 3 Orgrim were a lot cooler than the canon one.
Personally I liked Ogrim in ToD. Not sure why people hate him for his appearance in that novel.
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  #47  
Old 07-14-2013, 03:00 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Personally I liked Ogrim in ToD. Not sure why people hate him for his appearance in that novel.
In a time of war he was too honorable with that duel. They should've stuck with that assassination but I suspect it was because they wanted to give Lothar an honorable death.
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  #48  
Old 07-14-2013, 03:01 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Personally I liked Ogrim in ToD. Not sure why people hate him for his appearance in that novel.
*Doesn't drink the demon blood but proves to be more genocidal than any other orc

*Terrible strategist who gets his armies killed in record time, while scoring no real victories against the Alliance

*Literally kills his own soldiers when they get in his way, at Blackrock Spire
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  #49  
Old 07-14-2013, 03:09 PM
Royalpimp Royalpimp is offline

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Personally I liked Ogrim in ToD. Not sure why people hate him for his appearance in that novel.
Several things but the shortest answer is that he was too incompetent. DotD and LotC mentioned him as the 'Legendary Warchief of the Horde' that almost destroyed the Alliance,and the second war novels made him out to be anything but that. Probably the worst novels that were ever made in Warcraft.

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  #50  
Old 07-14-2013, 03:33 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Probably the worst novels that were ever made in Warcraft.
On the flipside it is excellent fap material if you are a die hard Alliance fanzy.
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