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  #51  
Old 12-06-2013, 12:32 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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I'm just going to say that there's a difference between yours, Blizzard's and other fans' interpretations of Taran Zhu, which is a larger problem in their writing.

The bit about them walking away, they were doing so before addressing their grievances because Taran Zhu told them to walk away. You might also be taking the phrase walk away too literally.
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  #52  
Old 12-06-2013, 12:32 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Sure, but just because I accept the shit doesn't mean I'll deny it is shit. There are more interesting story concepts created by fans, but Blizz decides to go with some of the most random idiotic plots I heard of. WoD looks pretty, but the plot has a lot to answer for.
Even though my respect for you has kinda lowered the past few weeks, I can't help but say that I agree immensely with this.

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I'll be fair. Over-philosophizing can be considered something of a fair complaint. It's not one I agree with (I see their tendency for it as an interesting part of their culture), but the whole philosophy thing is definitely wide-spread. What I was talking about was preachiness, a.k.a. the writers trying to impose that philosophy on the players.
I agree, but I think Pandaren do tend to have a sense of preachiness going on. Thing is though, there are more fans than none who specify which kind of Pandaren they complain about rather than simply condemning the entire race. I, personally, admit that I like certain Pandaren characters that aren't part of a neutral faction or haven't dominated a short story that was meant to develop another character.

Anyway, I will say again that my stance on the Lore is that it's terrible but I've just decided not to care about it anymore and look forward to gameplay elements.
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  #53  
Old 12-06-2013, 12:38 PM
Lutinz Lutinz is offline

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I found the Lessons of Pandaria to be, don't follow jerk leaders, don't use siege weapons when there is a giant sacred statue in the way and giant monsters are sometimes easier to kill if you allow yourself to be swallowed and then punch your way back out from the inside.
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  #54  
Old 12-06-2013, 12:38 PM
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Nobody ignores "all the good things". However, not all of us think that the good things dominate on said "large spectrum".
Aside from Cataclysm, care to explain or give examples?

Specific, objective examples. Like "Cataclysm was an example of poor world cohesion because of how disjointed and inconsequential the various zones and story arcs were from each other." None of this echo chamber "I can't stand X" or "Y is so bad!" opinion fluff poisoning every forum.
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  #55  
Old 12-06-2013, 12:43 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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I'm just going to say that there's a difference between yours, Blizzard's and other fans' interpretations of Taran Zhu, which is a larger problem in their writing.

The bit about them walking away, they were doing so before addressing their grievances because Taran Zhu told them to walk away. You might also be taking the phrase walk away too literally.
Fair enough if you disagree (no real way to know for sure), but consider for a moment that we've had this entire big shindig about pride and its negative effects throughout the entire expansion. And Taran Zhu is one of the most prideful characters we've seen. Considering the importance of that thematic, and how pronounced Taran Zhu's pridefulness is, I'm perfectly willing to give the benefit of the doubt here.
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  #56  
Old 12-06-2013, 12:45 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Aside from Cataclysm, care to explain or give examples?

Specific, objective examples. Like "Cataclysm was an example of poor world cohesion because of how disjointed and inconsequential the various zones and story arcs were from each other." None of this echo chamber "I can't stand X" or "Y is so bad!" opinion fluff poisoning every forum.
But it IS opinion. Objectivity has no place in a discussion like this.

Objectively, MoP is the best story WoW has done. Personal opinion , and the fan base, slant that.
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  #57  
Old 12-06-2013, 01:14 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Fair enough if you disagree (no real way to know for sure), but consider for a moment that we've had this entire big shindig about pride and its negative effects throughout the entire expansion. And Taran Zhu is one of the most prideful characters we've seen. Considering the importance of that thematic, and how pronounced Taran Zhu's pridefulness is, I'm perfectly willing to give the benefit of the doubt here.
-You- see him as a prideful, flawed man. Blizzard at worst sees him as an isolationist that calls out the factions on their BS. Not the other way around. The player never calls him out on it despite being possessed by Hatred. Instead we help him hunt it down and watch as he yells at our factions or us for being outsiders. No one calls him out on it, so how is it a flaw compared to the Factions bringing in drama?

Even the bit about Pride doesn't seem to fly because in game most of the Pandaren are humble. At most prideful, but never in a way that attracts the Sha or seems arrogant. In the Faction stories, they're wise and humble enough to teach the Factions life lessons. The only time they're described as flawed or prideful in a bad way was in Shadows of the Horde.
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  #58  
Old 12-06-2013, 01:19 PM
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I always found myself far more interested in the creatures than in the story. For someone like me the amount of "cherries piled on top of a shit cake" has steadily increased.

That said, I do agree that the story has been lacking. We won too often and the world was left bereft of evil to scour. Give us more setbacks, I say!
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  #59  
Old 12-06-2013, 01:22 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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I always found myself far more interested in the creatures than in the story. For someone like me the amount of "cherries piled on top of a shit cake" has steadily increased.

That said, I do agree that the story has been lacking. We won too often and the world was left bereft of evil to scour. Give us more setbacks, I say!
See, outside of a few raid bosses, I've never felt like we won anything. We've saved the world, but at what cost half the time? If Blizzard continues the trend of "people we quest with die", it feels like our cast of characters gets smaller.
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  #60  
Old 12-06-2013, 01:26 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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-You- see him as a prideful, flawed man. Blizzard at worst sees him as an isolationist that calls out the factions on their BS. Not the other way around. The player never calls him out on it despite being possessed by Hatred. Instead we help him hunt it down and watch as he yells at our factions or us for being outsiders. No one calls him out on it, so how is it a flaw compared to the Factions bringing in drama?
Don't you think you're a bit too sure about what Blizzard intended for the story? Just because no one calls him out on pride, doesn't mean he wasn't intended to have any. It's especially notable in the SoO raid, as he blames his failure on the adventurer, despite previously considering him different from the rest of the faction (notably in Kun-lai and especially Isle of Thunder).

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Even the bit about Pride doesn't seem to fly because in game most of the Pandaren are humble. At most prideful, but never in a way that attracts the Sha or seems arrogant. In the Faction stories, they're wise and humble enough to teach the Factions life lessons. The only time they're described as flawed or prideful in a bad way was in Shadows of the Horde.
Yes, most pandaren are humble. However, Taran Zhu is not most pandaren. He, along with a number of the other shado-pan and golden lotus, notably stand apart from the rest of their race in their attitude.
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  #61  
Old 12-06-2013, 01:30 PM
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See, outside of a few raid bosses, I've never felt like we won anything. We've saved the world, but at what cost half the time? If Blizzard continues the trend of "people we quest with die", it feels like our cast of characters gets smaller.
It does, as do the amount of villains. That's the reason why Blizzard has to pull these stunts.
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  #62  
Old 12-06-2013, 01:54 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Don't you think you're a bit too sure about what Blizzard intended for the story? Just because no one calls him out on pride, doesn't mean he wasn't intended to have any. It's especially notable in the SoO raid, as he blames his failure on the adventurer, despite previously considering him different from the rest of the faction (notably in Kun-lai and especially Isle of Thunder).
Blizzard isn't always subtle about their storytelling, and when they try to show a message, they don't always portray correctly. Half the time they have to explain what they've shown (which sometimes means back-tracking) rather than letting the work speak for itself. You see his SoO outburst as pride, others see it as a relatable outburst after the Factions (Garrosh mostly) destroyed everything he's worked hard at protecting.

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Yes, most pandaren are humble. However, Taran Zhu is not most pandaren. He, along with a number of the other shado-pan and golden lotus, notably stand apart from the rest of their race in their attitude.
He's not that prideful in Shadows of the Horde. He's actually pretty humble and patient. You see the others as being arrogant, while Blizzard and the fans that love and hate them see them as wise Pandaren trying to educate us on life.
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  #63  
Old 12-06-2013, 02:05 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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You keep trying to invoke that your version is what blizzard is trying to tell us. Am I missing some twitter post here, or something, or are we just assuming away because 'blizzard can't do subtle'?



Also, I'm not saying it's not understandable to blame the factions from Zhu's perspective. However, in this case, he's raging at the players, who he treated in Kun-lai and Thundering Isle as trustees, possibly even friends. From what I see in-game, Zhu is shifting back into the same isolationism that Shaohao embodied when he created the mists.
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  #64  
Old 12-06-2013, 02:23 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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You keep trying to invoke that your version is what blizzard is trying to tell us. Am I missing some twitter post here, or something, or are we just assuming away because 'blizzard can't do subtle'?
I'll use Garrosh as an example. We were told that he would be someone the Horde can care about, which depending on the player Blizzard either succeded or failed with in Cata. Then there's Theramore which Golden and Baine demonized his character, until Kosak tried to "justify" his actions. Then throughout MoP, they've tried to explain how he was always bad and how they've always intended him to be bad, despite the fact that in the beginning of 5.1, and even in SoO, he's still portrayed as this man who cares about his people and will help anyone who stands with him, until he starts to treat everyone as disposable.
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  #65  
Old 12-06-2013, 02:28 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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I'll use Garrosh as an example. We were told that he would be someone the Horde can care about, which depending on the player Blizzard either succeded or failed with in Cata. Then there's Theramore which Golden and Baine demonized his character, until Kosak tried to "justify" his actions. Then throughout MoP, they've tried to explain how he was always bad and how they've always intended him to be bad, despite the fact that in the beginning of 5.1, and even in SoO, he's still portrayed as this man who cares about his people and will help anyone who stands with him, until he starts to treat everyone as disposable.
Okay, I'll give you that Garrosh was about as consistent as the flesh of a half-rotten corpse. But that ain't mean that every single example of blizzard actually trying to insert some story themes wuz gonna fail.
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  #66  
Old 12-06-2013, 02:42 PM
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Also, I'm not saying it's not understandable to blame the factions from Zhu's perspective. However, in this case, he's raging at the players, who he treated in Kun-lai and Thundering Isle as trustees, possibly even friends. From what I see in-game, Zhu is shifting back into the same isolationism that Shaohao embodied when he created the mists.
Less than a problem of Taran Zhu though, that really feels kind of like one of those symptoms of the player basically being a stand-in for every stripe of adventurer, which not infrequently calls for contradictory behavior on our part that doesn't really fit with the idea that one single character or group with the same priorities and beliefs is fulfilling every quest, raid, BG scenario and dungeon.

One moment we're the pragmatic hero who earns Taran Zhu's trust by going straight to work righting wrongs and quelling Sha, the next we're the factional champion who arguably makes things worse every time someone in our faction's tabard offers us a treat and never misses a chance to spill blood for the Red or Blue regardless of the collateral harm it causes or whether it actually aids in (or even detracts from) the pursuit of our primary reasons for being there.

It's arguably a necessary evil given WoW's storytelling methodology, though I'd honestly like it if maybe we had some more "implied choice" mechanics in the future like with the Isle of Thunder, where we got to decide if we were there to remain on task and defeat Lei Shen, or if we were more interested in pursuing the opportunity for vengeance against the other faction.

Still, it reminds me of how the blatant tease of Jaina asking what my character thought - only for it to mean absolutely nothing in regards to the nature of my involvement in the purging of Dalaran - left a bitter taste for me, as it was a clumsy reminder that even though it makes no sense in the context of my other deeds, I'm supposed to be an unquestioning factional warmonger at the drop of the hat when it's convenient for me to be so. The question starts a quest chain acting like we're the "wise hero" stand-in whose opinion matters to the protagonists, then switches within the same chain into being the nationalist hero who just follows orders and doesn't have anything to say about it. If they were going to change tack like that in mid-narration, I'd have preferred that she hadn't even asked than suggest my answer meant anything.

In other words, even though the characterization of the "hero of the Alliance/Horde" who's running around on their faction's dime is frequently incompatible with the being the "hero of Azeroth" who's pragmatically worked with anyone and everyone whose aid is conducive to the security of the world at large, both are nonetheless crammed into our single player character, which often results in NPC's addressing us as in one encounter as if we're a different person with a different relationship to them from when they addressed us in a prior encounter.

Last edited by ARM3481; 12-06-2013 at 02:45 PM..
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  #67  
Old 12-06-2013, 02:44 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Okay, I'll give you that Garrosh was about as consistent as the flesh of a half-rotten corpse. But that ain't mean that every single example of blizzard actually trying to insert some story themes wuz gonna fail.
Malfurion fails at the idea of being one with nature.

Tirion (if you're Alliance at least) fails at the idea of honor and being a Paladin, while both he and Velen fail at the idea of unity.

Most Shaman fail at the idea of being in harmony with the elements.

Orcs horribly failed at redemption.

Forsaken failed at being different than the Scourge, and if they did, they might be worse.

Trolls, idk their story, but if it's being either less or more savage than the other Trolls, then I feel that they failed too.

Ji failed to live up to his philosophy (though I blame Blizzard for ignoring him).

Crowley failed at being a patriot for Gilneas.

Mekkatorque fails at either looking forward with Gnome soceity or fails at reclaiming lost land (not sure that's a story theme).

Not sure if Lorthemar fails at making his people stronger than before.

Baine fails at forgiveness.

Jaina fails at controlling her anger and diplomacy.

Thrall horribly failed at bringing peace and a new life to the Orcs.
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  #68  
Old 12-06-2013, 03:21 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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You make a persuasive point. Still giving the benefit of the doubt though, because it does actually enhance the story.
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  #69  
Old 12-06-2013, 03:22 PM
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Orcs horribly failed at redemption.
People all too frequently seem to completely misunderstand how the orcs or Thrall understood their redemption.

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Thrall horribly failed at bringing peace and a new life to the Orcs.
There were some complications.
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Old 12-06-2013, 04:15 PM
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People all too frequently seem to completely misunderstand how the orcs or Thrall understood their redemption.
Then perhaps Blizz did a poor job of telling and showing us just what the redemption exactly was.
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  #71  
Old 12-06-2013, 04:16 PM
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Then perhaps Blizz did a poor job of telling and showing us just what the redemption exactly was.
It is the paladin resurrection spell.

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  #72  
Old 12-06-2013, 04:23 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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People all too frequently seem to completely misunderstand how the orcs or Thrall understood their redemption.

There were some complications.
So then explain it to me, because I'm tired of you waving that phrase around and patronizing people. Every Orc has their own idea of what redemption is along with honor, and no, people who don't misunderstand do so because we're humans or Alliance fans.
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  #73  
Old 12-06-2013, 04:43 PM
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The problem with Gnomes is there relevance to most of the stories taking place are almost null due to there background. Maybe in a Titan expansion they could do something but they need to be shoehorned into a story like the Blood Elves in Pandaria where they can be fleshed out. They are a comedic race that can easily be serious to like the Goblins and badass Gnomes can be made via the use of tech or even magic.

Same with the Worgen they can easily become the Alliance's stealth orientated faction that would get them involved in many storylines easily outside of there story with the Forsaken.
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Old 12-06-2013, 04:49 PM
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So, I kinda want Stormwind to incorporate gnomish tech and become a steam run city of the future.
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Old 12-06-2013, 06:59 PM
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Then perhaps Blizz did a poor job of telling and showing us just what the redemption exactly was.
They tell you in Lord of the Clans and show you in Warcraft 3.

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So then explain it to me, because I'm tired of you waving that phrase around and patronizing people.
What phrase have I waved around?

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Every Orc has their own idea of what redemption is along with honor, and no, people who don't misunderstand do so because we're humans or Alliance fans.
I'm not accusing of you of that, so how about the decency of not shoving words down my throat like a disgruntled Fojar? Thanks. Even many Horde fans often misunderstand the redemption of the orcs. People tend to interpret the orcs redeeming themselves with a set of expectations that their redemption requires that they become apologetic, peaceful, "green humans," social justice warriors, or that they play nice with the Alliance, etc, but this frames their redemption in terms of what non-orcs expect from orcs and not what orcs expect from themselves. The orcs do not need to be redeemed from or by the Alliance; the orcs do not have a debt that needs to be repaid to them. If anything, their debt is likely owed to the spirits of their ancestors. The return of their ancestors' blessing is probably the true litmus test that the orcs have reached an acceptable level of cultural redemption.

Redemption, for Thrall and the orcs, was about throwing off the shackles of their effective enslavement to the Burning Legion, restoring their shamanistic culture, and living as they see fit through their self-sovereignty as a people free from the Alliance, the Burning Legion, or whoever else threatens their well-being as a free people. There was nothing about orc redemption that involved being apologetic to the Alliance, playing nice with other races, or an aversion to glory in combat and conquest. It was always redemption for the orcs' own sake.
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