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  #26  
Old 12-16-2013, 05:55 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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I think the orcish story can be good. The "demons made them do it" was always a cop out in Warcraft III and creates an odd detachment from the prior two games in the series. Even if the orcs caused destruction and were bad they can still bounce back now and still have heroes even in the darkest times. Look at WWII Germany and how well they recovered.

This can still be compelling. Thrall was told a white washed history from the orcs. He truly believed the orcs were always a noble and honorable race and that is was the demons that made them do it. That the Alliance unfairly judged his people and kept them down out of spite and bigotry. Thrall does not know all the events in the story and he was born into enslavement and saw the worst side of humanity. From his perspective this all made sense. Those who don't learn or don't know history are doomed to repeat it. Grom Hellscream was a victim of the blood haze and all he had to do was kill Mannoroth and the orcs could go back to their noble heritage.

Thrall went on believing this. He developed a messiah complex. He saved the tauren and the darkspear because he saw what he wanted to see within his own people. A tribal and shamanistic race. In their case though it was true. Across the ocean he saw other victims of Alliance "persecution" in the forsaken. He was blinded by his preconceived notions of the Alliance and felt, just like the orcs, that the Alliance misunderstood them. He is either an idealist or a shrewd opportunist since the Alliance was pretty much in shambles. He does this with the blood elves later to.

He goes on this quest to Outland to find out the uncorrupted orcs. The ones that are this noble heritage he is trying to reclaim. He even finds Grom Hellscream's son, uncorrupted. Who is completely ashamed of his father. After tell Garrosh the romanticize version of his father he is filled with confidence. Thrall wants to see Garrosh be what Grom could of been without the blood haze. He puts him in charge of the Northrend offensive in order to groom him to be a commander of the Horde.

It turns out that Garrosh is brutal and ruthless. He is just like his father but he never drank the blood of Mannoroth. All the Maghar are. They don't fight anyone with any sort of honor. They don't need the demon blood to be bad. They all strive to be just like the heroes of the Old Horde. Having Garrosh be the one to repeat the mistakes of his father is the personification of Thrall's own misunderstanding of what Grom was and what his people are. Thrall was misinformed.

The other races in the Horde were in it because they were desperate. Thrall was pretty much handed a very powerful force. He offered a helping hand to anyone who would ask. All the Horde races either had to work together or be destroyed. If the orcs became a burden instead of a blessing than they will not have it so they rebelled. Seeing the warlocks hung up in Orgrimmar was a big sign that it wasn't the demons that made them do anything. You can't blame all your personal failings on something external like that. Garrosh tried to.

Garrosh was Thrall's fault. Thrall told him a false narrative and gave him too much power. This would of never happened if Thrall didn't misunderstand his own people. In WoD we are going to learn that most of the orcish heroes were actually bad. There was never was this noble heritage. Even if they didn't drink the demon blood they will still try to slaughter the draenei and the recalcitrant orcish clans. We are using an alternate reality to accomplish this kind of introspection and narrative.

I think the orcs can still be reformed because we have seen the potential for goodness in the race. Thrall, Saurfang, and the frost wolves. The orcish clans that were destroyed. It just is completely their fault. They need to learn to take personal responsibility for all their mistakes. Stop blaming the demons and the Alliance.

I think the orcish story can still be good. I wish there was more diversity with in the forsaken though. They are just comical evil and there is almost no sign of any sort of good. I don't understand why undeath did this to them or why Runetotem believes he can redeem him. It makes it seem like Runetotem has more sympathy for the murderers than he does their victims. I think the idea that they use to be humans grants legitimacy to that case and I would like to see more of that light in the darkness. Other wise it just makes the Horde look wholly incompetent. I don't want to believe that their state of undeath is the death of their previous lives. That, just like the worgen, that their sanity can be restored. It doesn't have to be right away but I would like to see more hints.
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  #27  
Old 12-16-2013, 05:59 PM
Frostwolf Frostwolf is offline

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Originally Posted by Pajamasalad View Post
Across the ocean he saw other victims of Alliance "persecution" in the forsaken. He was blinded by his preconceived notions of the Alliance and felt, just like the orcs, that the Alliance misunderstood them.
Wrong. It was Hamuul who convinced him to let the Forsaken join because of "redemption."
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  #28  
Old 12-16-2013, 06:01 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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Originally Posted by cosmictimelion View Post
Wrong. It was Hamuul who convinced him to let the Forsaken join because of "redemption."
And only one person ever actually tried to follow up on it. More of why I feel the reasoning for the Horde is shallow, and bad for its story long as it's swallowed up unthinkingly by everyone in-universe.
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Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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  #29  
Old 12-16-2013, 06:02 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Wrong. It was Hamuul who convinced him to let the Forsaken join because of "redemption."
Wasn't he able to guilt him into it though because of that? That just makes it sound worse. Why has Hamual have more sympathy to the forsaken than he does their victims?
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  #30  
Old 12-16-2013, 06:02 PM
Xilizhra Xilizhra is offline

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Garrosh was Thrall's fault. Thrall told him a false narrative and gave him too much power. This would of never happened if Thrall didn't misunderstand his own people. In WoD we are going to learn that most of the orcish heroes were actually bad. There was never was this noble heritage. Even if they didn't drink the demon blood they will still try to slaughter the draenei and the recalcitrant orcish clans. We are using an alternate reality to accomplish this kind of introspection and narrative.
Two of the biggest heroes of the Horde are Durotan, who's good in this timeline too, and Doomhammer, who may very well turn out to be (he's not confirmed as evil yet, at least). Only Grom really has a dark spot of the most widely revered three, and I don't know how much of a surprise it'll come as.
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  #31  
Old 12-16-2013, 06:03 PM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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Originally Posted by Pajamasalad View Post
Wasn't he able to guilt him into it though because of that? That just makes it sound worse. Why has Hamual have more sympathy to the forsaken than he does their victims?
Simple. He doesn't know about them or the Forsaken are so good at convincing him that they got attacked first.
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  #32  
Old 12-16-2013, 06:09 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Thrall finding out that the orcs had always been a cruel, aggressive culture might have been a really interesting plot line in Burning Crusade. Unfortunately, I think Blizzard waited too long to put it into action.
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  #33  
Old 12-16-2013, 06:17 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Originally Posted by destron View Post
Thrall finding out that the orcs had always been a cruel, aggressive culture might have been a really interesting plot line in Burning Crusade. Unfortunately, I think Blizzard waited too long to put it into action.
Well the implication was always there. Grom kept screwing up and before he died he said "I have freed myself." The Warsong Clan was doing bad things in Ashenvale and in the comics. I am just trying to be optimistic and make sense of the narrative!
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  #34  
Old 12-16-2013, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Millenia View Post
Yes, that's very much true. But the question is ultimately made moot when the sons do the exact same thing as the fathers, and then the narrative contorts into a moebius strip of bullshit in which the Horde is simultaneously shown as bad while being touted as good on both sides of the narrative.
Internal debate.

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No, but every single other time afterwards means it does.
Oh, really?

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Darkspear were only ever attacked by a kingdom turned into cannon fodder, and by some naga. Again, hardly the whole world.
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The tauren have no reason to believe that at all. Quilboar and centaur and harpies do not the entire world make... doubly so since they become mere pests partway through WC3.
But their population was driven down significantly by the centaur prior to the arrival of the Horde, which is the point. For both, you are taking my statement about "the world" a little too far and literally, don't you think?

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Neither do the blood elves, since at worst the Alliance was looking at them weirdly for some reason (that is speculated to be related to their king allying with the Burning Legion, but will never be confirmed), and then spying (which everyone ever has done, even back in WC1). High elves weren't even a factor beyond the brief window between the time they said 'no' and the moment Lor'themar told them to GTFO of Quel'thalas.
At worst the Alliance imprisoned the blood elves for death as "traitors."

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The Forsaken would have had honestly grey moment with killing Garithos, if betrayal wasn't planned from the start. Everything afterwards just devolves into kicking kindergarteners to death on the off-chance they might call you stinky.
You should read through the official racial page on the Forsaken. It supports the "holy shit, the world wants to kill us for simply being undead" mentality.

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That's understandable enough, but the other portions of the narrative don't really jive up to it. The Alliance struggles to even remember that the Horde is supposed to be their enemy, even when circumstances (between Wolfheart and Ashenvale questing, ToW, anything involving the Forsaken) demand that they should.
How is the Alliance's memory loss a problem of the Horde?

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I mean, c'mon, it's like feeling persecuted by a homeless man who tries to kick you every time you get near his box. Stay away from his box, bro, and you'll be fine. Even if the guy sometimes wanders around.
Homeless man? Have you looked at the swaths of territory that the Alliance effectively controls amongst its various races or in its historic boundaries? Northern Kalimdor, Khaz Modan, and Azeroth? Compared with the Horde's Central Kalimdor and half of Lordaeron/Quel'thalas?
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  #35  
Old 12-16-2013, 07:03 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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You should read through the official racial page on the Forsaken. It supports the "holy shit, the world wants to kill us for simply being undead" mentality.
Something that has not once ever been demonstrated outside that fucking page.

That racial page is literally incompatible with almost the entirety of the Forsaken storyline.
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  #36  
Old 12-16-2013, 07:07 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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Originally Posted by Millenia View Post
Darkspear were only ever attacked by a kingdom turned into cannon fodder, and by some naga. Again, hardly the whole world.
The Darkspear tribe were attacked by Kul Tiras on two occasions, both times Kul Tiras was gunning for them in particular and the Darkspear lost plenty of people to them.

Yet another reason, why them going temporarily neutral in the Rise of the Zandalari patch was stupid.
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  #37  
Old 12-16-2013, 07:35 PM
Jaelara Jaelara is offline

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The Horde's biggest problem is that CDev wants to write them both as conquering badasses who live for battle and take no prisoners, and as good guys.

While it MIGHT be possible for a skilled writer to accomplish both, CDevs writers are NOT skilled enough to pull it off.

So basically you got the Horde constantly committing horrible crimes while everyone claims that somehow they're the good guys and the Alliance is wrong to feel so much as slightly miffed over, say the destruction of Southshore, the firebombing of Astranaar, or the complete destruction of Theramore.
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  #38  
Old 12-16-2013, 07:44 PM
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Going to go through this bullet-by-bullet point because bullet points in lore presentations rock and I want to join in on the story jam here


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Originally Posted by JorgeAxe View Post
* They're always getting demonized.
Not necessarily. I disagree. A lot of how the Horde is represented is from the perspective of noble savages. Beastly races with their own unique failings trying to carve a future for themselves without the Alliance's collective morality. The code of ethics that orcs turn to is their honor, the tauren go to their ancestors et cetera. If you play the Horde you're not really being presented as a demonic entity reaping carnage upon the world (with a few specific exceptions i.e. the Forsaken), you're a heroic renegade trying to do best by the world as you understand it. A good example of this point is what happened at the end of the Stonetalon Mountains questline. Here you have this General, appointed by Garrosh himself, who accomplishes his mandate of conquering the land through acts of wanton barbarism, but even Garrosh Hellscream said no. That wasn't what the Horde is. The Horde shouldn't be dishonorable, which coming from that Warchief is a pretty firm statement on what the Horde is at its best. So no I don't agree with that characterization of the Horde.

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Originally Posted by JorgeAxe View Post
* Aside from a few instances with the dwarves, they have no reason to fight the Alliance.
Going to go through this race-by-race:
  • Orcs: Plenty of reason to fight the Alliance. Reason might be the wrong word, its more emotion. The humans are ultimately the worthy adversary that the orcs were looking for, even if they might not want to admit it. They were the guys who crushed their armies, imprisoned their people and humiliated them at every opportunity that they were able. The feelings of resentment against the humans and by proxy the Alliance is surely justification enough for wanting to fight the Alliance. I don't think reciting the whole history of the First and Second Wars is necessary for proving the point of the orcs having longstanding problems against the Alliance.
  • Trolls: The reason for the Darkspear trolls fighting the Alliance is largely the result of Vol'jin's interactions with Thrall. The Son of Durotan helped save their tribe from extinction through his intervention against the sea witch. Vol'jin owes Thrall a debt, Vol'jin honors his promises so for better or worse the Darkspear will be a part of the Horde. Now you see the Darkspear start to question this relationship in Mists of Pandaria, but even after deciding that Garrosh was ultimately a bad guy they still didn't decide to declare indepedence during their rebellion. They could have tried surviving on their own or throwing their lot in with the Zandalari coalition, but the trolls decided that Horde is family and they want to protect it from those that threaten it. But they still have been shown to have a working relationship with the Alliance whenever possible, as can be seen in the Zul'Aman and Zul'Gurub campaigns against the Amani.
  • Tauren: Well for the most part they don't want to fight the Alliance, especially under Baine. Other than, as you mentioned, the actions of the Explorers League in excavating tauren territory (which incidentally I do believe was justified by the interests of archaelogy and discovery while the RPG books represent a much less antagonistic dispute than how it was portrayed in the game) and the looming threat of an expanding Alliance in the Barrens, the tauren would largely prefer it if everyone just got along. They're a nomadic people, they have no more hatred for the Alliance than they would for the Horde if any of their races had wronged them. I don't believe that kind of common humanistic perspective is a bad thing to have inside the Horde.
  • Forsaken: The reasons for the Forsaken fighting the Alliance aren't honorable or just, but they still have their reasons. Sylvanas Windrunner is a sociopathic dictator without the capacity for empathy and all the horrible fears and paranoias that comes from having undergone a traumatic incident (in her case what was done to her by Arthas) with the means of controlling a state, then of course you are going to see expansion and aggression and death against any convenient target. They've gone to war with the Alliance, they've gone to war with independents and would go to war against the Horde had Thrall not securely their "partnership" when he did. So being a part of the Horde gives the Forsaken the excuse for exacting their perverted cruelties upon innocents while being protected under the blanket of we're doing this because we have to.
  • Blood Elves: I think its right that you bring up that their race doesn't really have a pretty good reason to be at arms with the Alliance. About the most serious casus belli against the Alliance that was ever shown in Eversong Woods was this one ambassador who was acting a bit shady. Then when you consider what the draenei did for their people by restoring the Sunwell and saving their race from the designs of the Burning Legion, you aren't really presented a hostile picture between the blood elves and the Alliance races. But the compensation for this is that you start to see the blood elves questioning wether they should even be in the Horde, nevermind their reasons for fighting the Alliance. They feel disillusioned with their allies and are ultimately a race that will consider its own needs and wants over any other, regardless of faction.
  • Goblins: The Bilgewater are in the Horde because they didn't really have any other choice. It was either sign up with the Horde and make its enemies their enemies, or be enslaved by Trade Baron Gallywix or die under lava at Kezan. They're refugees and they had no other place to turn to. And I would point out that the Bilgewater have been nothing but prosperous after signing up for to the Warchief's armies, they've got a new lands to call their own and many member-races that greatly want their unique assistance in solving problems, while making a profit all the while. They want to be in the Horde.


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Originally Posted by JorgeAxe View Post
* Then going through an eternal redemption cycle which Warcraft III already covered.
Skipping this one because I forgot about it and can think of nothing to say about this, but I think that internal struggle inside the Horde for self-realization is something longstanding and fundamental and a problem that couldn't possibly be resolved in part of a single game's campaign.
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Originally Posted by JorgeAxe View Post
* Massive scale problems with the Darkspear tribe and now the orcs.
Can you specify? I don't know what to say to general points.
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* Gallywix and Sylavanas being totally terrible and the former's appointment making no sense.
Gallywix and Sylvanas are pretty terrible people, yes. But they're still there. They're still part of the Horde. They're still characters that you'll have to interact with, even if you don't like them as people. And the reason that Gallywix was appointed was largely due to political expediency on the part of Thrall. He might have liked what he seen in the Bilgewater goblins, but he still had more important things on his mind then. He was on a quest to the heart of the ocean to heal the world against the Destroyer. He wasn't and shouldn't have felt terribly involved in the inter-politics of a lone goblin cartel, he was leaving the decision largely up to the goblins themselves and they seem to have reconciled themselves with the idea of being represented by the great Gallywix.

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Originally Posted by JorgeAxe View Post
* Despite being demonized, they aren't allowed to keep old heroes. They spend much of the time killing their own faction and heroes.
The second part of that first sentence is true but its largely the same case with what could be considered Alliance heroes. There's more than a few instances of contemporary Alliance characters being pitted against others that previously considered themselves part of the same faction (i.e. Arthas, Van Cleef, Kael'thas, Proudmoore etc). The fact that this phenomena of former heroes falling from grace being more pronounced in the Horde is largely what you would expect from a faction that (generally speaking) has more problems with dealing their own conflicted natures.
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Originally Posted by JorgeAxe View Post
* Baine getting turned into tauren who was willing to fight if pushed into a spineless tauren stereotype.
I think you're misunderstanding the ethos of the tauren. They're not cruel. They don't believe justice should be punitive. They believe in doing what is right like protecting the tribe and maintaining family, but they don't want to lose themselves pursuing vengeance and conflict. Baine is a good avatar of this mantra, even if he might not have the nostalgic appeal of his father Baine. I think you have either a wrong expectation of who the tauren are or a negative personal reaction towards forms of pacifism.
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** New Bad Fanfic Baine: "An entire Tauren tribe gets wiped out and wants to fight the Alliance, exile them." "Lets try to appease the quilboar who've been butchering my people for generations, I'm sure they'll listen this time."
The quilboar haven't been butchering the tauren anymore than the kobolds have been terrorizing the Northshire. They're violent, largely unintelligent and very territorial, but you're presenting their threat as some kind of existential danger that Baine personally let go unopposed when the history of the matter is that Baine went in to their home and flushed them out. He wasn't appeasing them when he was crushing quilboar skulls with Sunwalker assistance. I think you should consider rereading the Baine short-story if you haven't done so and reconsider your reaction.
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Originally Posted by JorgeAxe View Post
* Garrosh's entire story and constant character derailment.
I always thought that Garrosh, and you can take me up on this if you think I'm wrong, was always intended to be a foil to Thrall. The exact specifics of how these two characters would clash and differ might not having been entirely laid out when his character was elevated in the Northrend expansion, but their relationship was always going to end one way. Thrall would try as best he could to do right by his Grom and see that his son became half the orc that he considered his friend to be, while Garrosh with his impetuousness and lust for violence was always going to ultimately turn those energies against his own people when they failed to live up to his expectations. At the risk of invoking Godwin's Law in an otherwise perfectly great discussion, its like Hitler in the last days of World War II who would rather see Germany dismantled brick-by-brick by its enemies for the shame of not accomplishing his delusions.

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Originally Posted by JorgeAxe View Post
There's much, much more but you get the idea.
The Horde and Alliance walk into a bar. The Alliance knight declares to all present: "With great haste, hand me a flagon of your finest swill, dear barkeep!" Meanwhile, the Horde guy is already drunk, pissing into the corner while whisting and then shaking down the local patrons for their money. This is what their grand relationship boils down to.

Last edited by Shaman; 12-16-2013 at 08:04 PM.. Reason: meet me at the barrens and say that 2 my face u little punk
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  #39  
Old 12-16-2013, 08:20 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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Another thing I don't like is the Horde never really having much of a debate about certain things. Just all of a sudden the Darkspear are Coke Lite. Just all of a sudden the entire Horde is a family.

And no, Garrosh doesn't count as much of a debate for anything after becoming the villain.

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Oh, really?
Yes, really.

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But their population was driven down significantly by the centaur prior to the arrival of the Horde, which is the point. For both, you are taking my statement about "the world" a little too far and literally, don't you think?
Sometimes hyperbole needs to be called out.

Oh, and I forgot to mention the goblins. They were merely at the wrong place at the wrong time.

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At worst the Alliance imprisoned the blood elves for death as "traitors."
Gariwho?

Even then that doesn't count as trying to kill the race.

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You should read through the official racial page on the Forsaken. It supports the "holy shit, the world wants to kill us for simply being undead" mentality.
The page refers to the Scarlet Crusade. Never once has the Alliance taken the initiative in attacking the undead.

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How is the Alliance's memory loss a problem of the Horde?
Because it undermines the Horde's persecution complex when the Alliance is too mentally damaged to even remember they're supposed to dislike the Horde? What claims does the Horde have then?

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Homeless man? Have you looked at the swaths of territory that the Alliance effectively controls amongst its various races or in its historic boundaries? Northern Kalimdor, Khaz Modan, and Azeroth? Compared with the Horde's Central Kalimdor and half of Lordaeron/Quel'thalas?
I am no good at metaphors. But the point is that if the Horde left the Alliance alone, the Alliance would leave the Horde alone except for the forces necessary to suddenly become racist and evil about the Horde's evildoing so Blizzard can sate its bloodlust.
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The Alliance's three rules on faction conflict:
1) You can't win.
2) You can't break even.
3) You can't leave the game.

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Originally Posted by Mustrum View Post
Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.

Last edited by Millenia; 12-16-2013 at 08:22 PM..
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  #40  
Old 12-16-2013, 08:25 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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The problem with the Horde story is that it constantly asks me to accept stupid bullshit and treats me like an idiot.
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  #41  
Old 12-16-2013, 08:54 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Originally Posted by Pajamasalad View Post
Well the implication was always there. Grom kept screwing up and before he died he said "I have freed myself." The Warsong Clan was doing bad things in Ashenvale and in the comics. I am just trying to be optimistic and make sense of the narrative!
Oh, sure, the implication was always there. I usually interpreted the Mag'har as being a lot more brutal than the Horde orcs expected to find. I just think it would have been more effective if they'd done this story earlier.
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  #42  
Old 12-16-2013, 08:58 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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never seen any sign of the races of the horde growing closer together.

Rarely see trolls and orcs and tauren as buddies in horde towns.

Rarer still to see them talk to other races.
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Old 12-16-2013, 09:04 PM
Eagan Eagan is offline

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Originally Posted by Sarahmoo View Post
[*]Orcs: Plenty of reason to fight the Alliance. Reason might be the wrong word, its more emotion. The humans are ultimately the worthy adversary that the orcs were looking for, even if they might not want to admit it. They were the guys who crushed their armies, imprisoned their people and humiliated them at every opportunity that they were able. The feelings of resentment against the humans and by proxy the Alliance is surely justification enough for wanting to fight the Alliance. I don't think reciting the whole history of the First and Second Wars is necessary for proving the point of the orcs having longstanding problems against the Alliance.
This is a problem. "Humiliated them at every opportunity they were able", I wonder why they did that? Presumably it was because their world was invaded, their lands ravaged and one of their cities destroyed? How the hell can the Orcs resent the Humans? I mean, emotion isn't logical, so of course some Orcs will inevitably resent the humans. But the majority of the Horde, especially the new shamanistic element, should be introspective and realise that the Humans did what they had to do because they were being killed by invading space aliens. That humans have reasons to resent tolerating Orcs, but, fundamentally, Orcs have no real and concrete reason to resent humans.
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Old 12-16-2013, 09:14 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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The quilboar haven't been butchering the tauren anymore than the kobolds have been terrorizing the Northshire. They're violent, largely unintelligent and very territorial, but you're presenting their threat as some kind of existential danger that Baine personally let go unopposed when the history of the matter is that Baine went in to their home and flushed them out. He wasn't appeasing them when he was crushing quilboar skulls with Sunwalker assistance. I think you should consider rereading the Baine short-story if you haven't done so and reconsider your reaction.
You are literally one of the only people to have that view of the Baine story.

I think you have too much of a stomach for hippy bullshit.

The Quillboar murdered Baine's ambassadors and his reaction was basically "oh... -darn-"
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Old 12-16-2013, 09:27 PM
Reignac Reignac is offline

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The total 180 on development for the orcs is really stupid. Though to be fair that started back in Wrath, not MoP.
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You know, when I put the "i hate all of you" tag in threads, I'm not trying to be funny or cute. With a handful of exceptions, I really do hate almost everybody here.

It's one thing to have problems and voice your concerns, but when you endlessly bitch day in and day out about the same tired old shit, it honestly makes me wonder why you are even here. Generally when somebody doesn't like something, they stop caring about it.

And on that note, SoL is a forum I no longer enjoy. So, I'm done here. And I genuinely think the people who have absolutely nothing at all positive to say about the game and, the people whose posts are composed entirely of whining, really consider leaving (or at least sticking to non-WoW sections). Because if you truly get no enjoyment out of WoW, then why are you here?

With that said, goodbye.
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Old 12-16-2013, 09:56 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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The total 180 on development for the orcs is really stupid. Though to be fair that started back in Wrath, not MoP.
It started in Vanilla.
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  #47  
Old 12-16-2013, 11:33 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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  #48  
Old 12-17-2013, 12:10 AM
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The Horde's biggest problem is that CDev wants to write them both as conquering badasses who live for battle and take no prisoners, and as good guys.

While it MIGHT be possible for a skilled writer to accomplish both, CDevs writers are NOT skilled enough to pull it off.

So basically you got the Horde constantly committing horrible crimes while everyone claims that somehow they're the good guys and the Alliance is wrong to feel so much as slightly miffed over, say the destruction of Southshore, the firebombing of Astranaar, or the complete destruction of Theramore.
Are you familiar with the charr of Guild Wars 2? Their culture is more akin to what I imagine the orcs should have been like, though we may see some of that with the Iron Horde. The charr overthrow their priestly-magical class and their titan gods and have since refused to follow gods out of a fear of becoming weak in their dependency. Having faith in only themselves and their steel, they are responsible for the world's industrial revolution, with much of that devoted to arming their industrial war machine. They believe in victory at all costs, with their sense of honor pertaining mostly to the loyalty of their warband and legion as opposed to any chivalric or tribal sense of honor. They are not remorseful for their atrocities that they committed, because they felt that it was their land to reclaim and what matters is that they won. Despite this, the contemporary charr are not considered villains, but have entered into an uneasy truce with humanity, despite being at war with all humanity for +250 years.
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Old 12-17-2013, 02:50 AM
Xilizhra Xilizhra is offline

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First, it's an alternate universe. Second, Doomhammer was driven by resource issues and the fact that diplomacy with humans would be impossible. Third, I almost guarantee that much of the Iron Horde won't be all that villainous and will be swept into the main Horde to replenish its losses from the last expansion. Finally, this is still after the ancestors supposedly told the orcs that the draenei were plotting to wipe them out, Garrosh just took the war in a different direction.
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Old 12-17-2013, 03:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
Are you familiar with the charr of Guild Wars 2? Their culture is more akin to what I imagine the orcs should have been like, though we may see some of that with the Iron Horde. The charr overthrow their priestly-magical class and their titan gods and have since refused to follow gods out of a fear of becoming weak in their dependency. Having faith in only themselves and their steel, they are responsible for the world's industrial revolution, with much of that devoted to arming their industrial war machine. They believe in victory at all costs, with their sense of honor pertaining mostly to the loyalty of their warband and legion as opposed to any chivalric or tribal sense of honor. They are not remorseful for their atrocities that they committed, because they felt that it was their land to reclaim and what matters is that they won. Despite this, the contemporary charr are not considered villains, but have entered into an uneasy truce with humanity, despite being at war with all humanity for +250 years.
Charr were wonderfully handled and developed, very much agree.
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