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View Poll Results: How will the future of the human race be?
The future will be great! 4 13.79%
Future will be good. 5 17.24%
About as good as now. 13 44.83%
Worse than now. 3 10.34%
There is no future. 4 13.79%
Voters: 29. You may not vote on this poll

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  #251  
Old 01-31-2015, 06:01 PM
Ragnahar Ragnahar is offline

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Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
Did you read the entire article? Dust bowls only exist because of our monoculture treatment of prairies across the continent, which are further exascerbated by drought conditions now (brought on by climate warming, which has been exascerbated by us).
I read the article, and the first paragraph says exactly the opposite of the sentence you linked it in.
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  #252  
Old 01-31-2015, 06:10 PM
miffy23 miffy23 is offline

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Originally Posted by HlaaluStyle View Post
No need to apologize. I'm in here totally of my own volition.

And I probably don't know more (or at least not much more) than you. I've forgotten/stopped giving a shit about global economics, by and large.

But in fairness to miffy, there have been terrible abuses, so I wouldn't go so far as to say that the system is wonderful—merely that it's the least harmful practical option. On the aggregate level, however, globalization has led to overall poverty reduction (though in some cases it exacerbates inequality within countries).

I don't consider RBE effective for the reasons that Kynrind outlined.
So you propose everything should stay the way it is?
Those terrible abuses you mention are systemic, they are inherent to the nature of the environment we foster. Our economy rewards greed, inhumane and detached. The livelihoods and sustenance of entire populations are shoved back forth across tables on the stock exchange in a perverse, insane game of literal life and death, in the name of numbers on a sheet somewhere.

The idealistic concept of the good capitalistic competitive environment that nurturs progress and averages out in everyone's benefit has been so far gone for so long, is so lopsided in it's real world application, that it has become a veritable living and breathing dystopia.

It is because at it's very core, the notion of needing to maintain control of a scarce resource is one of survival of the fittest, in a perverse sense. Throughout history when we weren't able to actually produce an abundance or sustain our resources, capitalism served it's purpose by motivating a more-or-less efficient use of resources. Yet now, we are at a point in time where scarcity is no longer something we need deal with - except to create profit. The economy today works in two ways: profits based on real scarcity (oil, gas, natural resources) and fabricated scarcity through suggested demand (marketing, media). Neither kind is rooted in reality. We need not be dependant on oil or gas anymore, we need not "feed the economy" by buying one useless, irrelevant product after the other.

Capitalism has not only become outdated and outgrown by our technological capacities, it has become a real danger to our continued development.

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Originally Posted by Ragnahar View Post
I read the article, and the first paragraph says exactly the opposite of the sentence you linked it in.
Errr no?
Yes, we know more about treating soil well. That doesn't change the fact that companies like Monsanto have killed vast stretches of formerly useful prairie land with monocultures, thus creating the basis for these dust bowls.

Any capable ecologist will quickly and easily explain to you how monocultures in agriculture are death to the soil you plant on, and rapidly destroy biological diversity, as well as dramatically shifting the climate conditions of the area.

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Originally Posted by Pajamasalad View Post
I know there have been terrible abuses. I just don't think a RBE would be without abuses or any other type of system. I am happy when things improve and think the suggested alternatives would be worse.
How would you "abuse" an economic method that applies the scientific method? You cannot lobby or spin your way around scientific findings, in a democratic process of informed participants.

The only "abuse" I can think of is well, if a faction or irrationals such a religious one, or one seeking to maintain a lopsided power dynamic such as anarchocapitalists, would violently seek to stop it.

You cannot corrupt the scientific process itself however, if it is adhered to. You can try to fake findings, they will be caught in time. You can try to misrepresent them, it will not stand up under professional scrutiny by peers.

Unlike the political lobbying of corporations today, devoid of reason or interest for the common good, I might add.
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Last edited by miffy23; 01-31-2015 at 06:18 PM..
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  #253  
Old 02-07-2015, 02:31 AM
Naraku Naraku is offline

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Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
Now I remember why I don't post in General Discussion anymore.

Kill all Forsaken.
It is wonderful if people acknowledge that they are experts in simplified fantasy conflicts and constantly throw "Kill all (insert cartoonish villain race)" around, but fail at examining complex political conflicts.

Last edited by Naraku; 02-07-2015 at 02:33 AM..
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  #254  
Old 02-07-2015, 08:18 AM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

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Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
So you propose everything should stay the way it is?
Those terrible abuses you mention are systemic, they are inherent to the nature of the environment we foster. Our economy rewards greed, inhumane and detached. The livelihoods and sustenance of entire populations are shoved back forth across tables on the stock exchange in a perverse, insane game of literal life and death, in the name of numbers on a sheet somewhere.

The idealistic concept of the good capitalistic competitive environment that nurturs progress and averages out in everyone's benefit has been so far gone for so long, is so lopsided in it's real world application, that it has become a veritable living and breathing dystopia.

It is because at it's very core, the notion of needing to maintain control of a scarce resource is one of survival of the fittest, in a perverse sense. Throughout history when we weren't able to actually produce an abundance or sustain our resources, capitalism served it's purpose by motivating a more-or-less efficient use of resources. Yet now, we are at a point in time where scarcity is no longer something we need deal with - except to create profit. The economy today works in two ways: profits based on real scarcity (oil, gas, natural resources) and fabricated scarcity through suggested demand (marketing, media). Neither kind is rooted in reality. We need not be dependant on oil or gas anymore, we need not "feed the economy" by buying one useless, irrelevant product after the other.

Capitalism has not only become outdated and outgrown by our technological capacities, it has become a real danger to our continued development.
This is why I say you hate capitalism. *points above* You see -nothing- good about it, only the negative aspects. EVERY economic system has negative aspects,. Even your RBE has negative aspects, if only because it would be run by humans.


Quote:
Errr no?
Yes, we know more about treating soil well. That doesn't change the fact that companies like Monsanto have killed vast stretches of formerly useful prairie land with monocultures, thus creating the basis for these dust bowls.

Any capable ecologist will quickly and easily explain to you how monocultures in agriculture are death to the soil you plant on, and rapidly destroy biological diversity, as well as dramatically shifting the climate conditions of the area.
There have been dustbowls before, and times of short severe droughts. Dustbowls aren't a strictly, or mostly human caused event.



Quote:
How would you "abuse" an economic method that applies the scientific method? You cannot lobby or spin your way around scientific findings, in a democratic process of informed participants.

The only "abuse" I can think of is well, if a faction or irrationals such a religious one, or one seeking to maintain a lopsided power dynamic such as anarchocapitalists, would violently seek to stop it.

You cannot corrupt the scientific process itself however, if it is adhered to. You can try to fake findings, they will be caught in time. You can try to misrepresent them, it will not stand up under professional scrutiny by peers.

Unlike the political lobbying of corporations today, devoid of reason or interest for the common good, I might add.
Abuse in that those controlling it deciding -they- know better how to use the resources, or they favor using more for a certain area or ethnic group.. It doesn't have to be because they are anarchocapitalists (odd word) or capitalists of any form. You are automatically assuming that those running the RBE would be doing it solely for the best interests of the human race and planet. You keep forgetting that PEOPLE can and will screw up anything like that and there -will- be corruption among those who run the RBE simply because there will be those who favor certain ethnic groups/regions of the world or will get some form of kickbacks (special luxuries that the area makes, but isn't considered sustainable or viable by a RBE. There will be lobbying groups of a sort pressuring the rulers to do things -this- way or -that- way rather than -that- way.

You're also assuming that the citizens of the RBE world will be satisfied and happy at the results of said world. Many will likely want more stuff than the RBE considers safe to have/make. Once the basics are satisfied, most people will start to look at getting luxuries. Your RBE can't satisfy that demand, especially since that demand will be so different depending on what part of the world you're in.
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  #255  
Old 02-07-2015, 09:01 AM
miffy23 miffy23 is offline

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Originally Posted by Kynrind View Post
This is why I say you hate capitalism. *points above* You see -nothing- good about it, only the negative aspects. EVERY economic system has negative aspects,. Even your RBE has negative aspects, if only because it would be run by humans.
What kind of point is this? Of course it's run by humans, so? So is capitalism.

How do I "hate" capitalism? Is that the only thing you take away after reading my multiple arguments against it as our current economic system? It is outdated, inefficient, wasteful and actively harming our society. The only reason we are still in is being used to it and that it creates a powerbase for a small percentage of the population, which strives to keep this status quo.

As I pointed out multiple times, nothing is perfect, and an RBE is certainly not the ONLY or the BEST answer. It's simply a good deal BETTER than what we currently have. Most importantly because the main goal is to strive for the goals we should be striving for, instead of profit.

I don't "hate" capitalism anymore than I "hate" an inanimate object.




Quote:
There have been dustbowls before, and times of short severe droughts. Dustbowls aren't a strictly, or mostly human caused event.
No they're not, and yes, there have been. This doesn't change the fact that agricultural ventures such as Monsanto contribute to these climate effects significantly. A short google search will help you understand why monocultures and our industrial approach to agriculture are literally ruining our ecosystem, and how it will affect generations to come.



Quote:
Abuse in that those controlling it deciding -they- know better how to use the resources, or they favor using more for a certain area or ethnic group.. It doesn't have to be because they are anarchocapitalists (odd word) or capitalists of any form. You are automatically assuming that those running the RBE would be doing it solely for the best interests of the human race and planet. You keep forgetting that PEOPLE can and will screw up anything like that and there -will- be corruption among those who run the RBE simply because there will be those who favor certain ethnic groups/regions of the world or will get some form of kickbacks (special luxuries that the area makes, but isn't considered sustainable or viable by a RBE. There will be lobbying groups of a sort pressuring the rulers to do things -this- way or -that- way rather than -that- way.

You're also assuming that the citizens of the RBE world will be satisfied and happy at the results of said world. Many will likely want more stuff than the RBE considers safe to have/make. Once the basics are satisfied, most people will start to look at getting luxuries. Your RBE can't satisfy that demand, especially since that demand will be so different depending on what part of the world you're in.
You're again basing your entire presumption on an RBE being implemented immediately, for everyone, under use of force, and with some elusive group controlling everything.

You don't seem to understand that an RBE is trying to create maximum abunance and sustainability as well as efficiency - this would lead to an INCREASE in technological capabilities and methods to produce goods, not a decrease. However, it is likely that in a society that adopts these principles over generations, things like marketing and creating consumer demand would cease to exist over time. Why? Because there is no need for profit, ergo no need to create unecessary goods, ergo no need to influence the consumer to "want" these things.

If you're talking about things like a sports car, cigars, fancy clothes - these are all status symbols and highly affected by the state of our culture. You cannot equate what people want now, in our current consumption-driven economy, with what people MIGHT want in 2-3 generations under a different social structure.
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