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Old 04-25-2016, 04:06 PM
Shinjiro Aragaki Shinjiro Aragaki is offline

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Default Is the Cult of Personality to Sylvanas nocive for the Forsaken?

Hey.

So. Lets talk about forsaken. Are they evil or not? It doesn't really matter, the point of this post is not discuss that. It's not even discuss if their whole society needs a change. But an aspect in particular of them. And that's it the Cult of Personality to Sylvanas.

To put this easy. The forsaken talk about Sylvanas like you and me talk about a god-like being, or a saint. Almost all forsaken are undoubtfully loyal to her and aren't willing to have any other person in charge. To put this even more easy. Sylvanas is not the racial leader of the Forsaken. Sylvanas IS the forsaken.

Most of their personalities, objectives, groups, ect. Are based on Sylvanas in one way or another. The forsaken have zero independence on their own and are basically "that race that Sylvanas leads" to the point of almost being mindless.

Is this good for a race? i mean. Look at what other races with extremly charismatic leaders have happened to them, look at Garrosh for example. Almost all races that have a leader-race dynamic like that ended up being just an extension of the leader. Orcs expansionist are not orc expansionist. Orcs expansionist are Garrosh's followers. And were completly depended to Garrosh. The same way as the forsaken are.

Imagine if Sylvanas dies, for whatever reason. The forsaken are most likely going to die the next day either because the rats of undercity killed them or because they commit massive suicide.

So, lets be real here. Is really good for the forsaken have a Cult of Personality to Sylvanas? It would be better if, instead of talk about her like a demi-god, they view her as a leader?
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Old 04-25-2016, 04:10 PM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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The Forsaken aren't a race, and their worship of her is ''justified'' as the veteran Forsaken were either liberated or recruited by her during the Plaguelands civil war. The new Forsaken's loyalty seems more influenced by the Val'kyr's magic. They don't seem as bright as the old ones.
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Old 04-25-2016, 06:11 PM
Drusus Drusus is offline

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I'd like to believe it's meant to be an actual 'characteristic' of their society, but honestly it just feels like it's a semi-unintentional side effect of having absolutely zero stand-out Forsaken characters beyond Sylvanas herself, coupled with the OOC near-worship that her fanbase already have of her. They don't even have any real military figures to rally around beyond maybe Nathanos, but he's been MIA from Vanilla to Legion anyway and it's only now that he's actually doing something.

The problem is that we've never really seen or heard of much internal make-up to the Forsaken. Whilst some other races may also lack for more memorable figures, at least it feels as if they have a proper 'chain of command'. The Blood Elves had Rommath, Hauldron, the Dwarves had their Senate and now the Three Hammers, the races like Goblins with less clear-cut leadership we can at least understand have a totem pole where somebody could easily scramble to the top in their wake, the Orcs can always dredge up another Garrosh from somewhere.

The Forsaken have none of that. All we know about them is that Sylvanas sits at the top. There's no lieutenants, RAS has basically vanished from the plot after WotLK, no generals, no politicans, nobody we've even heard of running the day to day 'politics' of the Forsaken either in the background or in-game. Again. Nathanos is the closest thing and he's explicitly just her 'Champion' and a glorified soldier who sulked in his cabin in the middle of nowhere for literally eleven years.

The story needs more prominent Forsaken characters, it really is that simple. Even if it's "General Bob, the guy in-charge of the Deathguard," or "Lucy the Seneschal who deals with the paperwork."
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Old 04-25-2016, 06:19 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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Sylvanas is the Forsaken. Thats not a detriment, thats a characteristic. Queen, Savior and Redeemer.
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Old 04-25-2016, 06:38 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Maybe it's characteristic of undead, specifically undead drudges, to mindlessly obey whoever the closest authority figure is. IIRC Nyorlath suggested as much as a way to understand why their devotion transferred so easily to Garrosh in Edge of Night. Shit, this would explain why Sylvanas had such an easy time gathering up undead and installing herself as queen as they were already slavishly obedient to her even in the Edge of Night flashback to WC3.
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Old 04-25-2016, 07:02 PM
Krakhed Krakhed is offline

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A lot of people seem to assume the Forsaken are particularly loyal to Sylvanas, but they have quite a large share of traitors. There's plenty of examples of Forsaken who paid lip service to Sylvanas as long as it was convenient, and dropped that act as soon as it no longer suited their purposes.

Additionally, the new Forsaken go through a selection process where only those willing to play along stick around. It's not clear how much real loyalty they hold for Sylvanas in particular. She might be nothing more than their best option at the moment.
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Old 04-25-2016, 08:44 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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A lot of people seem to assume the Forsaken are particularly loyal to Sylvanas, but they have quite a large share of traitors. There's plenty of examples of Forsaken who paid lip service to Sylvanas as long as it was convenient, and dropped that act as soon as it no longer suited their purposes.

Additionally, the new Forsaken go through a selection process where only those willing to play along stick around. It's not clear how much real loyalty they hold for Sylvanas in particular. She might be nothing more than their best option at the moment.
1. What does "Nocive" mean?

2. This is one of the things that drives me nuts about recent lore.

Used to be "The Forsaken Are Very Loyal To Sylvanas"

Now it's...

"The Forsaken are loyal to sylvanas except for the ones who aren't."
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Old 04-26-2016, 06:55 AM
Shinjiro Aragaki Shinjiro Aragaki is offline

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1. What does "Nocive" mean?
Bad, damaging, harmful, ect.
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Originally Posted by SmokeBlader View Post
The Forsaken aren't a race, and their worship of her is ''justified'' as the veteran Forsaken were either liberated or recruited by her during the Plaguelands civil war. The new Forsaken's loyalty seems more influenced by the Val'kyr's magic. They don't seem as bright as the old ones.
I'm not saying is not justified. I mean, it's logical to a degree. But the point i was trying to make is if tha worship is really something good for the forsaken as a "colective" (if you want to avoid using the word race) or nation. Specially from a writting stand-point.

It makes Sylvanas basically untouchable because if something happens to her, it would destroy the forsaken. It also make the other forsaken characters less appealing.
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Old 04-26-2016, 01:14 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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The Forsaken as a whole have significant narrative problems that won't be fixed just by getting rid of Sylvanas.
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Old 04-26-2016, 01:22 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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The Forsaken as a whole have significant narrative problems that won't be fixed just by getting rid of Sylvanas.
You are right Fojar.
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All this faction bitching and people arguing with each other and it's Fojar of all people that comes in with reasonable positivity.
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Old 04-26-2016, 03:20 PM
Krakhed Krakhed is offline

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"The Forsaken are loyal to sylvanas except for the ones who aren't."
I'd say that it's closer to "Almost all Forsaken are willing to kiss her ass to suit their purposes. Some unknown number of them hold deeper loyalties."
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Old 04-26-2016, 05:25 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Bad, damaging, harmful, ect.

I'm not saying is not justified. I mean, it's logical to a degree. But the point i was trying to make is if tha worship is really something good for the forsaken as a "colective" (if you want to avoid using the word race) or nation. Specially from a writting stand-point.

It makes Sylvanas basically untouchable because if something happens to her, it would destroy the forsaken. It also make the other forsaken characters less appealing.
It's absolutely bad for them, Forsaken work better with a four person council. (one based on each quarter of the city)
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Old 04-26-2016, 07:42 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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I'd say that it's closer to "Almost all Forsaken are willing to kiss her ass to suit their purposes. Some unknown number of them hold deeper loyalties."
just like i tell Fojar when he says there is no proof the Rotbrains being rotbrains arent a Forsaken conspiracy to kill the non-alligned Undead

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Old 04-26-2016, 08:39 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Kill all Forsaken fans



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just like i tell Fojar when he says there is no proof the Rotbrains being rotbrains arent a Forsaken conspiracy to kill the non-alligned Undead

I guess I just don't see how a single camp of undead are a sufficient threat to Sylvanas or the Undercity that they needed to be wiped out unless the Forsaken were looking for an excuse to kill undead that didn't join the Forsaken and instead formed their own group
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Old 04-26-2016, 08:52 PM
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The forsaken do not require food, shelter, healthcare or clothes. Biologically, their intrinsic needs are already met.

In reality, authoritarian dictators who rule via a cult of personality usually do so by securing the immediate needs of a typically uneducated and poor populace, and when those things start to run out, the people riot.

The fosaken are eternally comfortable assuming they are secure. In reality, a military strongman who only cares about the military would see a peasant revolution in a second because the people are starving while tanks roll off the assembly line. But the Forsaken? As long as Sylvanas keeps them safe, militarily, they can live forever.
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Old 04-26-2016, 08:53 PM
Bullroarer Bullroarer is offline

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At this point, I don't even think its a cult of personality.

In-universe Sylvanas has risen from the grave multiple times.

She commands Val'kyr and Banshees. Val'kyr being analogues of angels.


Her voice can enter your mind as shown by Ambermill

She managed to charm an ogre, a gnoll and a bandit lord.

Sylvanas could probably kill most of the so-called gods of warcraft

In-game, most of the npcs probably view sylvanas as an angel of death.
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Old 04-26-2016, 09:16 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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The forsaken do not require food, shelter, healthcare or clothes. Biologically, their intrinsic needs are already met.

In reality, authoritarian dictators who rule via a cult of personality usually do so by securing the immediate needs of a typically uneducated and poor populace, and when those things start to run out, the people riot.

The fosaken are eternally comfortable assuming they are secure. In reality, a military strongman who only cares about the military would see a peasant revolution in a second because the people are starving while tanks roll off the assembly line. But the Forsaken? As long as Sylvanas keeps them safe, militarily, they can live forever.
If they were interested in safety you would think that they wouldn't be waging eternal-war against a more powerful foe while occupying hotly contested territory
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Old 04-26-2016, 10:05 PM
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The cult of personality is pretty bad for the Forsaken's development as a race. The real problem goes deeper, though, since the Forsaken had very little in the way of notable characters. Sylvanas is nearly the sum total of their identity, and it's probably too late to do much to fix that.

Sylvanas' actions actually are putting the Forsaken at more risk, though it's likely that most don't realize this. Hence, Omacron's point still holds: the Forsaken believe that she's providing military protection. In reality, the Alliance was only really a threat once it had become provoked, and the Scarlet Crusade is pretty much defunct.

I think much of Sylvanas' power lies in giving direction and meaning (or rather, the perception of meaning) to Forsaken existence. Without her, most would have very little to do. A few might pursue their own interests and passions, but the majority lack that kind of initiative. Instead, they'd wallow in memories of life and the general resentment that afflicts most undead. Suicide or stagnation would have been the fate of most.

Sylvanas, however, gave them identity. A poisonous and destructive one, but still better (in their opinion) than what came before. In reality she destroyed their agency and just made them extensions of her. Still, for someone without any goals, it may have seemed preferable.
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Old 04-26-2016, 10:09 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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I have never understood why people here talk like if Sylvanas was running the forsaken to the ground when at the same time you complain the Forsaken never lose. She does good things (for her people) although her ulterior reasons are asshole reasons but that doesnt make them any less good for their people

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I guess I just don't see how a single camp of undead are a sufficient threat to Sylvanas or the Undercity that they needed to be wiped out unless the Forsaken were looking for an excuse to kill undead that didn't join the Forsaken and instead formed their own group
Why are you taking in-game representation literally?
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Old 04-26-2016, 10:24 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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The Forsaken got the shit kicked out of them, just never by the Alliance player.
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Old 04-26-2016, 10:39 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Why are you taking in-game representation literally?
So it was actually a colossal army threatening to topple Sylvanas' rule? And it was single-handedly destroyed by the player in the span of a like 2 quests?
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Old 04-26-2016, 10:58 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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The Forsaken got the shit kicked out of them, just never by the Alliance player.
Well, they didnt in Stromgarde, not in Andorhal and not enough in Gilneas for the Gilneans to be able to stay there. They may lose battles but generally they end up winning.

That being said, i'm not one of the people who go around saying it lol. Just saying what i see HERE.

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So it was actually a colossal army threatening to topple Sylvanas' rule? And it was single-handedly destroyed by the player in the span of a like 2 quests?
That's pretty standard for the PC, and even then they dont do it alone.

There is nothing about toppling Sylvanas rule, just attacking Deathknell (Which was probably undefended enough given how the Forsaken were fighting in Gilneas, everything south of Lordamere Lake and Andorhal)

There is no evidence the rotbrains arent rotbrains or that the Forsaken attack was injustified. Since that is a fact, i'll refrain from further replying.

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Old 04-27-2016, 08:23 AM
Drusus Drusus is offline

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Well, they didnt in Stromgarde, not in Andorhal and not enough in Gilneas for the Gilneans to be able to stay there. They may lose battles but generally they end up winning.

That being said, i'm not one of the people who go around saying it lol. Just saying what i see HERE.
The Forsaken win, but it's usually because of some stupid plot-induced reason.

Gilneas? Crowley wants his daughter and apparently everybody else is too stupid to keep fighting even when he has his daughter back. Stalemate. Use of the plague fucked over their primary objective of claiming Gilneas a port and pretty much led to a pyrrhic victory since all those Forsaken losses were for nothing beyond getting Gilneas into the Alliance.

Hillsbrad? LOLTACTIC00LGOBLINNUKES SO WHACKY XDDDDD

Andorhal? A million Val'kyr out of fucking nowhere. Thassarian's "muh honour" Alliance-induced stupidity.

Arathi? The more 'reasonable' of their victories, since Stromgarde's forces were being fucked on all sides before the Forsaken even showed up in force. Stromgarde's forces were pretty much non-existant. A small holdout in its capital city and the aptly titled Refuge Pointe. The Syndicate were more of a threat (where the fuck are those guys anyway?). At least Galen's Fall implies he rode out and got killed in battle for his trouble, which I honestly prefer to the rest of the Forsaken's moronic wins.

Her fanbase and the story keeps trying to paint Sylvanas as some sort of tactical genius, but what victories she actually has stem from the PC being given a plot device and told to point it at the Alliance.
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Old 04-27-2016, 09:54 AM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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Cool but my point is that she isnt running the Forsaken to the ground, not if she is a "tactical genius" or not (although lorewise i think she is supossed to be, im not sure)
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Old 04-27-2016, 10:14 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Cool but my point is that she isnt running the Forsaken to the ground, not if she is a "tactical genius" or not (although lorewise i think she is supossed to be, im not sure)
No but she's making them stagnate, behave nonsensically, and be boring.
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