Scrolls of Lore Forums  

Go Back   Scrolls of Lore Forums > WarCraft Discussion > WarCraft Lore Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #26  
Old 12-20-2017, 12:41 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

Eternal
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 4,991

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
Yes and no.

It's true that the night elves lost their lands because they were on the wrong continents, not because of their stagnation or because they didn't use arcane magic.

It's also true that the Alliance could out-innovate the Horde all they want, and they'd still lose if that's what Blizzard's current plot demands.

But if this were not a game, if this were history instead of fiction, then, my points would all be valid reasons why the night elves should have been more open to arcane magic. That is why I believe that lorewise, it would be the right move.

You are also right that such a move would not automatically translate to a better fortune for the night elves given that their fate would still be in the hands of Blizzard, but that holds true for any suggestion in this thread.
I'd also point out that technically, any fictional universe has and will have its contents dictated by its writer(s), however, that does not mean we can't look at things from an in-universe perspective and formulate how we think things should go onwards based off of how they are now.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 12-20-2017, 12:44 PM
Aram Aram is offline

Banished
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: South Korea
Posts: 228

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deicide View Post
Personally, if they are going to move to Eastern Kingdoms, I think Duskwood is the perfect place.
Hinterlands with Jintha'Alor as mini-capital. At least it's in my concept.😁
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 12-20-2017, 12:49 PM
Deicide Deicide is offline

Arch-Druid
Deicide's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Brazil
Posts: 2,230

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhllor View Post
I thought so but that place is an integral part of the kingdom of Stormwind
if they moved to that place it would give me the feeling that they became vassals of anduin and not an independent kingdom
I see the Alliance (and Anduin) as the kind of group that would gladly give land to its allies.

But how much of a vassalage that would be depends on Blizzard's writing...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aram View Post
Hinterlands with Jintha'Alor as mini-capital. At least it's in my concept.😁
Hinterlands is too crowded (for a forested region), considering we have forest trolls, revantusk trolls, wildhammer dwarves and even high elves there.

I always thought the high elves would end up there, either making Quel'danil grow into a small town or settling in Seradane, while Jintha'alor is taken by the Revantusk in the name of the Horde.
__________________
- Sorry for any typos; english's not my primary language.

- A better signature coming soon(ish).
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 12-20-2017, 12:50 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

Eternal
Ethenil's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,670

Default

Aye, fully agree with Marthen, Asterisk and Nazja! I've stated many times that I'd like to see:

Eldre'Thalas be repopulated and turned into the new kaldorei capital, using the new architecture and themes Blizz had in Suramar and Azsuna. There could be a Great Tree alike the Arcan'dor, a symbol for the union of the arcane and nature.* Alternatively, I'd like to see Moon Guard Stronghold be garrisoned by the kaldorei, perhaps as a bastion to protect Val'sharah against the Shal'dorei.

The kaldorei society could have the druids on one side, the mages on the other, and the Priesthood of Elune together wit the Druids of the Stars in the center, balancing both.

I don't blame the night elves for banning the arcane completely. They had passed through a traumatizing, literally world-breaking war because of that unhinged arcane abuse. Nevertheless, ten thousand years have passed and the world has changed a lot, especially now that the Legion has been defeated. Embrace the full spectrum of Elune.

* Specifically, I'd have the west and east wings each be given to druids and magi respectively, with the Elunites in the center. Void elves could also have a presence, a testament to Elune's dark side.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 12-20-2017, 12:53 PM
Aram Aram is offline

Banished
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: South Korea
Posts: 228

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deicide View Post
Hinterlands is too crowded (for a forested region), considering we have forest trolls, revantusk trolls, wildhammer dwarves and even high elves there.

I always thought the high elves would end up there, either making Quel'danil grow into a small town or settling in Seradane, while Jintha'alor is taken by the Revantusk in the name of the Horde.
There is no Horde or Revantusk anymore, so Night Elves can find there new home with help of Wildhummers (and they can study druidism) and High Elves. But it's off topic 😅
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 12-20-2017, 01:02 PM
Deicide Deicide is offline

Arch-Druid
Deicide's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Brazil
Posts: 2,230

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aram View Post
There is no Horde or Revantusk anymore, so Night Elves can find there new home with help of Wildhummers (and they can study druidism) and High Elves. But it's off topic 😅
I never took the "each faction conquers the whole continent" seriously. I think each will just take down the major holds and military powers on its way to conquest, while the opposing faction will retreat to hard-to-reach settlements, forests and mountains.

My bets:

For Kalimdor, Astranaar and Lor'danel will fall, but the night elves will keep fighting guerrila-style in Ashenvale, and Feathermoon Stronghold will remain.

For Eastern Kingdoms, Alliance will take Stromgarde, Tarren Mill will fall. The forsaken will run to Ghostlands and Silverpine. Hinterlands will be mostly ignored, and the revantusk will remain there doing their small skirmishes with the Aerie Peak.
__________________
- Sorry for any typos; english's not my primary language.

- A better signature coming soon(ish).
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 12-20-2017, 01:12 PM
Rhllor Rhllor is offline

Arch-Druid
Rhllor's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,037

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deicide View Post
I see the Alliance (and Anduin) as the kind of group that would gladly give land to its allies.

But how much of a vassalage that would be depends on Blizzard's writing...



Hinterlands is too crowded (for a forested region), considering we have forest trolls, revantusk trolls, wildhammer dwarves and even high elves there.

I always thought the high elves would end up there, either making Quel'danil grow into a small town or settling in Seradane, while Jintha'alor is taken by the Revantusk in the name of the Horde.
personally I do not like the alliance to become an empire where the holy emperor anduin rule over all races.
I prefer the concept that night elves can build their home in a place where they are not directly under the orbit of humans a place of their own and that city in the wetlands is the closest they have in the eastern kingdoms
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 12-20-2017, 01:21 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

Keeper of the Grove
Kyalin V. Raintree's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 636

Darkmoon Card: Blue Dragon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nazja View Post

But if this were not a game, if this were history instead of fiction, then, my points would all be valid reasons why the night elves should have been more open to arcane magic. That is why I believe that lorewise, it would be the right move.

You are also right that such a move would not automatically translate to a better fortune for the night elves given that their fate would still be in the hands of Blizzard, but that holds true for any suggestion in this thread.
I'm in agreement with every part of the second paragraph. So I'll focus on the first.

I'm not sure that I agree that the lore as history argument works either though. For one, the Night Elves suddenly lost a lot of what they had going for them, like the broad support of the druids and their natural allies for some reason. You could blame the decline on the adaptation of strange tactics like making skirmishers leap out in front of enemy parapets, or the lack of technological development. I'm being somewhat facetious here of course, but my point is that arcane isn't necessarily the only thing, under the framework offered, that caused the issue, and therefore isn't the only possible solution.

Extending that, you could argue (and I will) that the promise of these arcane elven societies is false. Every single one of them has destroyed itself or has gone through incredibly damaging civil wars due to arcane addiction. The 'reckless' embrace of such could similarly lead to even further ruin.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 12-20-2017, 01:39 PM
Deicide Deicide is offline

Arch-Druid
Deicide's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Brazil
Posts: 2,230

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhllor View Post
personally I do not like the alliance to become an empire where the holy emperor anduin rule over all races.
It seems that is the direction the Alliance is going, thought.

I was hoping Varian's death would lead to the High King title to die with him and a warcouncil to rise in its place, but he we are, following a boy-king because of his blood instead of any experience in battle.

As refugees, it's not like the night elves have a lot of options. They have a civilian population to tend to, harboring them in allied lands, at least until they secure some place to settle, is the smart thing to do.

Quote:
I prefer the concept that night elves can build their home in a place where they are not directly under the orbit of humans a place of their own and that city in the wetlands is the closest they have in the eastern kingdoms
Don't those lands belong to Khaz Modan, thought?
__________________
- Sorry for any typos; english's not my primary language.

- A better signature coming soon(ish).
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 12-20-2017, 01:46 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

Trade Baroness - Admin
Nazja's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: All the lands of Wonder.
Posts: 40,997

Night Elf Icon (War3)

Considering how low the population of Duskwood should be by now and that Darkshire's survivors likely won't be too keen on remaining there, I think that's the ideal place for the worgen and night elves to settle.

Or they could plant a new tree in the convenient hole where the UC used to be.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 12-20-2017, 01:48 PM
Rhllor Rhllor is offline

Arch-Druid
Rhllor's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,037

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deicide View Post
It seems that is the direction the Alliance is going, thought.

I was hoping Varian's death would lead to the High King title to die with him and a warcouncil to rise in its place, but he we are, following a boy-king because of his blood instead of any experience in battle.

As refugees, it's not like the night elves have a lot of options. They have a civilian population to tend to, harboring them in allied lands, at least until they secure some place to settle, is the smart thing to do.



Don't those lands belong to Khaz Modan, thought?
it's place is more multiracial! There is a human city, a dwarf city and a night elf city with its own rulers!
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 12-20-2017, 01:49 PM
Rhllor Rhllor is offline

Arch-Druid
Rhllor's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,037

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
Considering how low the population of Duskwood should be by now and that Darkshire's survivors likely won't be too keen on remaining there, I think that's the ideal place for the worgen and night elves to settle.

Or they could plant a new tree in the convenient hole where the UC used to be.
or they could go to valshara where they already have all the structures of their own civilization
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 12-20-2017, 01:52 PM
Omacron Omacron is offline


Omacron's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: New York
Posts: 34,378
BattleTag: Omacron#1477

Default

With moonwells and druid spells being umabiguously arcane, I'm beginning to think a soft, clarifying retcon for the night elves should be put into place; they never outlawed arcane magic, they outlawed mage-craft. Using raw, "natural" arcane magic (and it's unambiguous that arcane magic is a natural phenomenon) is fine, but using it in a studied way in the tradition of the highborne was a no-no.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 12-20-2017, 02:55 PM
Gurzog Gurzog is offline

Banished
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 14,056
BattleTag: Hulk#2393

Default

They can be the new toy producers for sticks so alliance can train their soldiers with training sticks, they are druids after all and love trees.

Also santa might need some elves for the rest of the year.

There issue solved.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 12-20-2017, 09:12 PM
Rhllor Rhllor is offline

Arch-Druid
Rhllor's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,037

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
However, with the Nightborne, Blizzard has once more shown that it can write elves well. Maybe you're right about Blizzard not really being particularly interested in sylvan elves (as opposed to magical high or dark elves), but given that, since Cataclysm, night elves (including even Maiev) have become more and more welcoming towards night elven mages, I expect night elves to move in the direction I described (magic -> renaissance) in the long run.
At least with the blood elves Blizz always did a good job.

I believe that the essence of the night elves is to be wood elves
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 12-21-2017, 02:30 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

Eternal
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 4,991

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhllor View Post
I believe that the essence of the night elves is to be wood elves
Clearly, not everyone will agree on that.

Any person familiar enough with the development of Warcraft III knows the conceptual basis for the Kaldorei were not wood elves, their conceptual basis were moral, nature attuned dark elves. The earliest concepts were rather Drowish, and although some of these themes were removed during the development, the core had remained.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
With moonwells and druid spells being umabiguously arcane, I'm beginning to think a soft, clarifying retcon for the night elves should be put into place; they never outlawed arcane magic, they outlawed mage-craft. Using raw, "natural" arcane magic (and it's unambiguous that arcane magic is a natural phenomenon) is fine, but using it in a studied way in the tradition of the highborne was a no-no.
Could definitely work.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 12-21-2017, 03:08 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

Trade Baroness - Admin
Nazja's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: All the lands of Wonder.
Posts: 40,997

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhllor View Post
At least with the blood elves Blizz always did a good job.
I don't know about that.

There were some cool concepts in BC, like the Blood Knights, but as soon as you got to Outland the blood elven story was a mess with blood elves murdering blood elven pilgrims for no apparent reason. And at the end of BC the Blood Knights and the mana addiction were a thing of the past...

Then there's Lor'themar, who had to wait till MoP to be relevant and was soon after forgotten once more, ceding his place to his girlfriend.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 12-21-2017, 04:40 AM
Deicide Deicide is offline

Arch-Druid
Deicide's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Brazil
Posts: 2,230

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
I don't know about that.

There were some cool concepts in BC, like the Blood Knights, but as soon as you got to Outland the blood elven story was a mess with blood elves murdering blood elven pilgrims for no apparent reason. And at the end of BC the Blood Knights and the mana addiction were a thing of the past...

Then there's Lor'themar, who had to wait till MoP to be relevant and was soon after forgotten once more, ceding his place to his girlfriend.
There are misteps, sure, but all thing considered, Blood elves are the most interesting race right now. And I think the reason for that is simple: they have well stablished sub-factions. Farstriders, Magisters, Sunreavers, Blood Knights, Reliquary... Each has its own leaders and characters. Each has its own identity and objectives and can be used in different situations.

I think the first step to make any of the other races more interesting is to have that internal variety. That's why my suggestion in this thread focus on improving the night elf groups: Sentinels, Watchers, Priesthood of Elune, and make proper mage, paladin and druid orders that serve the race, not neutrality, first.

This should be done to all other races. Bring back orc clans (some classic, some new), give humans variety (refuge groups from lost kingdoms, give them a proper human-only paladin order, improve the identity of the Church of the Light...), and so on.

This makes any race multi-layered and able to participate in more stories. Instead of having SI-7 or 7th Fleet in every Alliance story, put the Watchers or some dwarven military group in charge instead, and so on.
__________________
- Sorry for any typos; english's not my primary language.

- A better signature coming soon(ish).
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 12-28-2017, 07:37 PM
Krakhed Krakhed is offline

Arch-Druid
Krakhed's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,313

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
If Blizzard can make even Horde blood elves work, they certainly can do the same for Alliance night elves.
You're almost onto something, something more important than any of the arguments for deeper or more intricate lore development. Horde Blood Elves work because their image doesn't fit with the rest of the Horde. Horde Tauren and Trolls are relatively underdeveloped, because they blend in on a superficial level.

But the handling of Blood Elves isn't perfect. People have commented that they've basically just regressed into High Elves who wear red. The reason for this is simple. That's what they look like, and the writing tends to follow the image rather than the other way around. It's probably why the Orcs keep reverting to being evil rampaging bastards. It's their image, and it's hard to separate them from it.

The largest issues for Night Elves is their image, and no amount of Arcane is going to fix that. Idiots see them as standard tree-hugging forest-loving hippy elves, and that's a traditional generic fantasy race. Making them purple doesn't change enough. Of course, image isn't just physical, but actually represents everything superficially associated with the race on the surface.

The main goal should be to take this as far away from the mainstream Alliance as possible, and push it away from generic elf while you're at it. So the differences are obvious even to a complete dullard. Whatever it takes to highlight the differences is good. More complicated cultural elements and developments will likely be glossed over by quest writers, no matter how interesting. It's not like the Night Elves are exactly lacking in that department.

Races tend to get independent identity or identity as part of a group, though those are only the extremes. As there's really no faction within the Alliance with which Night Elves share themes, the Draenei not really being a good match even as part of the Kalimdor Alliance, the focus needs to be on distinguishing themselves on very clear terms. Either that, or implement more appropriate allies for the Night Elves that complement their identity.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 12-29-2017, 06:34 AM
Patrick_C Patrick_C is offline

Chimaera
Patrick_C's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 251

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krakhed View Post
Either that, or implement more appropriate allies for the Night Elves that complement their identity.
Furbolgs!

As an aside, I think Kaldorei should share with Draenei the theme of "cantankerous old race who survived at least a couple of doomsdays grumbling about these brainless youngsters", but that's just me.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 12-29-2017, 11:01 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

Keeper of the Grove
Kyalin V. Raintree's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 636

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick_C View Post
Furbolgs!

As an aside, I think Kaldorei should share with Draenei the theme of "cantankerous old race who survived at least a couple of doomsdays grumbling about these brainless youngsters", but that's just me.
I mean, you kind of already have that. The Nightborne and Liadrin (for some reason) are rhetorically gut punching them over it, and Blizzard has been hammering them for years over being "arrogant" for .... existing I guess. They're certainly in no danger of being cast in a sympathetic light for sticking to old principles, that's for sure.
__________________

Last edited by Kyalin V. Raintree; 12-29-2017 at 11:11 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 12-29-2017, 12:03 PM
Krakhed Krakhed is offline

Arch-Druid
Krakhed's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,313

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick_C View Post
Furbolgs!

As an aside, I think Kaldorei should share with Draenei the theme of "cantankerous old race who survived at least a couple of doomsdays grumbling about these brainless youngsters", but that's just me.
Yes, but that's only one point of commonality. A decent point, but not enough to make them good thematic allies. With Draenei, Blizzard had an opportunity to make a new race without any old stereotypes hindering their image. And then made them heavily Lightworshipers, to the point where people seem them as almost angelic for some reason. Draenei actually have a little more depth than that, but it's as I said. The image of a race is entirely dominated by what's at its surface.

So yes, Furbolg would be a great option for a Night Elven ally, as that could help magnify what makes them different from the Eastern Alliance. Something like Dark Trolls would have the same effect. Highlighting the close to nature/primal aspects, without encouraging the "treehugger" image.

Worgen might have sort of worked, but they're portrayed too much as "cursed humans". Worgen would probably have been portrayed much differently if they couldn't turn back into humans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
for .... existing I guess.
Pretty much. It goes with how Blizzard writes. Lots of their ideas are left forgotten or are glossed over. When someone actually uses or references them, they sometimes don't make much sense in the present context. This is where you get some of the schizophrenic writing from. The Horde hasn't been outcasts, oppressed, underdogs, or any such thing for a long while now. But they'll be occasionally treated as such, because someone recalls they were described as such at some point in time.

The writers aren't really on the same page at all. They're writing for two different Hordes. Two different Night Elves. That kind of thing. Look at the descriptions of races and how they often act ingame, and it hardly ever matches too well.

But basically, some work just needs to be done to firmly establish exactly what they want Night Elves to be, in no unclear terms, and then shoot for that. Blizzard gives Night Elves plenty of content. Trolls too, for that matter. The problem there is quality rather than quantity.

Night Elves and Trolls don't actually need more lore. It's that much of the attention they get is as neutrals or hostiles. Neutral factions tend to reinforce a passive image, while hostile factions often make them look ineffectual or stupid. If Cenarion Circle resources were utilized for the playable faction of Night Elves, it'd probably help restore their image to Warcraft 3 era. If hostile Troll resources were used for a playable faction, it'd do a lot to give them identity and make them look relevant.

So yeah. Disband the Cenarion Circle and take all your resources and Demigods back. The Horde will be getting Loa to work with anyways, and even Goldrinn is more an Alliance character than anything else. May as well make it official.

As a Horde player, I'm kind of sick of working for characters and factions that are basically just parts of the Alliance. It doesn't really make much sense. A more proper neutral faction should have more balanced themes, two different sides coming together, rather than just be a chunk torn from one faction and declared neutral.

Why should I want Dalaran, the Silver Hand, the Cenarion Circle, or whatever else I forgot? I'd rather have true neutral orders, perhaps even with internal rivalries, so Night Elf and Troll Druids could flip eachother off from across the fence and sneer at the different practices of the other races.

Last edited by Krakhed; 12-29-2017 at 12:17 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 12-29-2017, 01:16 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

Keeper of the Grove
Kyalin V. Raintree's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 636

Default

Quote:
Pretty much. It goes with how Blizzard writes. Lots of their ideas are left forgotten or are glossed over. When someone actually uses or references them, they sometimes don't make much sense in the present context. This is where you get some of the schizophrenic writing from. The Horde hasn't been outcasts, oppressed, underdogs, or any such thing for a long while now. But they'll be occasionally treated as such, because someone recalls they were described as such at some point in time.

The writers aren't really on the same page at all. They're writing for two different Hordes. Two different Night Elves. That kind of thing. Look at the descriptions of races and how they often act ingame, and it hardly ever matches too well.
I think that's being way too charitable. There has been an ongoing trend in the writing to simplify the narrative, coming down from a more rich and complex origin that the current team can't or won't support. They'll give lip service to it, but we've been on a slow march towards this for a while. It is simply easier to write the Horde as a classic orc faction and the Alliance as a classic human faction. If you're hoping to find a source for those contradictions, I would really look no further than that.

It's not hard to identify why they've done this. An executive in ATVI probably identified that, on the BCG matrix, WoW is a cash cow and that ATVI should realign investment towards the stars (like Overwatch). At the same time, ATVI has, year over year, cut costs out of proportion with their increasing revenues, which increasingly come from what returned them to profitability after 2008: microtransaction based products (you'll find that tidbit in their MG&A for the '09 10K IIRC - they're referred to as "value added services").

But, that means that it probably won't change until and unless they can identify a fresh new iteration for Warcraft. I regard that as unlikely.

So, perhaps, getting back to the thread's question, the best thing for the Night Elves would be for their future content to be put in the hands of a third party developer in a spin-off product.
__________________

Last edited by Kyalin V. Raintree; 12-29-2017 at 01:24 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 12-29-2017, 02:01 PM
Krakhed Krakhed is offline

Arch-Druid
Krakhed's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,313

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
It is simply easier to write the Horde as a classic orc faction and the Alliance as a classic human faction. If you're hoping to find a source for those contradictions, I would really look no further than that.
People have pointed out that Forsaken and Blood Elves don't fit the "classic orc faction" mold and retain an identity. And the issues with writing have been there since Vanilla. Not only that, but Blizzard is still making some interesting stories.

So, I think the issue is more about writer knowledge and investment. As an example. Trolls.

Troll players have been asking for Troll lore since Vanilla, and they've gotten it. Except what they wanted was Darkspear to be more relevant. There were writers willing to write Troll lore, and it showed up in plenty of patches, but they weren't the writers who wrote Horde questing experiences. Trolls were relevant, but not Horde Trolls. Troll lore generally came from people writing for specific dungeons, raids, or zones. All the necessary passion, effort, and storytelling is there, but not in the Horde.

The Darkspear have been seen as the worst Troll tribe for that reason. BfA is the first time the Horde will be getting proper access to all the vast amounts of lore, themes, culture, and other crap that the Trolls have been building up since forever ago.

I think the Night Elves have a similar issue. It's not that Blizzard doesn't have writers who could write them. It's not that they need new lore or new themes to revive them. Night Elves have a ton of lore. They probably have plenty of cool assets from the War of the Ancients Raid they had been planning, they showed creativity with the Nightborne, and they probably still have some cool stuff locked away with the Cenarion Circle.

It's just that the people writing the Alliance questing experiences? They don't really care, and the development you want doesn't happen unless a writer who likes you shows up. All the demand for Darkspear relevance just got us the most pointless Warchief ever, since Horde writers don't really care about the Darkspear. The people who care enough to write Trolls are those assigned to work on patches, raids, and dungeons.

Night Elves have the same issue. They'll have Tyrande or Malfurion show up if there's enough demand, but they won't necessarily care all that much about it. Someone needs to actually focus on writing and designing Night Elves if they're going to be good.

And unlike Trolls who sometimes get cool shit just to make them more interesting enemies, Night Elf stuff gets the neutral treatment instead. Dungeons and Raids get more artistic and creative effort than Neutrals or Players. Faction leaders don't even all have their own custom models yet, but each new raid or dungeon is sure to have a few.

Honestly, Garrosh and his Horde only gained some real appeal when they were built up as an enemy faction, and started pulling war machines and scorpion mechs out of their ass. Because villains get cool shit and artistic effort. Garrosh looked like a mouthbreathing ogre before he became a raid boss.

In fact, I'll recommend that right now. Want cool new stuff? Want your own racial themes to be restored or developed further? To be properly emphasized? Want new assets to be developed? More distinct personality? Get a raid where we kill Night Elves, and Blizzard has to make them interesting enemies, in an interesting zone, with good quest buildup to them.

Then you can go on envying the Raid Elves, since only they get the cool stuff. Like Blizzard is taunting you with it. I suppose that's actually the Nightborne in a way, but I mean it'd still feel that way if they used modern Kaldorei.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 12-29-2017, 03:26 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

Keeper of the Grove
Kyalin V. Raintree's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 636

Default

@ Krakhed

I'm reading a sense of cynical optimism in your posts these days. That probably should say something.

Your point on neutral and enemy content is understood, but it does go back to underline my point. Blizzard has to work on new content for the expansions, certainly, but as you pointed out with Trolls and Night Elves, their playable factions can't expect to reap the benefits of any of it. The factions are a different matter entirely, and as I've discussed, they're being homogenized because that's easier.

It's not as bad for the Horde as it is for the Alliance of course. It helps that they're usually the ones acting whereas the Alliance is the one reacting, just as it helps that the Horde is a faction chock full of subversion while the Alliance was always and will always be a sort of high-fantasy shopping cart that exists to have stuff for the other faction to threaten and take.

Now yes, it is reasonable to point out that the Horde is not as far down the road in this process as the Alliance is - but that doesn't make them immune. As was earlier pointed out, Blood Elves have largely simplified into red high elves. Trolls, Tauren and Goblins don't get lore, and in BFA it looks like the Orcs are going to just be along for the ride. That leaves "what is Sylvannas doing?" and thus far I've seen little to suggest that this is going to be anything but her show.

The bargaining at the end though - I really have to question that. Night Elves will get good content only after they get a raid? That already happened in Legion and all of that content went to the Horde. Besides, Night Elf fans have been watching their favorite race get demolished for at least eight years now - is there a point where you say "okay, you've suffered enough"?

Well, evidently not, and this is why the only future I can see for the Night Elves is one that doesn't involve this writing team or even this company. It's also why I persist in telling Night Elf fans that they should leave the franchise - because if you keep paying for this, then you will keep receiving it.
__________________
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
knife-ears, positive thinking

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:44 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.