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  #76  
Old 03-29-2014, 07:54 PM
Westlee Westlee is offline
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Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
If anything, I think that the real question is why Jaina decided to build Theramore instead of moving the survivors back to the Eastern Kingdoms where they may have a better chance of retaking Lordaeron and the Eastern Kingdoms?
You're kidding, right? That's like asking for the Horde to move back to Draenor.
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  #77  
Old 03-29-2014, 08:23 PM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

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Monsters that moved to a new continent with the intent to be away from humanity. If anything, I think that the real question is why Jaina decided to build Theramore instead of moving the survivors back to the Eastern Kingdoms where they may have a better chance of retaking Lordaeron and the Eastern Kingdoms?
The same reason Thrall took the orcs across the sea. To escape the doom the mad prophet saw coming.
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  #78  
Old 03-29-2014, 10:16 PM
Reignac Reignac is offline

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Yeah, at the time Theramore was built everyone on Kalimdor thought the Eastern Kingdoms was totally lost.
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You know, when I put the "i hate all of you" tag in threads, I'm not trying to be funny or cute. With a handful of exceptions, I really do hate almost everybody here.

It's one thing to have problems and voice your concerns, but when you endlessly bitch day in and day out about the same tired old shit, it honestly makes me wonder why you are even here. Generally when somebody doesn't like something, they stop caring about it.

And on that note, SoL is a forum I no longer enjoy. So, I'm done here. And I genuinely think the people who have absolutely nothing at all positive to say about the game and, the people whose posts are composed entirely of whining, really consider leaving (or at least sticking to non-WoW sections). Because if you truly get no enjoyment out of WoW, then why are you here?

With that said, goodbye.
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  #79  
Old 03-30-2014, 12:22 AM
Genesis Genesis is offline

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You're kidding, right? That's like asking for the Horde to move back to Draenor.
Nope. Where is the Scourge south of the Thandol Span? Hell, there's barely any sign of Scourge presence outside of the Plaguelands of northern Lordaeron.

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The same reason Thrall took the orcs across the sea. To escape the doom the mad prophet saw coming.
They escaped the doom, and then it turned out that so did everyone south of the Thandol Span and Kul Tiras. The orcs were without a land or a sympathetic people in the Eastern Kingdoms. That wasn't true in the case of the Human Expedition. They gave up on Lordaeron the moment they decided to live in the poor lands of Kalimdor. Yet Kul Tiras, Stormwind, the proto-Scarlet Crusade/Argent Dawn, Garithos's Alliance, and a rebuilding Dalaran were still around. Would the Forsaken have been able to secure their territory if the Human Expedition had returned and rebuilt in Hillsbrad or Kul Tiras instead?

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Yeah, at the time Theramore was built everyone on Kalimdor thought the Eastern Kingdoms was totally lost.
They probably should have double-checked before giving up all hope and starting a new life. Did they not receiving any contact from Storwmind or Khaz Modan? "Hey, we're perfectly okay down here, if you need some place to bunk."
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  #80  
Old 03-30-2014, 04:30 AM
Drusus Drusus is offline

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Well, most of Theramore's population at the time were from Lordaeron. Stromgarde went to shit, Crowley's lands were presumably fucked and nobody had any idea what was going on in Gilneas anymore. That's a pretty sizeable population of people without a home. They've built one there, Theramore is pretty decent even if the surrounding lands aren't (it was a pretty impenetrable fortress) so why not stick around?

That, and they still need a population to keep the Alliance's only fortified position in southern(ish) Kalimdor garrisoned. I doubt the Alliance was too keen on basically giving up all of non-night elven Kalimdor to the Horde.
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  #81  
Old 03-30-2014, 04:33 AM
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Well, most of Theramore's population at the time were from Lordaeron. Stromgarde went to shit, Crowley's lands were presumably fucked and nobody had any idea what was going on in Gilneas anymore. That's a pretty sizeable population of people without a home. They've built one there, Theramore is pretty decent even if the surrounding lands aren't (it was a pretty impenetrable fortress) so why not stick around?
Stormwind. Khaz Modan. Kul Tiras. When Stormwind fell, their inhabitants went north, and Lordaeron accepted them as refugees. Why wouldn't Stormwind have done the same for Lordaeron? Theramore could have easily been built off the shores of Stranglethorn or amidst the Swamp of Sorrows.

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That, and they still need a population to keep the Alliance's only fortified position in southern(ish) Kalimdor garrisoned.
That's rather circular as far as reasoning goes.
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  #82  
Old 03-30-2014, 04:37 AM
Drusus Drusus is offline

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Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
Stormwind. Khaz Modan. Kul Tiras. When Stormwind fell, their inhabitants went north, and Lordaeron accepted them as refugees. Why wouldn't Stormwind have done the same for Lordaeron? Theramore could have easily been built off the shores of Stranglethorn or amidst the Swamp of Sorrows.
Why build another Theramore when they've got one right there? Besides, Stormwind's last colonisation efforts of Stranglethorn didn't go too swimmingly.

Stormwind (the kingdom) was suffering under the constant imminent thread of the Blackrock, Oynxia was mucking things up, Stromgarde being in ruins, nobody knowing just what was happening in Dalaran and Kul Tiras being- err, well, nobody knows, Theramore had a pretty damn sweet deal going for it. Until Garry came on the scene Theramore was pretty much the only human kingdom that wasn't being screwed over in some way.

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That's rather circular as far as reasoning goes.
Why? You think the Alliance would want to just abandon this fancy new, untapped, land to the Horde?
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  #83  
Old 03-30-2014, 04:47 AM
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Why build another Theramore when they've got one right there? Besides, Stormwind's last colonisation efforts of Stormwind didn't go too swimmingly.

Stormwind (the kingdom) was suffering under the constant imminent thread of the Blackrock, Oynxia was mucking things up, Stromgarde being in ruins, nobody knowing just what was happening in Dalaran and Kul Tiras being- err, well, nobody knows, Theramore had a pretty damn sweet deal going for it. Until Garry came on the scene Theramore was pretty much the only human kingdom that wasn't being screwed over in some way.

Why? You think the Alliance would want to just abandon this fancy new, untapped, land to the Horde?
You're missing my point, namely that they built Theramore in Kalimdor in the first place instead of establishing a home among the Eastern Kingdoms where they had more allies and better land. For all Stormwind's problems, it was still a highly stable nation. Khaz Modan was still there and perfectly fine. Kul Tiras would likely still be an active Alliance member, since there would be no need for Daelin to go looking for the MIA Human Expedition and stirring up hostilities against the Horde. If the Human Expedition set up shop in the Wetlands, would that have been bad? It would even put them in a position geared towards reclaiming the Plaguelands.
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  #84  
Old 03-30-2014, 04:48 AM
Gortrash Gortrash is offline

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Originally Posted by Drusus View Post
Why build another Theramore when they've got one right there? Besides, Stormwind's last colonisation efforts of Stormwind didn't go too swimmingly.

Stormwind (the kingdom) was suffering under the constant imminent thread of the Blackrock, Oynxia was mucking things up, Stromgarde being in ruins, nobody knowing just what was happening in Dalaran and Kul Tiras being- err, well, nobody knows, Theramore had a pretty damn sweet deal going for it. Until Garry came on the scene Theramore was pretty much the only human kingdom that wasn't being screwed over in some way.
Oh but it was.

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  #85  
Old 03-30-2014, 04:50 AM
Drusus Drusus is offline

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Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
You're missing my point, namely that they built Theramore in Kalimdor in the first place instead of establishing a home among the Eastern Kingdoms where they had more allies and better land. For all Stormwind's problems, it was still a highly stable nation. Khaz Modan was still there and perfectly fine. Kul Tiras would likely still be an active Alliance member, since there would be no need for Daelin to go looking for the MIA Human Expedition and stirring up hostilities against the Horde. If the Human Expedition set up shop in the Wetlands, would that have been bad? It would even put them in a position geared towards reclaiming the Plaguelands.
Because by the time they had built it they assumed anybody not on Kalimdor was dead and/or wearing "I love Arthas!" T-Shirts. Once they had Theramore there wasn't really much point in just abandoning it. They had the Night Elves oop north and presumably trade would be flourishing now they've the only southern link with the Eastern Kingdoms.

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Oh but it was.

Compared to the multiple invasions and/or crumbling ruins everybody was suffering from, having your nation temporarily put into martial law by a guy who doesn't really have a problem with you and then having the Horde explicitly only try and fight his men, supported by your leader, doesn't rate very high by comparison.
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  #86  
Old 03-30-2014, 04:53 AM
neoshadow neoshadow is offline

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Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
You're missing my point, namely that they built Theramore in Kalimdor in the first place instead of establishing a home among the Eastern Kingdoms where they had more allies and better land. For all Stormwind's problems, it was still a highly stable nation. Khaz Modan was still there and perfectly fine. Kul Tiras would likely still be an active Alliance member, since there would be no need for Daelin to go looking for the MIA Human Expedition and stirring up hostilities against the Horde. If the Human Expedition set up shop in the Wetlands, would that have been bad? It would even put them in a position geared towards reclaiming the Plaguelands.
didn't theramoore get built because medivh told jaina to go west?
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  #87  
Old 03-30-2014, 05:00 AM
Ujimasa Hojo Ujimasa Hojo is offline

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didn't theramoore get built because medivh told jaina to go west?


Wasn't the "survival" of the Southern continents kinds of a retcon anyways? Heck, Theramore was like the Alliance equivalent of Orgrimmar back then before it was reduced to military garrison in WoW.
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  #88  
Old 03-30-2014, 05:24 AM
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didn't theramoore get built because medivh told jaina to go west?
Medivh told Jaina to go west to fight demons but not to build a new civilization far removed from the rest of her Eastern Kingdom allies and compatriots. Fleeing to Kalimdor to fight demons made sense. Settling in Kalimdor did not make sense for the Human Expedition, especially since ships sent to their other allies likely would have reported them operating in mostly spick-and-span condition.
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  #89  
Old 03-30-2014, 05:35 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Wasn't the "survival" of the Southern continents kinds of a retcon anyways? Heck, Theramore was like the Alliance equivalent of Orgrimmar back then before it was reduced to military garrison in WoW.
WoW screwed up the whole scale of events in WC3. As of now, apparently only ten soldiers from Lordaeron actually died during the Third War, and nine of them were from natural causes.

The tenth was run over by one of Kel'thuzad's infected grain carts. By accident.

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  #90  
Old 03-30-2014, 11:28 AM
Kellick Kellick is offline

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Including every troll tribe!
Forgot to include the other caveat of "except for every Troll tribe".

Which makes it particularly perplexing when you see people rambling about how the Trolls deserve to be exterminated for being eeevil, when just about every other race on the planet has been actively instigating war against them for several thousand years.

But as Mutterscrawl pointed out a while back: You really are just trolling, aren't you.
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  #91  
Old 03-30-2014, 11:36 AM
Westlee Westlee is offline
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Forgot to include the other caveat of "except for every Troll tribe".

Which makes it particularly perplexing when you see people rambling about how the Trolls deserve to be exterminated for being eeevil, when just about every other race on the planet has been actively instigating war against them for several thousand years.

But as Mutterscrawl pointed out a while back: You really are just trolling, aren't you.
When trolls weren't fighting and eating other races, they were fighting and eating each other. And that's a fact.
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  #92  
Old 03-30-2014, 11:53 AM
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When trolls weren't fighting and eating other races, they were fighting and eating each other. And that's a fact.
Because a fact which happens to be false and explicitly refuted in a number of canonical sources is still a fact, amirite?

With the exception of the Zandalari warring against the Hakkari, Trolls against Trolls is treated as an abnormality, rather than the rule. Cannibalism, for example, is heavily implied to serve a purely ceremonial purpose (that is to say, your "killing and eating" bit sorta falls flat here). Both those things are treated as so abnormal that tribes which do deviate from those "rules" are reviled by other tribes.

At any rate, it's becoming increasingly clear that either you've no actual knowledge of canon, or no desire to discuss it in good faith.
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  #93  
Old 03-30-2014, 12:23 PM
Westlee Westlee is offline
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The Darkspear were fleeing the Gurubashi. Ritual sacrifice and canabalism was not reserved for people outside of the tribe.
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  #94  
Old 03-30-2014, 12:29 PM
Kellick Kellick is offline

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The Darkspear were fleeing the Gurubashi. Ritual sacrifice and canabalism was not reserved for people outside of the tribe.
Close. The Darkspear (as well as the Shatterspear) fled during Hakkar's original summoning, so they were fleeing the Hakkari, ie the historical hiccup and major exception to the entirety of Trolls history.

Which is all kinda moot, mind you, seeing as your original position is no less incorrect than it was when you first brought it up.
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  #95  
Old 03-30-2014, 12:30 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Close. The Darkspear (as well as the Shatterspear) fled during Hakkar's original summoning, so they were fleeing the Hakkari, ie the historical hiccup and major exception to the entirety of Trolls history.

Which is all kinda moot, mind you, seeing as your original position is no less incorrect than it was when you first brought it up.
I dunno if that's the case Kel, I always thought the Darkspear exodus was more recent than that.
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  #96  
Old 03-30-2014, 12:35 PM
Kellick Kellick is offline

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I dunno if that's the case Kel, I always thought the Darkspear exodus was more recent than that.
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The Darkspear tribe split off from the Gurubashi empire after the defeat of Hakkar the Soulflayer. The various tribes claimed territories in the vast jungles of Stranglethorn Vale but quickly began fighting one another.
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The Hakkari, too, were slain or exiled for the evil deeds they had done in Hakkar's name. Bitter and desperate, they joined the Atal'ai in the swamps and resolved to bring the bloodthirsty god into Azeroth. The green Dragon Aspect, Ysera the Dreamer, soon learned what the Atal'ai and Hakkari were working toward, and she smashed the temple beneath the marshes. To this day, the temple's ruins are guarded by mighty green dragons. Nevertheless, trolls spoke of a prophecy that Hakkar would one day be reborn into the world.
The remnants of the Gurubashi empire went their separate ways, claiming territories in the vast jungles of Stranglethorn Vale. These scattered tribes began fighting one another, and at length the Darkspear tribe left the continent altogether and settled on a remote desert island, where they remained until they joined the Horde and fought in the Third War. Today the Darkspears live along the southeast coast of Durotar.
The Darkspear fled as the Hakkari and Atal'ai flooded Stranglethorn after their defeat.
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  #97  
Old 03-30-2014, 12:36 PM
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  #98  
Old 03-30-2014, 12:37 PM
Westlee Westlee is offline
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The various tribes claimed territories in the vast jungles of Stranglethorn Vale but quickly began fighting one another.
*Cough*
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  #99  
Old 03-30-2014, 01:00 PM
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*Cough*
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so they were fleeing the Hakkari, ie the historical hiccup and major exception to the entirety of Trolls history.
*cough*
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  #100  
Old 03-30-2014, 01:33 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Since it's been going on for thousands of years now, by the reckoning of most races trolls infighting has become the norm, but back when they still had their empires troll-on-troll warfare was abnormal, as even the warlike Gurubashi and Amani nations were said to have never really engaged in any hostilities, and it turned out per SotH that the many different tribes originally formed after the larger singular tribes for whom the empires were named had built their respective nations and began segregating their own people into castes like the Zandalari did.

The possible exception might be the Drakkari, as their reason for exile is said to be that they were so vicious and brutal that the other trolls at the time wouldn't tolerate it. Nothing specific has been cited, but it's theoretically possible they might have done something especially violent and anti-troll like attacking other castes/tribes, tryingto stage a coup, or betraying the peace between the Twin Empires, to incite the Amani to kick them out.

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