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  #51  
Old 11-15-2006, 09:19 PM
Kenzuki Kenzuki is offline

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Originally Posted by Flamestrider
In game terms, that's referring to the player and NPC paladins of Stormwind and Ironforge. Tirion's New Silver Hand already is neutral.
Prove it.
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  #52  
Old 11-15-2006, 09:57 PM
ScytheRexx ScytheRexx is offline

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Originally Posted by Flamestrider
Kargath Bladefist is the exception here. Apparently, I didn't make this clear enough that he is not at all ideologically incompatible with the New Horde. In the old lore, he and Killrogg Deadeye were freed from internment on Azeroth by Thrall, and pledged their alleigance to the New Horde. This has since been retconned, but the fact that Thrall has named three places after him (Bladefist Bay in Durotar, Kargathia Keep in Ashenvale, and Kargath Outpost in the Badlands) makes it clear that he is respected by the New Horde. In an earlier post, somebody paired Kargath with Rend Blackhand. A more appropriate comparison would be to Doomhammer or Hellscream: orcish leaders who came to power in the demon-cursed old horde, but genuinely wanted to forge a better destiny for their people. He ended up on Outland instead of Azeroth, and like Grom, fell prey once more to bloodlust. But unlike Grom, he did not have Thrall's shamans to restore him to his senses. Kargath Bladefist is more of a tragic figure than a simple villain.
LOTC Game Lore, it was retconned a long time ago.

Kargath never left Draenor, in the new Lore, he has been located on Outland since the time the portal was closed. Its even said in the WarCraft 3 Manual that only Kilrogg and Grom escaped. The Dark Portal was closed since the day Khadgar closed it long ago, so even if Kargath was on Azeroth he would not return soon enough to make an entire Fel Orc army loyal to Illidan.

As for Kilrogg, he is now rumored dead since long before Thrall even left Durnholde, no one has seen him since the day Draenor went poof, not even Thrall, so his appearance in LOTC is void.

Just felt I needed to inform you that.

We don't know about about Kargath in recent lore to call him a tragic hero.
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  #53  
Old 11-15-2006, 11:31 PM
Flamestrider Flamestrider is offline

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Originally Posted by ScytheRexx
LOTC Game Lore, it was retconned a long time ago.

Kargath never left Draenor, in the new Lore, he has been located on Outland since the time the portal was closed. Its even said in the WarCraft 3 Manual that only Kilrogg and Grom escaped. The Dark Portal was closed since the day Khadgar closed it long ago, so even if Kargath was on Azeroth he would not return soon enough to make an entire Fel Orc army loyal to Illidan.

As for Kilrogg, he is now rumored dead since long before Thrall even left Durnholde, no one has seen him since the day Draenor went poof, not even Thrall, so his appearance in LOTC is void.

Just felt I needed to inform you that.

We don't know about about Kargath in recent lore to call him a tragic hero.
I know that the information about Kargath was from Lord of the Clans, and can no longer be considered canon. However, I don't think there's any reason to correct the general impressions said lore gives us about Kargath Bladefist and Killrogg Deadeye, namely that they were noble leaders rather than bloodthirsty idiots like Rend. Despite the fact that neither of them joined the New Horde, Thrall named regions of Durotar after them. This suggests that Thrall respected them enough to commemorate them. Since Thrall never actually met them, it was more likely Hellscream who told Thrall of their noble deeds.

Hellscream last saw Kargath on Draenor, and last saw Killrogg shortly after crossing into Azeroth (unless, as the Horde guide suggests, Killrogg's arrival has also been retconned). I am assuming that he would not have extolled Kargath's virtues to Thrall if Kargath had objected to Hellscream's plan to escape from Draenor and instead followed Ner'Zhul blindly.

Thus, I am extrapolating from the fact that Kargath is commemorated in WoW (which is certainly current lore) the hypothesis that heattempted to escape from Azeroth with Hellscream and Deadeye. I don't know this for sure. But I think it's a reasonable assumption.

I have just one question: Do you know that Thrall never met Hellscream? If so, where do you get that info? Or are you assuming that he didn't because it has never been mentioned?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenzuki
Prove it.
Ok.

1) Tirion Fordring IS neutral. I'm not assuming that he will be, he is. You can go up to him in-game as an orc, and he will still give you his quest. His neutrality is also motivated by the lore.

2) Tirion Fordring was kicked out of the Silver Hand, and has lived as a hermit ever since. If he had been accepted back in to the order, and certainly if he were the leader, he presumably would not be living in a tiny shack in the middle of the plaguelands. Therefore: Tirion Fordring's Silver Hand is seperate from the one operating in Stormwind.

3) The Alliance Player's Guide says that the Order of the Silver Hand is under the authority of the Church of the Light. It doesn't mention which Order. However, consider that:

a) The Church of the Light is part of the Alliance.
b) The Order of the Silver Hand to which player paladins belong is part of the Alliance
c) Tirion's Silver Hand is not part of the Alliance (see 1)
d) It makes sense if an organization within the Alliance is under the authority of another organization within the Alliance
e) It makes considerably less sense if an organization outside the Alliance is under the authority of an organization within the Alliance
f) The Order mentioned in the APG has no leader, whereas Tirion's order does.

Therefore, the Order of the Silver Hand under the authority of the Church is the one in Stormwind, not the one in the Eastern Plaguelands.

QED.
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  #54  
Old 11-16-2006, 09:25 AM
ScytheRexx ScytheRexx is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flamestrider
Hellscream last saw Kargath on Draenor, and last saw Killrogg shortly after crossing into Azeroth (unless, as the Horde guide suggests, Killrogg's arrival has also been retconned). I am assuming that he would not have extolled Kargath's virtues to Thrall if Kargath had objected to Hellscream's plan to escape from Draenor and instead followed Ner'Zhul blindly.

Thus, I am extrapolating from the fact that Kargath is commemorated in WoW (which is certainly current lore) the hypothesis that heattempted to escape from Azeroth with Hellscream and Deadeye. I don't know this for sure. But I think it's a reasonable assumption.

I have just one question: Do you know that Thrall never met Hellscream? If so, where do you get that info? Or are you assuming that he didn't because it has never been mentioned?
When did I ever say Thrall never met HELLSCREAM? I know he met Grom, what I was saying was that he never met Kargath, and seemingly never met Kilrogg. My reasoning?

Kargath was on Draenor, this is already proven.

Kilrogg has not been seen since the Portal was closed twenty years ago, by implying he has not been seen, it implies no one met him, otherwise he would have been seen. He could have always been locked in another prison, like Tol Barad or the Vault, but Thrall still will have never met him even if he was alive, since no one knows what inside those places.

Lastly, Kilrogg was a respected leader, he would have taken part in the attack on the internment camps during LOTC, even in the book, because he is just as respected by the Horde as Doomhammer and Grom. He never appeared nor lead his people. Even if it was not retconned and he came to Azeroth, he would probably have died of old age and strain from the blood lethargy before Thrall even left Durnholde.

As for naming places in Kargaths honor, that is true, but they were named these places based on stories and not actions. Nearly no one knew Kargath, and those that did are either dead or reformed his clan in order to KILL Thrall, Thrall probably only heard stories of Kargath is passing and thus decided to honor him as a "dead" hero of his people, something he will soon learn is not true.

Grom knew Kargath as a great warrior just like him at the time, but this was at a time both were wicked and cruel, Grom learned to hate what he became, but Kargath seems to have fully embraced it. Remember that Kargath is now a Fel Orc, and the Fel Orcs only exist from the orcs left behind that gave themselves fully to the demons over the last 20 years, allowing them to mutate into the spiked and red creatures you see.

Last edited by ScytheRexx; 11-16-2006 at 09:35 AM..
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  #55  
Old 11-16-2006, 09:33 AM
Sp00ky Sp00ky is offline

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Well not that much into the Silverhand but I can see that my opinion regarding the "new Silver hand" conflicts with yours, here it goes:

Quote:
1) Tirion Fordring IS neutral. I'm not assuming that he will be, he is. You can go up to him in-game as an orc, and he will still give you his quest. His neutrality is also motivated by the lore.
Yes he did aid ONE orc doing the years following the second great war, but that was becourse he saw honor in his foe and as a knight of the Silver hand he is oathbround to defend the week and cure (heal) the ill. The orc he aided could not be considered an enemie as they didnt fight eachother. Tirion aided this orc doing the entire novel (if memory serves) and handed him over to thrall (who inturn spared his life) so in my opinion he and the horde are now quit (a favor for a favor so to speak)

Also the founding of this "order" of his could be regarded as an importent event in the world of warcraft (one that will live on once WoW is over) so it would be unfair if his quests were Alliance only, I regard the hordes ability to speak with him as a game mecanism...nothing more. And I agree with Kenzuki that his position as a knight of the silverhand bindes him to the Church of light.

Quote:
2) Tirion Fordring was kicked out of the Silver Hand, and has lived as a hermit ever since. If he had been accepted back in to the order, and certainly if he were the leader, he presumably would not be living in a tiny shack in the middle of the plaguelands. Therefore: Tirion Fordring's Silver Hand is seperate from the one operating in Stormwind.
Yes you could say that his order is seperate from the one in Stormwind BUT how do you know that he know if the Silverhand still exists ? From what I learned from doing the quest he saw the Scarlet Crusade as a "succesor" to the Silverhand (one that has been corrupted) if he knew the order endured in the southen lands, he would not have named the Scarlet crusade as its succesor (as there can be no succesor before the orginal order is out of the picture) nor would he have named his order "The silver hand" as it makes no sence to have two orders with identical ideals and names.

If ask me then his order (if does have any members as of yet) will only be seperate from Stormwind until he learnes that his old order still exists and when he does that he will without daupt rejoin it.

Quote:
3) The Alliance Player's Guide says that the Order of the Silver Hand is under the authority of the Church of the Light. It doesn't mention which Order. However, consider that:

a) The Church of the Light is part of the Alliance.
b) The Order of the Silver Hand to which player paladins belong is part of the Alliance
c) Tirion's Silver Hand is not part of the Alliance (see 1)
d) It makes sense if an organization within the Alliance is under the authority of another organization within the Alliance
e) It makes considerably less sense if an organization outside the Alliance is under the authority of an organization within the Alliance
f) The Order mentioned in the APG has no leader, whereas Tirion's order does.
As I stated abow this "new" order might only exist becourse Tiron has no idea that his order endures, but to comment your alfabetic points:

a) Yes but not ONLY the alliance, The church of light is more then a factioal thing, there were high elves who worshiped the light and venorated the church of light doing the years after the second war (when Quel'thalas had left the Alliance) if the chuch of light was "Alliance only" then the high elves would not have been able to serve it.

b) True becourse they are a part of the Alliance to begin with, and by picking the paladin class they autimaticly join the order (Remember that besides the church of light the order of the silverhand is the only "school faction" where you can learn to master the gifts bestoled opun you by the light)

c) yet..

d) Indeed it does

e) Indeed it dosent...as I explained earlier then the church of light (to pick an example) can be considered as a "global" orginization (based in Stormwind) it is a part of the Alliance but people outside the Alliance can still be a part of it (lore wise, not WoW wise) and besides the Alliance has no direct athority over the church of light, it is after all a church and not a faction bond thing.

f) true aswell but as I have already said it may have that name (and exist) becourse Tiron dosnt know that the Silverhand lives on
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  #56  
Old 11-16-2006, 11:14 AM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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Yes he did aid ONE orc doing the years following the second great war, but that was becourse he saw honor in his foe and as a knight of the Silver hand he is oathbround to defend the week and cure (heal) the ill. The orc he aided could not be considered an enemie as they didnt fight eachother. Tirion aided this orc doing the entire novel (if memory serves) and handed him over to thrall (who inturn spared his life) so in my opinion he and the horde are now quit (a favor for a favor so to speak)

Also the founding of this "order" of his could be regarded as an importent event in the world of warcraft (one that will live on once WoW is over) so it would be unfair if his quests were Alliance only, I regard the hordes ability to speak with him as a game mecanism...nothing more. And I agree with Kenzuki that his position as a knight of the silverhand bindes him to the Church of light.
It is absolutely not a game mechanic. We can't walk into Stormwind and reveal Onyxia now can we? Nor can we do 'The Missing Diplomat'. These are important events that the Horde has no equivalent to. Tirion's whole ideology is that the individual spirit of a person is more important than the race they belong to.

Do you actually think Tirion did what he did so that he could get a favour from the Horde? No, he did it because it was the right thing to do. As you said, to protect those that can't protect themselves. Not "Members of the Alliance that can't defend themselves."

As for being bound to the church of the Silver Hand... he didn't listen to them in Of Blood and Honour. Why would he listen to them now? When he refounded the Silver Hand, didn't he say something along the lines of "I let petty politics force me into complacency! But no more!" or something too?
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  #57  
Old 11-16-2006, 12:12 PM
Sp00ky Sp00ky is offline

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I think you have failed to notice quite a few things here...the onyxia and missing diplomat lines are CONNECTED to Stormwind..it is about the king of Stormwind and the currant leadership of Stormwind. The Tirion line on the other hand is not connected to any spesific race or faction (as he is situated in the plaugelands as a lonely hermit) his story on the other hand is importent to the Warcraft storyline as a whole (ofcourse the two Alliance quests are aswell but as I said they focus on Stormwind)

Quote:
Tirion's whole ideology is that the individual spirit of a person is more important than the race they belong to.
True, and that idelogy is shared by the currant Archbishop, remember that the Alliance saw the orcs as little more then mindeless, bloodcrazed beasts (with good reason) so though some would say that Silverhand overreacted when they "excommunicated" him, then they sould remember that the orcs has just lead a massive campaign to esterminate humanity...though the orcs had returned to their noble ways it would take more then one "good" orc to change an opinion forged from bloodshed and battle.

Quote:
Do you actually think Tirion did what he did so that he could get a favour from the Horde? No, he did it because it was the right thing to do. As you said, to protect those that can't protect themselves. Not "Members of the Alliance that can't defend themselves."
Ehm...no...I said that he and the horde were quit..he aided the orc becourse it was the right thing to do...and Thrall and his horde spared his life, I said nothing about him doing it inorder to get a favor...how did you get that idea?

Quote:
As for being bound to the church of the Silver Hand (you mean holy light)... he didn't listen to them in Of Blood and Honour. Why would he listen to them now? When he refounded the Silver Hand, didn't he say something along the lines of "I let petty politics force me into complacency! But no more!" or something too?
First he cannot refound somthing that already exists..I stated that several times in my first post, he may think that he have refounded the order but that is not the chase. He was what some would call rebalious (spelling) in the book, somthing that pulled him into conflict with his wife at several occations..he was a victim of his nature and it was (in my opinion) only a matter of time before he would clash with the order leadership. Also remember that most of the leaders that "Excommunicated" him later founded and/or joined the Scarlet Crusade.

In my opinion he would have no trupple with rejoining the Silver Hand (the currant archbishop is a benevolent man that shares his opinions, it would only be natural)

Also I got a diffrint understanding of that line you mentioned...he wasent "complaicent" when he was a member of the order..he was the exact oppersite...not listening to the leadership, acting on his own accound, openly opposing directives and warnings from the silverhand...thats not a were "Complaicent" way of acting.

To be complaicent, is to sit on your behinde and do nothing, thinking you have played your part in history (Illidan called Magtharidon Complaitent doing the TFT campaign) Tirion spent years doing just that after he was kicked from the Silverhand, he only started acting when his son became a high ranking member of the Scarlet Crusade, now THAT is to be complaicent

Not sure what he ment about "politics" though, he could be refering to himself, the scarlet Crusade (that he chosed to ignore them do to their brutality) or it could be somthing completly diffrint. but it cannot be the silverhand..his actions doing that period would, as I just stated, contrast with his statement of being complaicent.
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  #58  
Old 11-16-2006, 01:28 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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I think he meant he was being complacent while the Scarlet Crusade was founded, refused to act against his own brothers until it was too late. He let his political obligations (being banished) get in the way. I guess that doesn't have to do much with him siding with the Horde, but my point is he'd be less likely to adhere to the political ideals of a war between the Horde and the Alliance.

Quote:
I think you have failed to notice quite a few things here...the onyxia and missing diplomat lines are CONNECTED to Stormwind..it is about the king of Stormwind and the currant leadership of Stormwind. The Tirion line on the other hand is not connected to any spesific race or faction (as he is situated in the plaugelands as a lonely hermit) his story on the other hand is importent to the Warcraft storyline as a whole (ofcourse the two Alliance quests are aswell but as I said they focus on Stormwind)
Oh no, I realize that. I'm just saying if they absolutely wanted to, they could have made the Silver Hand quest Alliance-only.

Quote:
True, and that idelogy is shared by the currant Archbishop, remember that the Alliance saw the orcs as little more then mindeless, bloodcrazed beasts (with good reason) so though some would say that Silverhand overreacted when they "excommunicated" him, then they sould remember that the orcs has just lead a massive campaign to esterminate humanity...though the orcs had returned to their noble ways it would take more then one "good" orc to change an opinion forged from bloodshed and battle.
Is it an ideal shared by the Archbishop? I don't know all that much about him. From what quests I can read he seems to want to kill the Forsaken mercily. Doesn't really mean he sees beyond appearences, though. *Shrug*

Quote:
Ehm...no...I said that he and the horde were quit..he aided the orc becourse it was the right thing to do...and Thrall and his horde spared his life, I said nothing about him doing it inorder to get a favor...how did you get that idea?
The way you worded it made it sound like there was some sort of bargain going on or something.

Quote:
First he cannot refound somthing that already exists..I stated that several times in my first post, he may think that he have refounded the order but that is not the chase. He was what some would call rebalious (spelling) in the book, somthing that pulled him into conflict with his wife at several occations..he was a victim of his nature and it was (in my opinion) only a matter of time before he would clash with the order leadership. Also remember that most of the leaders that "Excommunicated" him later founded and/or joined the Scarlet Crusade.
But is it reformed? The Silver Hand is mentioned by the Paladin trainers in Dun Morogh and Elwynn... but that's about it in-game. (And it is likely that their dialogue was written before the Plaguelands was even conceptualized.) And I guess it is mentioned in the Alliance Player's guide.

I dunno, I don't think that Metzen would have gone to the trouble to write up the rather extensive quest storyline for Tirion if he wasn't doing something worthwhile... if he was re-creating something that still exsists.
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  #59  
Old 11-16-2006, 02:32 PM
Kenzuki Kenzuki is offline

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According to the Alliance Player's Guide the Silver Hand is a branch of the Church of Light. It is currently leaderless and no one is wielding Uther's Hammer because no paladin thinks himself worthy. The Argent Dawn is Neutral, along with it's branch called the Brotherhood of Light. The Blood Knights belong to the Horde therefore the Silver Hand must remain in the Alliance. You're not telling me that all of a sudden all of these knights are just going to up and leave the Alliance do you? There is not two Silver Hands people.

The Argent Dawn is neutral true, but it is predominantly Alliance. They may even have plans to take down the Forsaken in the future if the Alliance Player's guide is true.
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Old 11-16-2006, 03:01 PM
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It's pretty unclear as of now, I'd say. How accurate is the Alliance Player's guide? Was anything in WoW revealed there first? Or is it conjecture that may be ignored at a later date?

Now, here's another question. What is the Silver Hand? Is it like the Kirin Tor, in which it refers to the ruling body of the Order, or is it more broad... like the uh... Argent Dawn? Where it is pretty much every Paladin in the Alliance?

WarCraft 3 seems to suggest the former, but WarCraft 3 also suggested that the Paladin order was likely within the hundreds, and that Paladins were few and far between.

*Ponder* Hard to tell, hard to tell.

Certain sources suggest it was broken up after Arthas killed Uther and it's ruling body. But the Alliance Player's Guide seems to disagree...
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Old 11-16-2006, 05:55 PM
ScytheRexx ScytheRexx is offline

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The Silverhand will be a mystery for a long time.

Yes, the players guide says its a branch of the Church of Light in Stormwind, but the Tirion Questline does talk about him reforming the Silverhand.

This can mean either he is making another one independet of the church, or he will make anyother faction with the same ideals.

We won't know till he shows himself agian.

Paladins have always been funny to me, so noble, and yet a lot of them were pure assholes half the time.
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Old 11-16-2006, 06:34 PM
Kenzuki Kenzuki is offline

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Taking the Silver Hand, the champions of the Alliance away from said faction is stupid. You already have a neutral group of paladins called the Argent Dawn, and you now have a Horde group called the Blood Knights. Now you want to take away the Alliance's paladin order, one that INVENTED the damn class?
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Old 11-16-2006, 06:56 PM
Flamestrider Flamestrider is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScytheRexx
When did I ever say Thrall never met HELLSCREAM? I know he met Grom, what I was saying was that he never met Kargath, and seemingly never met Kilrogg. My reasoning?

Kargath was on Draenor, this is already proven.

Kilrogg has not been seen since the Portal was closed twenty years ago, by implying he has not been seen, it implies no one met him, otherwise he would have been seen. He could have always been locked in another prison, like Tol Barad or the Vault, but Thrall still will have never met him even if he was alive, since no one knows what inside those places.

Lastly, Kilrogg was a respected leader, he would have taken part in the attack on the internment camps during LOTC, even in the book, because he is just as respected by the Horde as Doomhammer and Grom. He never appeared nor lead his people. Even if it was not retconned and he came to Azeroth, he would probably have died of old age and strain from the blood lethargy before Thrall even left Durnholde.

As for naming places in Kargaths honor, that is true, but they were named these places based on stories and not actions. Nearly no one knew Kargath, and those that did are either dead or reformed his clan in order to KILL Thrall, Thrall probably only heard stories of Kargath is passing and thus decided to honor him as a "dead" hero of his people, something he will soon learn is not true.

Grom knew Kargath as a great warrior just like him at the time, but this was at a time both were wicked and cruel, Grom learned to hate what he became, but Kargath seems to have fully embraced it. Remember that Kargath is now a Fel Orc, and the Fel Orcs only exist from the orcs left behind that gave themselves fully to the demons over the last 20 years, allowing them to mutate into the spiked and red creatures you see.
Sorry about that, I meant Deadeye, not Hellscream. I was just asking whether one of the RPG books had stated explicitly "Thrall never met Killrogg Deadeye," or if you were just extrapolating from the evidence, and I see that the later is true. I don't mean to say that I disagree with your interpretation. It's a quite reasonable assumption that Thrall never met Deadeye. And I think the most likely explanation for this was that he simply died of old age before Thrall freed the internment camps.

The last two paragraphs of your post are the ones I disagree with. I know that Thrall never met Kargath, what I was saying is that Hellscream certainly did. I find it hard to believe that Thrall's naming sites after Kargath was incidental. The New Horde named nothing after Tagar the Spinebreaker, nothing after Blackhand. No, in fact, they only named places after Durotan, Doomhammer, Hellscream, Deadeye, and Bladefist. Thrall clearly didn't commemorate these heroes simply because they were dead and they were powerful warriors. Durotan, Doomhammer, and Hellscream are characters who share some aspect of the New Horde's ideology. From this I am deducing that Deadeye, and Bladefist, the only other heroes who are commemorated, are respected not just for their military accomplishments, but because they shared this ideology.

And that's the key. It's a logically reasoned deduction, but not a fact. You say that Kargath "seems to have embraced [demonic corruption] willingly." The keyword here is "seems." We don't actually know much about Kargath. But we do know that, for whatever reason, Thrall seems to respect him enough to name a bay and two outposts after him. Personally, I don't think he would do this if he thought of Kargath as a great warrior, but a cruel, evil one.

In Lord of the Clans, Blizzard developed an intricate story that was then abandoned when the game was canceled. But that doesn't mean they completely disregarded everything the game had established. Thrall and Drek'Thar, who were created for the game, appeared in Christie Golden's novel. Gazlowe and Nazgrel appeared later, in the "Founding of Durotar Campaign." Basically, although the specific points of the story in Lord of the Clans are no longer canon, we can't just disregard the broader patterns in character development. Although characters may not have done exactly the same things they did in the canceled game, the personalities established for them have almost always been confirmed by future installments of the series. Lord of the Clans is proof that Metzen and the other people on the story team could concieve of Kargath Bladefist and Killrogg Deadeye as "good guys:" orcs who believed in a better future for their people and sought to free themselves from demonic corruption. Although the specifics of the story were changed, Thrall is pretty much the same character now as he was in Lord of the Clans. Until I am proved wrong, I'm going to assume the same is true of Kargath and Killrogg.

Regarding Kargath's transformation into a fel orc, I don't think it's as simple as "if you want it, you'll be corrupted." When Hellscream drank the blood of Mannoroth in Ashenvale, he wanted to ensure the survival and victory of the Orcish outposts in Ashenvale. His intention was not to become a servant of the Burning Legion. Something similar may have happened with Kargath. After the destruction of Draenor, the survivors of his clan still on Outland were likely being hit hard by demons, by ogres, by Lost Ones, by the Draeni, and/or by Danath's forces. Sometime later, Illidan arrives, and now there are also blood elves and naga to deal with. Kargath may have drunk demon's blood not knowing exactly what it was, or desperate to save his clan at any cost. He may not have known the consequences of what he was doing.

On to Tirion and the Silver Hand:

Pretty much, everything that Aldrius said, I would have said (and will now endorse). But I do wish to respond specifically to a number of Sp00ky's points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sp00ky
Yes he did aid ONE orc doing the years following the second great war, but that was becourse he saw honor in his foe and as a knight of the Silver hand he is oathbround to defend the week and cure (heal) the ill. The orc he aided could not be considered an enemie as they didnt fight eachother. Tirion aided this orc doing the entire novel (if memory serves) and handed him over to thrall (who inturn spared his life) so in my opinion he and the horde are now quit (a favor for a favor so to speak)
You say that as a Knight of the Silver hand, Tirion was obliged to help the wounded, and that's why he helped Eitrigg. That's technically true, but it misses a very important point. You speak as if any Knight of the Silver Hand in Tirion's place would have done the same thing, which is not true. In fact, it's so not true that the Order tried to kill Eitrigg and excommunicated Tirion. Honoring the wounded, even one's opponents, is a core value of the Silver Hand. But, as far as everybody but Tirion was concerned, that rule just didn't apply to orcs. Tirion is not "quits" with the Horde. In "Of Blood and Honor," he genuinely grew to believe that orcs are no worse than humans. On the other hand, Benedictus, like almost all other alliance leaders (excluding Jaina) has at best a deep mistrust of the Horde. These are fundamentally different philosophies.

As Aldrius has already said, there's no concievable reason Blizzard would open up a quest to both Horde and Alliance players unless the lore supported it. And, from what we know of Tirion's ideology, the lore does support it.

In a lot of different places, I see the same basic oversight. So I'm going to emphasize this point here to make sure everybody sees it. Tirion Fordring was kicked out of the Order of the Silver Hand. He was not let back in. Thus, he is not bound at all by the authority of Archbishop Benedictus. I don't know how you guys got that impression.


Regarding point a)
I will maintain that the Church of the Light is a factional thing. It is not the same thing as worshiping the Light. The leader of the Church of the light is Archbishop Benedictus. Yet Draeni worship the light, and, until recently, the Alliance had no contact with them. So obviously, the Draeni were not part of the Church of the Light during all of this. The same could be said of Silvermoon. To make an analogy, what you're saying is equivalent to saying that all Christians are under the authority of the Catholic church.

Pretty much, the Church of the Light (though not necessarily the worship of the Light) is a part of the Alliance. It is the official church of the human kingdoms, and possibly the dwarves, hardly a global or universal thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenzuki
According to the Alliance Player's Guide the Silver Hand is a branch of the Church of Light. It is currently leaderless and no one is wielding Uther's Hammer because no paladin thinks himself worthy. The Argent Dawn is Neutral, along with it's branch called the Brotherhood of Light. The Blood Knights belong to the Horde therefore the Silver Hand must remain in the Alliance. You're not telling me that all of a sudden all of these knights are just going to up and leave the Alliance do you? There is not two Silver Hands people.
No, that's not what I'm saying. I never said that the Knights of the Silver Hand described in the APG would leave the Alliance. I said that Tirion's followers, who are not in the APG, and who also call themselves the Silver Hand, are not even in the Alliance at all. I don't know the RPG books particularly well, but I do know that they're often not up to date on events that happen in WoW. So I wouldn't use them as the final, authoritative source on everything.

Lastly, we (by whom I mean myself, and I think I can speak for Aldrius as well) are in a fundamental disagreement with you (Kenzuki and Sp00ky) about the nature of a faction. I have often heard repeated "Tirion couldn't have founded a faction that already exists" and "There cannot be two factions with the same names."

World of Warcraft have made us accustomed to clear, concise divisions between factions. You can open up the reputation tab, and you will see a list of distinct organizations, each of which has an official name and specific members. But the reality, especially in a world like Azeroth, is much different. Tirion didn't officially establish anything. He assembled a group of followers, from both the Horde and the Alliance, to fight the Undead Scourge and the fanatics of the Scarlet Crusade. There is no official membership, and his followers are not necessarily Paladins. Tirion named it the Silver Hand as a form of homage to the order, which, as far as he knows, is defunct.

And in a sense, he's right. As the APG confirms, the Order of the Silver Hand in Stormwind has no leader. In response to Aldrius's musings about the nature of the Silver Hand, I would say that now it seems that the order is simply a name for the paladins in the alliance. It is clearly past its prime. The order was based in Lordaeron since it was first founded, and since then, some of its leaders have been slaughtered by Arthas, some have joined the Scarlet Crusade, and some have joined the Argent Dawn. It is an organization without the political power it once had, pretty much an extensive "paladin's guild."

So in other words, Tirion is not refounding the same faction. The Silver Hand in Stormwind refers to all the paladins in the Alliance. The Silver Hand in the Plaguelands consists of soldiers from both Alliance and Horde who believe in working together against the Scourge. They happen to have the same name.
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Old 11-16-2006, 07:13 PM
Kenzuki Kenzuki is offline

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There are NOT two Silver Hands for the love of god stop saying that! He went off to reorganize the Silver Hand not create a new damn order from nothing! Brann even says that a certain paladin in the Plaguelands could wip the Silver Hand into shape, I think he's trying to hint at something.

Also, Uther was a good friend of Tirion and he was sad to have to banish him, but he was originally going to be HANGED. Uther instead opted to spare him and just strip him of his rank and holdings. You're all acting like the Silver Hand hated him and just threw him out like a dog, that's not what happened. Uther actually did strip Tirion of the Light, he couldn't even feel it's warmth for a while, he was in utter shock about the whole thing. That is until Enitrigg was in danger of dying, he then pleaded with the Light to heal him, and it granted him the power to do so.

Tirion will go on to become the new Highlord of the Silver Hand and become a champion of the New Alliance like he was always ment to be. At least that's what I hope happens in Warcraft IV because the Alliance needs champions and heroes too you know.

Edit: And where the hell do you get that The Silver Hand has Horde members in it?

Last edited by Kenzuki; 11-16-2006 at 07:20 PM..
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Old 11-16-2006, 07:33 PM
Flamestrider Flamestrider is offline

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I'll say this one more time: The RPG books are not the definitive source of lore. They don't include many events that happen in WoW. Therefore, they obviously include Tirion's new order, which he only begins to create after his son's death. What I'm saying is very simple: 1) There are paladins (i.e., Knights of the Silver Hand) who have never met Tirion and do not work for him. 2) Many of Tirion's followers are not paladins. They are obviously not the same faction. If it's the name that bothers you, you can call Tirion and his followers something else. Or you could just call the paladins in Stormwind "paladins." It's quite clear that they're not the same group.

Just because Tirion regained the power to use the light, does not mean he rejoined the Church. In WoW, we learn that his own wife told his son he was dead because his exile was such a mark of shame. It doesn't matter whether he was still friends with Uther. The fact is, he is no longer a member of the old order.

Regarding the edit: If you read what I was saying more carefully, you'd realize that I was talking about the New Silver Hand, Tirion's followers. If my orc shaman can help Tirion contact Taelan, and can then help Tirion and the Argent Dawn by heading into Naxxramas, that indicates that the races of the Horde are among his followers.

Finally, I could understand if you argued that Turaylon was "always meant to be" a champion of the Alliance. Because that is how his character was first concieved. Tirion, on the other hand, was first concieved as a symbol of a new cooperation between orcs and humans. I'm not trying to take away all the defenders of the Alliance. But Tirion, for one, was never meant to represent one side or the other.
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Old 11-16-2006, 07:46 PM
Kenzuki Kenzuki is offline

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You're entitled to your own opinion, but that's all it is. Stop saying it like this has already been done and that it's a past thing when it can be done over and over and over again. Nothing in WoW is set in stone. Stop claiming that he has horde followers when that is not known, the only little BLURB of information is when that Argent Dawn fellow warns that Scarlet Crusade chick not to cause trouble or Tirion and his knights would get him. That's IT, there is nothing else there to back up your claim. Therefore the old lore from the RPG books and everything else is canon.
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Old 11-16-2006, 07:56 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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Quote:
Taking the Silver Hand, the champions of the Alliance away from said faction is stupid. You already have a neutral group of paladins called the Argent Dawn, and you now have a Horde group called the Blood Knights. Now you want to take away the Alliance's paladin order, one that INVENTED the damn class?
It's not about taking things away, it's about Tirion not letting politics and allegiances get in his way when it comes to helping people. He's still a human hero, doesn't mean he's got to be the "Great hero of the Alliance!!"

I don't think the Blood Knights are an order, more a classification. Like the mage trainers in Stormwind. The Blood Elf Paladins are Blood Knights.

If the Silver Hand does still exsist in Stormwind, then I'm guessing Tirion will make his order independant of it. That moment where he kills that Scarlet Crusade guy is one of the most powerful scenes in the game, and if it's power is taken away then... well... that's going to suck. =\

Quote:
On the other hand, Benedictus, like almost all other alliance leaders (excluding Jaina) has at best a deep mistrust of the Horde.
Excluding Tyrande too.
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Old 11-16-2006, 09:18 PM
Kenzuki Kenzuki is offline

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Sounds like to me you would all rather have it if the Horde and Alliance didn't exist at all. Hell why don't we just all make kissy kissy faces with each other and forget all the past wars huh?

The Alliance and Horde are at the CORE of Warcraft, if you take them away you destroy the essence of the series.
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Old 11-16-2006, 09:22 PM
Flamestrider Flamestrider is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius
Excluding Tyrande too.
True. I was thinking about the humans, specifically.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenzuki
You're entitled to your own opinion, but that's all it is. Stop saying it like this has already been done and that it's a past thing when it can be done over and over and over again. Nothing in WoW is set in stone. Stop claiming that he has horde followers when that is not known, the only little BLURB of information is when that Argent Dawn fellow warns that Scarlet Crusade chick not to cause trouble or Tirion and his knights would get him. That's IT, there is nothing else there to back up your claim. Therefore the old lore from the RPG books and everything else is canon.
It all boils down to whether or not the events of WoW are canon. I say yes, you say no. I've had that argument before, and I don't want to have it again right now.

But there's one minor point I have to dispute. The fact that the events of WoW "can be done over and over and over again" should have no impact on whether or not they are lore. I can pop Warcraft III into the CD drive right now, and kill Tichondrius over and over again. Just because the events can be played again, doesn't mean they don't actually happen.
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Old 11-16-2006, 09:26 PM
Kenzuki Kenzuki is offline

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I didn't say it wasn't canon, I merely said he's going to revive the Silver Hand, not create some new organization that isn't part of the Alliance. There's your difference. Benedictus is the new Archbishop and he's a truly good man with no faults whatsoever. So I can see Tirion working with him.
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Old 11-16-2006, 09:46 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

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Eitriggs a good man (er... Orc) too, and I can see Tirion working with him too. Especially considering he saved his life.
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Old 11-16-2006, 09:52 PM
Kenzuki Kenzuki is offline

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This is another post because it's important enough. Read the following quotes please.

First this entry on the Holy Light in the WoWRPG Core book, this section dealing with the Knights of the Silver Hand.

Quote:
Although the study of the Holy Light lends itself to scholars and priests, they are not the only faithful followers. The Knights of the Silver Hand is an organization of paladins who have also studied and devoted themselves to the three virtues. It is the holy order that gives the paladins their sense of righteousness and allows a sense of community to strengthen their resolve. Although it is a proud organization, the paladins must give up a great deal to join, including their independence.
Uther Lightbringer founded the order before the Alliance launched the Second War, The paladins were instrumental in winning the war, and actually helped the Holy Light catch on with the citizenry of Azeroth when people saw the mighty paladins do battle with their holy power. In recent years, the Knights of the Silver Hand entered a dark period when one of their own, Prince Arthas, turned his back on the order in his dark pursuit of vengeance. He fully embraced the evil he thought he was hutning and became a death knight in service to the Scourge. This event dealt a great blow to the paladins of the order, as they had to watch one of their best turn into a mighty enemy. Even after the triumph at Mount Hyjal, the paladins remember Arthas's betrayle. Many paladins feel responsibility for him, because the Holy Light teaches that every person can strengthen other people. Since they were unable to strengthen Arthas, the entire world suffered.
On the other hand, some priests use Arthas as a textbook example of the power of the Holy Light. Arthas is proof of a single person's power to affect the universe in good or evil ways. The remaining knights hunt Arthas's servants, the undead, with a ruthlessness that frightens some, but they are determined to fix their mistakes. - World of Warcraft RPG Core Book - Page 170.
Then you have Brann Bronzebeard's little musings.

Quote:
There's only one person I can think of with the leadership to bring us back swinging, and he was banished from the Alliance. Shows how we treat our best. Talking about Tirion Fordring here, for those of you who read my report on the Plaguelands in Lands of Conflict -- If we actually give him some inspiration, he might whip the Silver Hand into action. Then we'd see some undead hands start to roll. -Alliance Player's Guide-Page 164.
Incase you missed that, he's hinting about the quest in WoW. He's also saying that it's the SAME Silver Hand.
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Old 11-16-2006, 10:44 PM
Flamestrider Flamestrider is offline

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He's saying that Tirion will revive the original "Order of the Silver Hand." He doesn't mention the group of both heroes from both the races of the Horde and those of the Alliance with whom Tirion is now working (his new "Silver Hand"). My point still stands. As of this point in WoW, they are two seperate factions. Brann Bronzebeard refers to Tirion in connection with Order he has nothing to do with in WoW.

I never said it was impossible that Tirion would later be accepted back into the order. But comparing the histories of Turaylon and Tirion, I think the former would be more likely to become the next champion of the Alliance.

Also, I don't see what the quote from the Core RPG book has to do with anything. I know what the Order of the Silver Hand is.

And finally, Alonsus Faol was at least as good a man as Benedictus. I'm not suggesting that, as a member of neither the Horde nor the Alliance, Tirion would cut off all relations with him. Nor do I think he'll lean more to the Horde side. I can see Tirion working with both Benedictus and Thrall. What I can't see is him charging into battle against orcish armies.
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  #74  
Old 11-17-2006, 06:36 AM
Vicious Vicious is offline

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Quote:
As of this point in WoW, they are two seperate factions.
It´s your opinion not a fact, besides not making sense, there is nothing in the game that states that.

We know from playing the paladin class in WoW that the Silverhand still exists but it´s not the faction that it once was, it has no leader, no significant numbers to make a diference and most of it´s strongest paladins are in the Church of Light in Stormwind.

Now, in the Tirion´s questline after is son his dead, he simply says that he will revive the Order of the Silver hand once again, how you think that he said that he will make *another* order with the same name but separate from the original one, i have no idea.
It will be somewhat diferent, that´s for certain, Tirion can recognize that even the demi-human races in Azeroth can be as honorable as any paladin so my guess is that the Order will be alot more tolerant than the previous one but it´s the same group.

I mean, there are Third War paladin veterans in Theramore trying to recrute more people into becoming paladins, is that the third official Order of the Silver Hand?
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Last edited by Vicious; 11-17-2006 at 09:23 AM..
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  #75  
Old 11-17-2006, 08:40 AM
Kenzuki Kenzuki is offline

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Exactly, there is NOT two Silver Hands in the world. It's the same order, he's just going to revive it and whip the paladins into shape. I wouldn't be surprised if they let Tirion take up Uther's hammer as well.
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